Olethea Counts interview recording, 1993 June 16
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Transcript
Transcripts may contain inaccuracies.
Sonya Ramsey | So could you describe the neighborhood where you grew up? | 0:00 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, it was a middle-class mixed neighborhood. | 0:04 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. Was it here in Charlotte? | 0:10 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, it was in Charleston, South Carolina. | 0:12 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. Okay. How big was your neighborhood? What were the boundaries? | 0:15 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | I would say maybe, let's see. About two, maybe six. Six? I would say six or eight. Maybe I better say eight. Because the street was two blocks long, and it was, I'd say, maybe two blocks in depth. | 0:24 |
Sonya Ramsey | Was it a segregated neighborhood? | 0:49 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | It was a mixed neighborhood. Uh-huh. | 0:52 |
Sonya Ramsey | In what ways? | 0:55 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, there were White and Blacks living, some on the same block. And in one block there was some Whites. And then in the other block there were more Whites than Blacks. | 0:56 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you— | 1:18 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | But they played with, we played together. | 1:18 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 1:21 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And then I had a couple of aunts who were dressmakers, and they sewed for very wealthy White women, in what they call The Battery section of Charleston, which is supposed to be the elite— | 1:22 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 1:43 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | —section. So I had the, we played together when the parents brought the kids with them to come try on clothes and so forth. So I had a lot of experience with White and Black. | 1:44 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you attend, you didn't attend the same schools with White children though, did you? | 2:03 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, no. I went to a Catholic school. And when I finished the eighth grade there, I went to a Presbyterian private school. | 2:06 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 2:20 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And, of course, it was all Black also. But during the years that I was there, I guess about three years, we had a quartet who traveled for the Presbyterian church. And we traveled in the Midwest, north Midwest. And, well, that was like from Chicago and that area, and then also in the Northeast. So I had the experience of living in White homes. Race was never, I never thought about it. | 2:21 |
Sonya Ramsey | As a child growing up, and you were playing with White children, did they ever make the distinction between White and Black? | 3:03 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No. No. We just played. We just played together. | 3:14 |
Sonya Ramsey | What kind of games did you play? | 3:18 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, I guess we used to play jack stones. And when it was too hot to run, and games that maybe we got for Christmas, things. When it was kind of cool, we'd play tag. And— | 3:23 |
Sonya Ramsey | You had mentioned that your neighborhood, about your neighborhood—What was I going to ask? I just slipped my mind. What, you said it was a middle-class neighborhood. What types of occupations did the people have that lived there? | 3:42 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, one or two teachers, and mostly white collar jobs. My father worked at the Navy Yard, which at that time was supposed to been a pretty good job. Everybody was very friendly. I don't know too much about what the Whites did. There was a store on the corner, and the people who ran the store lived next door in our block. And of course on the street, there were two streets boundaries. And in the middle there was a street. And they were mixed there too. Blacks lived in that area too. | 3:58 |
Sonya Ramsey | Do you know how the neighborhood came to be a integrated neighborhood? Or were most? Or were other neighborhoods segregated? | 4:49 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | I really don't because as far as I could, I was concerned it had been like that. | 4:58 |
Sonya Ramsey | Had your parents moved there from somewhere else or they [crosstalk 00:05:11]? | 5:07 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, yes. My mother lived in Brooklyn, New York, and my father lived in Charleston. My grandfather owned several houses in that area. Because he bought one for each of his children. So when my father and mother got married, eventually they moved back to Charleston. | 5:11 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. Could you describe your home that you grew up in? | 5:37 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, it was, let's see, how can I describe that? It was a nice home, comfortable home, I'd say. Nothing what you call extra fine, but very comfortable. | 5:43 |
Sonya Ramsey | You talked, you mentioned your grandfather. Do you have any remembrances of your grandfather or any other grandparents? | 6:06 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Let's see my mother's mother, who lived in Brooklyn most of her life, originally from Charleston. And my grandfather was a, well, he wasn't born in Charleston, he was born in some other little town up above South Carolina. And I can't remember where his wife was from. | 6:16 |
Sonya Ramsey | Do you remember any stories or any experiences you had with him that you like to share? | 6:42 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Most of the stories that I could remember were just stories that were told by friends of his. There's one particular friend who owned a barber shop for Whites downtown. And of course he'd come in and tell the stories. But as far as my grandfather was concerned, he never talked too much about his life. But I didn't know that his mother was a Black woman. His father was White. And it was my grandmother. I was very young when she lived in Summerville, North Carolina, which, oh, South Carolina, which was just north of Charleston. And I, well, a lot of the women were dressmakers at that time. And so then eventually she left Summerville and she moved to Brooklyn, New York. And so my mother moved there with her, and she was little girl. And of course, although she and my father were from Charleston originally, they did not know each other. | 6:58 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 8:33 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yeah, they met up there. | 8:34 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, that's nice. | 8:36 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | So that's about it. | 8:38 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. That's fine. I was thinking of growing up in an urban city like Charleston during that time. What was that like? What kind of things did you do for fun and things like that? Traveling. How did you get to and from places? | 8:43 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Horse and buggy. | 8:58 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 8:58 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yeah, my granddaddy had, I think they used to call them surreys in those days. And we would travel back and forth to Summerville. That was about, I guess the biggest place that we went. I had an uncle who was part Jewish and he had lots of Jew friends who had big plantations. And there were times when, during the summer, warm weather I'll say, why we would go out on those plantations, maybe on a Sunday and have picnics. | 9:00 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 9:50 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | So I always remembered that. My father also had a boat that, in those days, like boys now want a car when they gets 16, 18 years old, his desire was for a boat. | 9:52 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, that's amazing. | 10:12 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And he kept getting, each time he got one, he got one a little larger. And I can only remember the last one, which slept six, the six of us in the family. And we'd go out and stay several days, maybe sometime a week in the summertime, and just swim. And I guess that was— | 10:15 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. That's great. | 10:43 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | —about it. | 10:46 |
Sonya Ramsey | Charleston's such a big city. Do you remember, did you have friends in other neighborhoods? And what were the other Black neighborhoods or integrated neighborhoods in Charleston like? | 10:47 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, most of my friends were in the neighborhood. (phone ringing) A few of them were not, but most of them were in the neighborhood. | 10:56 |
Sonya Ramsey | Do you need to get? | 11:05 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, I think that's my son's phone. | 11:08 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. Okay. | 11:09 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes, his phone. I don't answer his phone. (laughs) | 11:13 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 11:14 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | He doesn't answer mine. (laughs) | 11:17 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. What were some of the other neighborhoods in Charleston when you were growing up there? And what were they like? | 11:20 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, now, this uncle that I spoke of, they lived in an all-White neighborhood, in the, I'll say, the southern part of Charleston. And because I used to go down there, they were very fond of me. So I'd go down and maybe spend the weekends, spend weekends with them sometimes. And we didn't have any problems living there. As I said, my closest friends always lived— | 11:28 |
Sonya Ramsey | In your neighborhood. | 12:03 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | —in our neighborhood. | 12:03 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. You had talked about your home earlier. Did you have any chores to do around the home and things like that? | 12:06 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Oh yes, we definitely did. And washing dishes, and drying dishes, and keeping our rooms clean. And I have one sister and two brothers, and my sister lives in eastern part North Carolina now. But when she was four years old, my mother became very ill. And so my aunt came and stayed a while. Of course, when she had to go back, she took my sister to sort of lighten the load there at home. I was the oldest and I could do a little more. She was four years old. So she was reared by this aunt in Cheraw, South Carolina. So when I finished the eighth grade at the Catholic school, then I went to Cheraw. There her husband started a Presbyterian school. | 12:13 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 13:20 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And— | 13:21 |
Sonya Ramsey | Your sister's husband or your aunt's husband? | 13:21 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | My aunt's husband. | 13:21 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 13:21 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. And he built it from a parochial school up to a junior college. | 13:22 |
Sonya Ramsey | What was the name of the school? | 13:35 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Coulter Academy. | 13:36 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 13:37 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Which was named for a woman, Mrs. C.E. Coulter, who at that time helped the Negros in the south. | 13:41 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 13:51 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Presbyterian. So I finished high school there. | 13:52 |
Sonya Ramsey | I wanted to go back and ask you a few more questions. What were the holidays like in your home? | 14:05 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, they were just very, very enjoyable. Because we'd get together and we skated a lot. Sometimes they would close our street so the kids in the neighborhood would have some place to skate. And we were big on families. We would have family gatherings. Let's see, I had three aunts. My father had three sisters, and he was the only boy in the family. Only one of that lived in Charleston. There was another aunt who lived in Sumter, South Carolina. But the aunt who had children had five children. And of course we would all get together. All us are very close. Excuse me. | 14:13 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. [INTERRUPTION] | 15:19 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. I think, before, you were talking about going away to school. I wanted to ask you, do you have any remembrances of your elementary school that you first went to in Charleston? | 15:19 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Do excuse me. Nothing that could be outstanding. It was just a very nice school. It was Catholic. And of course the sisters were very nice to us. | 15:29 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 15:47 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And I— | 15:48 |
Sonya Ramsey | Was it a all Blacks Catholic school? | 15:51 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. Yes. | 15:54 |
Sonya Ramsey | Were your Sisters, were the nuns— | 15:55 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Nuns. | 15:57 |
Sonya Ramsey | Were they Black or White? | 15:58 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | They were all Black, or some type of maybe, I don't know. I can't, I started to say Puerto Ricans, but they were sometimes some other. | 15:58 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. Okay. | 16:09 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yeah. But they were all very, very nice. And— | 16:11 |
Sonya Ramsey | Was your family Catholic also? | 16:13 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, we were Episcopalians. | 16:15 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 16:17 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | But the school was just in our neighborhood, say, and it was very convenient. And so that's why. | 16:18 |
Sonya Ramsey | Well, did most of the children in your neighborhood go, attend that school? | 16:29 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | A good many of them. Yeah. Most of us from the neighborhood went. At that time, the public schools were very poor. In fact, I don't think they went any higher than eighth, ninth grades or something like that. And then there was a school, high school in Charleston, which was, I think AME, private, Avery Institute. And so when they left the Catholic school and went to Avery. But instead I went to Cheraw. Because as I said, my sister had been read by this aunt, and she had a daughter, and this daughter had just gotten married. And so she asked my mother to let me come there and go to school so that I would be company for my sister. | 16:32 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, that's nice. | 17:31 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | So that's why I went there. | 17:32 |
Sonya Ramsey | How did Cheraw differ from Charleston? | 17:34 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, in those days it wasn't bad. Because a lot of the women in Cheraw—This is bad to say, but anyhow. Had lived one time or another with White men. And so the relationship between the races was very, very good. Had no problems at all. | 17:38 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. So this school Coulter Academy was, it was a high school, Presbyterian. | 18:11 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, it was a Presbyterian parochial school. And then he gradually built it up to a high school. | 18:20 |
Sonya Ramsey | Since your relative was the president of the academy, did you feel any special responsibility to excel? Or—over your peers? | 18:25 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, no, no, no. I never had a problem. | 18:33 |
Sonya Ramsey | What was your favorite subjects in high school? | 18:41 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | English, history. Those were the two. | 18:44 |
Sonya Ramsey | What did you and your friends do for social life at school? Things outside of your school work there? | 18:49 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, as I said, most of them were those that, as I said, neighborhood kids. So we playing, and we used to have tea parties and play with dolls and things like that. Kids. | 18:56 |
Sonya Ramsey | I mean, later when you were in high school. | 19:14 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Oh, oh, in Cheraw. When I was in high school. Well when I was in Cheraw, I was involved with basketball. I was quite a basketball player. Also I sang with a quartet that was started there. And we traveled for, as I say, we traveled for Presbyterian church. So my time was taken up. | 19:15 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. You had played basketball. Did you play basketball before you went to Coulter or you didn't? | 19:40 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No. Okay. | 19:46 |
Sonya Ramsey | And did you get to travel on the basketball team? | 19:47 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. | 19:49 |
Sonya Ramsey | What types of places did you go to? | 19:50 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Surrounding places? Not far away. Just little towns, a number of little towns around. | 19:52 |
Sonya Ramsey | Was basketball a really popular sport then? | 19:58 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes, very, very. Girls, more so than boys. | 20:00 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 20:05 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Which was sort of unusual. | 20:06 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you play any certain position or things like that? | 20:10 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Forward. | 20:12 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 20:12 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | At that time I was considered tall. | 20:16 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 20:20 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Because now kids get so much taller. Yeah. Even my sister is taller than I am. And my daughter is too. Anyhow, me. | 20:20 |
Sonya Ramsey | And you mentioned that you were in a quartet, a singing quartet. | 20:37 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. | 20:40 |
Sonya Ramsey | How did you come to be in the quartet? | 20:41 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, the Board of National Missions of the Presbyterian Church made this request that they get a group that would be able to come to a certain meeting, big meeting they were having. And she selected four girls. All soprano and alto, and I sang the higher soprano. And then there was another girl who had a very deep alto. And that was our quartet. | 20:43 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 21:28 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | We sang for years at event, and all through high school. And also my freshman year in college. We traveled that fall. So I didn't enter until the second semester. | 21:30 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. You mentioned, did you sing prior to coming to the Academy? | 21:52 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, not particularly. Just on my own. | 21:57 |
Sonya Ramsey | You traveled. And you said you stayed at White people's homes sometimes when you traveled? | 22:00 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes, because at those days we couldn't stay in hotels and things like that. So we stayed in homes. Sometimes the minister's home. And sometimes other people in the church. | 22:08 |
Sonya Ramsey | What type of music did you sing then? | 22:21 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, of course, spirituals and other types. Yeah, other types. We sang several. | 22:26 |
Sonya Ramsey | Were you, was the quartet used as a type of fundraiser or just promotion? | 22:38 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No. Promotion. | 22:42 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 22:42 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. | 22:42 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 22:47 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Promoting the work of the Presbyterian. | 22:47 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. After—hold on, let me see what else? Okay, I wanted to ask, where did the other students at the Academy, where did they come from and how did they come to be there? | 22:54 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, one girl's mother worked at the school. And the other girl, one girl's sister worked there. And then the other girl came from a small town not too far away. | 23:03 |
Sonya Ramsey | Was the quartet kind of famous around the campus? And did everybody know you— | 23:20 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Oh yeah. Yeah. Everybody knew who we were. We had— | 23:24 |
Sonya Ramsey | Were there anybody that were jealous of you? | 23:28 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, I don't think so. I don't think so. I think they were proud of us and our traveling. We had one very fun experience this particular year we were going up to Wisconsin. And we had never been in a very cold area before. And the Presbyterian church used to, the churches in the north would send clothes down to the schools to help those who were not able to. And so this lady suggested that we make our coats because none of us had very heavy coats. So she sent this gray big box of fur coats. | 23:29 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 24:36 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And we had to, with the help of the Home EC teachers, and others who could sew, we had to make these coats. And I tell you that was an experience. But they turned out much better than we expected. Because I just cannot conceive of my making a coat and wearing it. But it was funny because people would just look at, here we were kids, 14, 15, 16 years old with these fur coats on. | 24:39 |
Sonya Ramsey | Where did the other students at the Academy come from? Did they come from- | 25:22 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Around in the area. Yes, from the town and from other towns in the area. | 25:26 |
Sonya Ramsey | And as you traveled with the quartet, how did you manage your schoolwork and other things at the same time? | 25:36 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, we always had to take our books and the music teacher was our tutor. | 25:43 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 25:49 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And my aunt was the spokesman. And of course she traveled with us. | 25:54 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. I wanted to ask you, go a little bit back and ask you about what kind of values did your parents instill in you as you were growing up? | 25:57 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well they always said, "If anybody else can do it, you can do it too." And they always insisted that we do our best at all times and things like that. They always said, "Now if you can make an A, you make an A. But now if you're not an A student, always do the very best that you can." And because I always remembered that, I always told my children that. That to them, too, as they came up. | 26:12 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. What did your parents teach you or tell you about White people or segregation or anything like that? | 26:53 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, that was never discussed. It really was never discussed. Because, as I said, in those days, why you just sort of accepted what was happening. You never thought terms of so much White and Black. I really didn't encounter that until we came to Charlotte. That was about the beginning of segregation. | 27:01 |
Sonya Ramsey | I wanted to ask you after, I guess we can move on, after you finished the Academy, what did you do after that? | 27:39 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Oh, I went to Barber, which was a Presbyterian school in Anniston, Alabama and a Presbyterian college in Anniston, Alabama, for a year. And then at the end of that year why they merged with Scotia. | 27:46 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 28:12 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And that was why it was called Barber-Scotia. | 28:13 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. I didn't know that. | 28:16 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yeah. | 28:18 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. And then you moved to North Carolina, did you go to North Carolina then? After the school months? | 28:20 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. Yes. | 28:24 |
Sonya Ramsey | How did you select Barber College? | 28:25 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, I guess just my folks. It was a Presbyterian school. | 28:30 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 28:36 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Because of that. | 28:38 |
Sonya Ramsey | How did you make the adjustment from South Carolina to Charlotte, I mean to Concord at Barber-Scotia? | 28:39 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, I didn't have any problems. I get along pretty well with people, so it doesn't— | 28:44 |
Sonya Ramsey | How did the two places differ in things? | 28:51 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Both of them were very small towns, of course. And we didn't have any social life off campus anyway. So we used to come down to Charlotte, to Johnson C. Smith, to things that they had here and the fellows from Smith would come up to see us. | 28:54 |
Sonya Ramsey | Why didn't you have any social activities outside of campus in Concord? | 29:22 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, I guess there was no social life out there. | 29:27 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 29:37 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And we had to stay on campus. | 29:37 |
Sonya Ramsey | What was Barber-Scotia like, what type of school was it and things? What was your experience there? | 29:39 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | It was an enjoyable experience. We had kids from many other places, other than what I went to in Cheraw. Because we had kids from north and mid-south around. But it was fine. | 29:47 |
Sonya Ramsey | Do you have any special remembrances of your teachers and experiences there? | 30:11 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | I don't think anything outstanding, just that they were— | 30:21 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, well we like everything. | 30:26 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | That they were very nice to us. Although most of them, or practically all of them were White. | 30:26 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. How did they treat the Black students? | 30:34 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Very nice. Yeah. Very nice. That's all right. That's all right. I can get it when I go over there. | 30:35 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. On campus, what activities did you participate in on campus? | 30:49 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, I played some basketball. I played tennis. | 30:52 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 31:00 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And that was about it. | 31:00 |
Sonya Ramsey | What role did athletics play in your college experience? | 31:01 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | What other athletics? | 31:05 |
Sonya Ramsey | No, what role did athletics play? | 31:05 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Oh, well, let's see. It was number one, because we didn't play other teams. It was intramural. | 31:07 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. Okay. Were you a star basketball player? | 31:29 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, being tall was to my advantage. | 31:32 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 31:40 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | In those days I was called a very tall person. But as I say now, these kids growing as they do, honey, they're, pssh. | 31:41 |
Sonya Ramsey | How tall are you? | 31:50 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | I'm not even sure. 5, 6, two or three, something like that. And it's nothing like other kids now who have really, they used to say all the time with all the cod liver oil and everything else that they, and the exercises, and so forth, they grew taller. | 31:56 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. And then would you like to talk some more about your life at Scotia Seminary? Or what did you major in there? I mean Scotia. | 32:21 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | English. | 32:28 |
Sonya Ramsey | English. What did you want to do with your degree? | 32:30 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, teach. | 32:33 |
Sonya Ramsey | Teach. Okay. Did you have any particular high school or elementary? | 32:34 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, I did teach in elementary though school. And these were Presbyterian, what they call—Well first, my first job was in Sumter, South Carolina. And I taught English there. And then that was for a couple of years. And after that, then the Presbyterian church was opening up these mission, what they call mission schools. Rural schools out in rural areas. And you taught several grades. | 32:40 |
Sonya Ramsey | And you taught in some of the, where were some of those schools where you taught? | 33:24 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | In the community around— | 33:24 |
Sonya Ramsey | In North Carolina? | 33:27 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, in South Carolina. | 33:29 |
Sonya Ramsey | In South Carolina. | 33:33 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | South Carolina. | 33:33 |
Sonya Ramsey | What was your experience like teaching in South [indistinct 00:33:34]? What kinds of students attended your school? | 33:34 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Kids that were in the community. Because, you see, in those days that's why the Presbyterian church went out into areas like that. Because the state did not have schools. They had a few schools. And then of course another area. And then at each one of those, at each one of those schools—I can get that later. At each one of those schools, they had—What I was going to say now. Several- | 33:37 |
Sonya Ramsey | Of grades. | 34:21 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Grades. | 34:22 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 34:22 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. And most of those children went to the Presbyterian churches. | 34:24 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. Do you need to get? Do you need to get that? I wasn't sure. Okay. You were talking about the schools in Sumter, and you said that they had a lot of grades, and each school had a number of grades. | 34:29 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. And they went up as high as the ninth grade. | 34:44 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. And you were responsible for teaching in all the subjects or what subjects? | 34:51 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, mostly English. | 34:56 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you ever have to do, as a teacher in those schools, anything extra besides teaching English? | 35:06 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Oh yes. | 35:09 |
Sonya Ramsey | What type of things did you do? | 35:10 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | We had, we were responsible for maybe chapel exercises. We had chapel practically every day. And we had jobs at different months at chapel. And we had to have money raising efforts. And I worked with a basketball group there. So I guess that was about it. | 35:15 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. After that, what did you do next [indistinct 00:35:48]? | 35:45 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Next, after they closed that, our church opened what they called these missions. And I worked on those islands out from South Carolina, out from Charleston. I worked out there for about three years. | 35:50 |
Sonya Ramsey | Do you have any remembrances from that experience there? | 36:15 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | It was very interesting. | 36:19 |
Sonya Ramsey | In what ways? | 36:21 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, their beliefs. For instance, they believed in roots and— | 36:23 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay, okay. | 36:32 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And that type of thing. Well, they just had some very peculiar ways. But [indistinct 00:36:42], as I said, that didn't bother me at all. | 36:33 |
Sonya Ramsey | How did you interact with people that had those beliefs and things like that? | 36:45 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | I got along fine with them. And they grew, most of those for, well, they grew vegetables. They had vegetable farms out there. And sometimes I would bring about maybe three of the girls, three or four girls into the city, and fix a dinner for them. Just entertain them. Just to get them, have experience of getting in the city and take them around. And so occasionally maybe go for a show or something like that. And of course they loved that. But it was interesting that all these good vegetables which they would give me, and, but didn't eat them. | 36:48 |
Sonya Ramsey | Why didn't they? | 37:45 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | They just said they didn't like them. | 37:47 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, because they had to grow them. | 37:52 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yeah, I guess so. I guess so. But then, and those that did eat them, they were just fixed one way. And I was able to change up and fix them different ways, which they learned. Many of them did learn to eat them, other than just boiling. | 37:53 |
Sonya Ramsey | What did they think about education that, and schooling? | 38:18 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, excuse me. Well, they went to school because they knew they would have to go. But, of course, this was interesting too, that many of them had children. | 38:21 |
Sonya Ramsey | In high school? | 38:41 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, in elementary. | 38:43 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 38:43 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | These were elementary schools. They went up as far as seventh, eighth grades. | 38:45 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 38:49 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And as I said, many of them, they didn't get married immediately, but they had their families. And then usually they had the children for the same person, then they'd get married. | 38:53 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you ever have to counsel them about subjects like that and things like that? | 39:07 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Oh yes, I always did. But I talked, there was one young woman, a girl who was very smart. And I had spoken to a couple of the ministers in the areas, telling them that I would really like for them to go to one of our parochial schools. For this girl to go. And oh, they were very elated about getting a girl from down there to go. And finally one day the mother called me, and she told me that, well, I went out there, and she told me the girl was pregnant. I said, "Why did this happen?" I said, "She had the potentials and she could've done real well." So her answer was, "A woman have to have a man." And that was her—That was it. And then you had the experience too, of some of those kids who went around with the, slip around with the White boys in the area. | 39:10 |
Sonya Ramsey | How were they treated by the community and stuff? | 40:30 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, it was acceptable. This was just something that just happened. That was it. | 40:33 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did they have many Whites on the islands? | 40:42 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, that was, and it's very interesting also because I have been down to those islands in recent years. And all of that, not all, but most of the land down there that was owned by Blacks, now owned by Whites and they have these beaches and resorts. It just sort of hurt me to see. And what they would do, they'd come in and open a store. And of course that was a temptation for the kids to, and parents also, to buy things that they didn't grow. | 40:45 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And when they couldn't pay these big bills, and they said, "Well, I'll just take your acre of land." And I can't really remember, but one area. Now, there could, let's see now, maybe two areas. Because I have a cousin who lives out there in one area, and a couple of friends. And then there's another area, a little further down, where a couple of doctors and lawyers, they bought land out there and built homes out there. And I've been out there. | 41:25 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did the people out there on the, what island did you teach on? | 42:02 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | James and Johns Islands. | 42:09 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. Did they [crosstalk 00:42:13]? | 42:13 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | But now they've just changed. They've changed the names of those places now. And my oldest son and his wife went to visit this Jewish family last fall. And they've been good friends for years. He was saying that, he was talking about places, and I said, "I've been there as a child." And he said, "Oh you have?" I said, "Oh yes." And I would name several places. And he said, "Oh yeah," said, "John took us such and such a place." And those were some of the same places that we went to. Beautiful beaches and everything that no one lived out there. And we'd go out there, and swim, and have picnics, and things like that. | 42:13 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did the people on the island speak a different way than? | 43:09 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Oh yes. | 43:11 |
Sonya Ramsey | What types of ways did they speak? | 43:12 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Oh, they Gullah. It's a Gullah name. | 43:14 |
Sonya Ramsey | Could you understand them and things? | 43:18 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Mostly. Occasionally they would say something that I'd have to stop and think, and then they would try to explain. | 43:22 |
Sonya Ramsey | Do you know why they spoke a different way from people in Charleston? Because they weren't that far away. | 43:32 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, they weren't. I actually, I just figured that, let's see what they used to say. Something about them coming in from place, other places. | 43:37 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. As slaves? | 44:02 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. | 44:03 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 44:04 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And that was the reason it was like that. | 44:06 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. And you said you taught there for three years? | 44:10 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes, I was there, down there for three years. And then I took another job in the upper part of South Carolina. | 44:13 |
Sonya Ramsey | What part was that? What area? | 44:24 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | This was around Cheraw. | 44:25 |
Sonya Ramsey | How do you spell Cheraw? | 44:27 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | C-H-E-R-A-W. | 44:30 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. That how it sounds. Okay. | 44:34 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yeah. | 44:36 |
Sonya Ramsey | Was that when you were closer to your aunt then [c00:44:39]? | 44:37 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. | 44:39 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 44:41 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | I lived there. Well, the fact about it was while I was up there, I got married. | 44:42 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 44:49 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | My, yeah, my husband was at Johnson C Smith. | 44:49 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 44:54 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And he took the ministry. | 44:55 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 44:56 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And so when he finished— | 44:57 |
Sonya Ramsey | Was he going to be a Presbyterian minister? | 45:02 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Minister. | 45:04 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 45:04 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | So then we got married and we lived in Cheraw. | 45:07 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. How did you, you met when he was at Smith and things? When you were— | 45:09 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | In Cheraw. | 45:11 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. After that. | 45:11 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yeah, we met in Cheraw. | 45:11 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 45:11 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And the friendship continued. | 45:12 |
Sonya Ramsey | What made you select him over your other beaus? | 45:28 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, I guess one thing, he was a very persistent young man. And I really didn't think in terms of him for a good while. Because I was interested in another young man who also wanted me to marry. And we had gone as far as, he had some land, and we talked about building a house, and so forth and so on. But somehow or another, I just, after thinking things over—Well, the other young man's family were undertakers. And of course, I knew we would've been stuck in that small town. And I was not a small town girl. | 45:35 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 46:28 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | I knew that my husband had the potential of really going places. And I would not be stuck in a small town, which I eventually was. But, anyhow, we stayed in Cheraw for about four years. And from Cheraw we moved to Virginia. This was still in a small town, but I liked up there. | 46:30 |
Sonya Ramsey | I wanted to go back. Before you start there, I wanted— | 47:04 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | —school. | 0:01 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 0:02 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And in those days he was in seminary. | 0:03 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 0:04 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And in those days, why, it was all right if you married before you went in the seminary. | 0:05 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 0:11 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | But after you went in, you were not supposed to get married until you finished because you were on scholarship. | 0:12 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 0:19 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And they figured, you know, if you could support a wife, then you could pay your way. | 0:19 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. What did your parents think about that? | 0:20 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, my father had died. Well, yeah, my father had died, let's see, when I was in high school. And of course my mother went to Cheraw, and she worked in the school where my aunt and uncle were. And so they liked him very much. So there wasn't a problem. | 0:30 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. So then you said, then you could go on, you said you moved to Virginia, and— | 0:56 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Moved to Virginia. And he worked in what they call the Amelia-Nottoway larger parish, which consisted of six churches. And we worked in those six churches. | 1:00 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, he preached, or he pastored it? | 1:16 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. I pastored in those churches. And of course we worked with the women's groups. I worked with the women's groups and the young people. | 1:20 |
Sonya Ramsey | What kind of activities did you do there with them, you think? | 1:27 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, mostly we met with them, had classes, and tried to have some social, to teach them how to have social life, course Virginia, you know, it's much different than down South Carolina. | 1:30 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, mm-hmm. In what way? | 1:50 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, their backgrounds were much better. So we were there for four years and then we moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. | 1:53 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 2:03 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | We were there for years. | 2:04 |
Sonya Ramsey | What did you think about Knoxville, Tennessee? I imagine— | 2:06 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, I liked Knoxville. | 2:07 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 2:08 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | I loved the mountains. | 2:10 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 2:16 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And I didn't work the whole time. He was in school, he was getting his masters about this time. And I did work during that time. | 2:16 |
Sonya Ramsey | What did you do? Did you teach then? | 2:26 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, I did church work, what they called it, church social work. | 2:29 |
Sonya Ramsey | I remember you said you'd grown up Episcopalian. Did you have to learn a lot? | 2:33 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, when I left Charleston, I did join the Presbyterian church. | 2:39 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 2:47 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | This was in Cheraw. | 2:47 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. All right. | 2:48 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yeah. | 2:49 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. So in Knoxville, your husband passed through the church there? | 2:50 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, he worked for the Board of National Missions in six cities or towns. | 2:55 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 3:03 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And that was our headquarters, there, in Knoxville. | 3:04 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. Was there a pretty good size Black community in Knoxville and things? Or was it small? | 3:14 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, it was a good size. Yeah, a very good size. And of course, I guess now it's much different from where it used to be, because you see, they have Knoxville College there, and we lived right in that immediate area, just off campus. | 3:21 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 3:42 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And so that was nice. | 3:45 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 3:48 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | They were known for music, which I loved. | 3:49 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. Yeah. | 3:53 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And I could go to all the recitals and what have you. | 3:54 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you continue your singing after? | 3:58 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, I didn't. I didn't. I had two children born in Cheraw. | 4:02 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 4:09 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And then the third one was born in, let's see, Virginia. | 4:10 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. What time period was this? | 4:20 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | You mean years? | 4:23 |
Sonya Ramsey | Like decades. | 4:24 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Let me see, I got married in '34. I kept it a secret for two years, which was '36. And my first child was born in '39. | 4:29 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. How did you keep it a secret? What ways did you do? Did you just, you still lived— | 4:45 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well— | 4:48 |
Sonya Ramsey | —apart and things like that? | 4:48 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. | 4:49 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 4:51 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yeah. | 4:52 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did anybody— | 4:53 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | We were— | 4:53 |
Sonya Ramsey | —ever find out and stuff? Were you talking— | 4:53 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | One man suspected. He didn't know. | 4:55 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. | 4:57 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And of course this is how he explained it. Well, I was well-known because of my uncle, you know— | 4:59 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. | 5:08 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | —being the Presbyterian minister and my aunt, no. And he was a good friend. So he always called me Lee. | 5:08 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And he said, "Now Lee, you and Herman aren't fooling me. You got to be married." | 5:16 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | So I asked him, "Why?" He said, "Well, now, if you were courting, going up the steps, the young man would always help you. But Herman was going up one way. You were going up the other way." | 5:22 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And he said, "I just figured that, 'Uh-uh. They're married.'" (laughs) But he didn't really know. | 5:38 |
Sonya Ramsey | He just wanted to say that you were married. | 5:45 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. | 5:46 |
Sonya Ramsey | If you would admit it. | 5:47 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And so what happened was, he graduated like today, he's graduating like this morning, I'll say like tomorrow morning. And my mother had the announcements already made. And after graduation, we mailed the announcements. | 5:52 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 6:08 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And— | 6:08 |
Sonya Ramsey | Was that a big surprise to everybody? | 6:08 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Oh, yes. It was quite a surprise. I won't say they were, it wasn't, I guess maybe not too much of a surprise, either, because they knew we had been going together for awhile. Then when we left Knoxville, then we moved to Charlotte. | 6:13 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. Now, how did Charlotte differ from Knoxville? | 6:38 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, it was entirely different because when we moved to Charlotte, why, we lived on campus. | 6:42 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 6:50 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | He taught— | 6:50 |
Sonya Ramsey | There at Johnson C. Smith? | 6:50 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. See, he taught at Johnson C. Smith. | 6:50 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 6:53 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And so we lived on campus. That was entirely different type of life. | 6:54 |
Sonya Ramsey | And what was your role at that time? Were you teaching then? Or were you home— | 7:05 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, I— | 7:06 |
Sonya Ramsey | —with the children? | 7:06 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | I was taking care of children. | 7:06 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 7:08 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yeah. No, I taught, I guess maybe I never did teach in Charlotte. Well, I worked at a community center when I did work. And— | 7:09 |
Sonya Ramsey | What types of things did you do at the community center? | 7:27 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Excuse me. We had clubs, different type of clubs for kids. | 7:32 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 7:37 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And then after that, then they had a young woman who became ill. And the president asked me if I would, she was working one of the dormitories as a counselor. And he asked me if I would do that until she could get back to work. Well, she died. | 7:40 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh. | 8:12 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And I mean to say I just kept, I worked there, I guess, on campus, for about nine years. | 8:12 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 8:20 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And retired from there. | 8:21 |
Sonya Ramsey | What was life like living on campus with the students and things like that? | 8:23 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | I enjoyed it. Course, the kids enjoyed it. And the students were very nice, you know, to us. | 8:28 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. | 8:36 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Especially, they just loved to come, and get the kids, and take them on campus, which was a relief to me. | 8:37 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you have help with your kids when you were working as a counselor? Or how did you manage your childcare when you were working? | 8:46 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Usually I had a student who would come in and help. You know? | 8:54 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 8:56 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | So between the student and my husband, we made it. | 9:02 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 9:04 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Then they were beginning to get older, and they could do lots for themselves because I always trained them to do for themselves and— | 9:06 |
Sonya Ramsey | Now— | 9:17 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | —to help in the home. | 9:17 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. As a younger married couple with young families, what kind of organizations did you join? Or activities did you participate in? | 9:20 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, I was active. The kids were in school. The older ones were in school, we liked PTA and the YWCA. And— | 9:35 |
Sonya Ramsey | What did you do with the YWCA? | 9:41 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Just worked in groups. | 9:43 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 9:45 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | They had whatever our interest was at particular time where they needed somebody. And then, let me see, what else did— | 9:51 |
Sonya Ramsey | Were you involved in any social clubs? | 10:02 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. One is a social club at that time that I'm still a member of today. | 10:07 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. Which one is that? | 10:12 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | It's a bridge club. | 10:12 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 10:13 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And there are nine of us in that club. And— | 10:16 |
Sonya Ramsey | What's the name of it? I might have heard of it. | 10:16 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, we don't have a name, really. | 10:18 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 10:22 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | We just call it Our Bridge Club. | 10:22 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 10:22 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And our bank account, everything, it's Our Bridge Club. Everything is Our Bridge Club. (laughs) Yeah, So that was two of clubs that I belonged to. I got out of one of them. | 10:22 |
Sonya Ramsey | And why was that? | 10:46 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, I had a problem, as the boys left with transportation. And of course I would drive. I could drive, but then the meetings were late, and I just didn't like it, coming in at night. So I went back. | 10:49 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you ever join any sororities or things like that? | 11:07 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, I didn't. I don't know why. Well, I thought about it, but one thing about it, and my family's split, and I just couldn't make up my mind. | 11:10 |
Sonya Ramsey | Between which one? | 11:25 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Deltas and AKA. | 11:25 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 11:27 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yeah. So my older son married a girl who was a Delta. The second one married a girl who was a Delta. My daughter became a Delta. And the oldest boy did not join a fraternity, the second one joined the Kappas, and the youngest one joined the Kappas. | 11:29 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 11:51 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | So that was always interesting, because, you know, the kids would come over to the house. | 11:57 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. | 12:02 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | We lived in a big house down on campus. It's not even there anymore. But— | 12:03 |
Sonya Ramsey | Was that in the Biddleville neighborhood? | 12:08 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes, right across from the school. | 12:10 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 12:11 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And I had lots of company. I'd make a cake on Saturday, you couldn't find a crumb on Monday. | 12:21 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, that's nice. | 12:26 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And sometimes fellas would come over, "Ms. Counts, I got some bread, could you give me something to go on this bread?" Or sometimes, "I got a jar of jelly or a jar of peanut butter, can you give me something?" And so as a result of that, I have these young people that I call members of my extended family. | 12:28 |
Sonya Ramsey | That's nice. | 12:55 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And many of them, even, you know, up until today. | 12:55 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. | 13:00 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Why, I keep in touch. Usually on Mother's Day and Christmas, I hear from them. That's why I usually get a whole lot of cards and those times. | 13:01 |
Sonya Ramsey | Cards. That's nice. | 13:14 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | It has made me very happy. | 13:14 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did your husband participate? What activities did he participate aside from his ministerial role? | 13:18 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | He was a Kappa. | 13:22 |
Sonya Ramsey | A Kappa? Oh, okay. | 13:23 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yeah. He was a— | 13:25 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did he join while he was in school? | 13:25 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | School, yes. | 13:27 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did he ever discuss with you why he selected that fraternity over the other ones? | 13:29 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, we never. Usually they'll go along with friends. | 13:35 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 13:39 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And— | 13:40 |
Sonya Ramsey | Was he active in that? | 13:40 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes, he was active. And he was a chaplain, and he kept them straight. | 13:44 |
Sonya Ramsey | Yeah. That seems fitting. Okay. | 13:52 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yeah, he tried to keep them straight. | 13:55 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did he participate in any other, like the NAACP or any political organizations? | 13:57 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. He always was a member, but he never had a whole lot of time to participate because of the fact of teaching and being a minister. So he taught at Smith, and for many years, and he retired in about '78, and I think he died in '79. | 14:02 |
Sonya Ramsey | And you said you had how many boys and girls? | 14:27 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | I had three boys and one girl. | 14:32 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. And did they started to attend the Charlotte Public Schools? Or did they go to private schools? | 14:35 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, they went to public schools. My daughter was one of the first ones to integrate the schools in Charlotte. | 14:42 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. Could you talk some about that experience, and how was she selected, and the— | 14:51 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, what happened was, see, we lived on the end, the 100 block of Beatties Ford Road. And of course the schools were on the other, way up on the other end. And so when integration came, and of course, there was a school that was open, why, it was much closer to us. | 14:57 |
Sonya Ramsey | And it was a White school? | 15:27 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And the others. And of course we applied for the two middle ones to go there, it was Dorothy and Wilson. They accepted Dorothy, but they did not accept Wilson. | 15:29 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did they explain why that was, they only wanted one person? | 15:45 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, the principal was just as dumb as Dora, and I think he was just influenced, having a boy come in. You know? | 15:50 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. Like, "Is he— " | 16:01 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Might make a difference with— | 16:02 |
Sonya Ramsey | "—threatening or something?" | 16:04 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yeah. | 16:05 |
Sonya Ramsey | Now did your family work with the NAACP when doing this or— | 16:06 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No. | 16:11 |
Sonya Ramsey | —the other groups- | 16:12 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No. | 16:13 |
Sonya Ramsey | —as individual effort? | 16:13 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, we didn't. After this happened, they wanted to be a part of it. But see, what happened with us was we did this solely because of the nearness to the home. Because as I said, we about just about three blocks. | 16:14 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you know any other Black parents that lived near you, that tried to do that, and tried to change, petition their children to go to that school at all? | 16:35 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, there were other kids, but they didn't live near us. | 16:43 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. So could you talk some more? She ended up being the only, was she the only Black student? | 16:46 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, she wasn't. Well, she was the only Black student at this particular school. | 16:52 |
Sonya Ramsey | Because people were doing at other schools— | 16:56 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. | 16:59 |
Sonya Ramsey | —at the same time? | 17:00 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Uh-huh. | 17:01 |
Sonya Ramsey | Was this the late 1950s? | 17:01 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | There was a couple of kids who went to Central. And they were accepted in with no problem at all. And then there was a little girl who went to another elementary school. And she didn't have a problem, either. But what happened to Dorothy was the fact that after she applied and was accepted, we went down to talk to the principal. And we wanted to know, you know, whether or not he would support— | 17:02 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. | 17:42 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | —her. And of course he said he couldn't do that because, you know, there were so many kids in school and— | 17:43 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. | 17:53 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | —he just couldn't do that. Whereas the principal down at Central— | 17:54 |
Sonya Ramsey | That's elementary or junior high? Elementary? | 18:02 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | It was a high school. | 18:04 |
Sonya Ramsey | High school. Okay. | 18:05 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yeah. Both of these were high schools. | 18:06 |
Sonya Ramsey | High schools, okay. | 18:12 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | What the man did at Central the morning that these kids came to school, he just stood in the doorway. And of course, they respected him very, very highly. And he welcomed them into the school. And from then didn't have any problems. But this other man, he was scared. He was just a poor cracker who mostly was only, he worked with the people and the people that he had to work with really lived in Northwest Charlotte. And they were poor crackers. | 18:13 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 18:54 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | So I think he was just actually scared. And when she went there, why, you know, the kids, the day that she went, they just booed her, and— | 18:56 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. | 19:09 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Oh, it was just terrible. And some of the parents came out, and there were two White women, came up here from Gaffney, South Carolina. And they kept saying, "Don't let that nigger in." And, you know, things, they just— | 19:10 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. | 19:27 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | —all kind of remarks they made. And of course that just stirred up the kids. And so of course they filed the chief of police, who was a very, very, an excellent, important job, police. And he ran them out of town. | 19:28 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, that's good. | 19:52 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Wanted them to go back to South Carolina and don't put their foot back in Charlotte, you know, again. | 19:52 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. | 19:57 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And well, things didn't get any better because he didn't attempt to make it work. | 20:01 |
Sonya Ramsey | The principal? | 20:05 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Uh-huh. And she stayed there for a week, and then they would throw the chalk, and there were two, three girls that tried to befriend her. And they dared them to speak to her, and to be with her. So they said that they were sorry, but after all, they were afraid. But anyhow, when she'd eat in the dining hall, cafeteria, they would come and push you, and shove, and spit in her food and things. So then she decided she wanted to come home for lunch every day. So either one of my sons or my husband would go and pick her up. And then she came down with a virus. And of course, when she wasn't at school, either Friday or Monday, they just knew, they had run her away. And things kind of quieted down. But when she went back, then it got worse. | 20:08 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | So the reason we took her out was they began to throw things. When my son drove up to school to take her, they broke a couple of windows in the car. And they threw a piece of tin and hit her in the head. So he said, "No, it's just not worth this." And course she was a very determined person. And she held her head up, and there were several beautiful articles written about the way she held her head up, and just ignored them. | 21:20 |
Sonya Ramsey | How did you prepare her for this experience and things like that? | 22:05 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, we just talked to her, and we didn't know, and ask her if she really wanted to go. And she said, "Yeah," she was determined that she was going. | 22:09 |
Sonya Ramsey | Where did she get this determination from? | 22:20 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, she's that type of person, I guess, to start with. And she didn't like the idea, you know, that they didn't want her to come. | 22:24 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. | 22:34 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And it was nearer for her to go there, than it would've been for her to go up to West Charlotte. And so she was just determined she was going to make it work. | 22:34 |
Sonya Ramsey | How did the teachers treat her or anything? | 22:47 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, they ignored her. There was one teacher, the Bible teacher, who was very nice to her, but the rest of them ignored her. She would raise her hand, and they just, you know, looked— | 22:50 |
Sonya Ramsey | Hm. | 23:01 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | —over her. You know? | 23:01 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. | 23:03 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | But all of them are just scared because as I said, because of this community over there in West Charlotte, where a lot of these poor crackers lived. And I think the whole bunch of them, they were just scared. | 23:04 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did the family ever receive any threats and things during this— | 23:21 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Oh yes. | 23:26 |
Sonya Ramsey | —time? And how did you prepare for— [crosstalk 00:23:30] | 23:29 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, the chief of police just told us that they had somebody out there guarding the house every night. And we never had a problem with that, but we just ignored things. | 23:31 |
Sonya Ramsey | What reaction did you get from the Black community at this time? Was— | 23:48 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, they were with us, until we took her out. And then some of them said that they felt that was a mistake, that we should have— | 23:52 |
Sonya Ramsey | If their child was there—(laughs) | 24:02 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. | 24:05 |
Sonya Ramsey | That would— | 24:05 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | That's right. So we had these very close friends who lived in Yeadon, Pennsylvania, just out of Philadelphia. And they told us to send her up there. So she went there and she stayed there a year. And then it was so far for her being away from home, so, well, she was in eighth grade. And so the next years we sent her to Allen, was a private high school in Asheville, North Carolina. | 24:06 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 24:44 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And that's where she finished high school. | 24:45 |
Sonya Ramsey | So when she attended the White high school, how old was she? What grade was she in? | 24:48 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Let me see, now, was she eighth or ninth? She must have been in ninth grade. | 24:56 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 24:56 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yeah. She must have been in ninth grade, then, that's right. | 24:57 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. Did any of your sons ever attend the integrated schools? Or did they— | 25:03 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No. | 25:08 |
Sonya Ramsey | —attended—Okay. | 25:08 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No, they went to West Charlotte, which was all Black. | 25:09 |
Sonya Ramsey | Does your daughter ever talk about that experience, looking back on that now and stuff like that? | 25:15 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, I tell you what, she does quite a bit of speaking every year during Black History Week. Why, she's called on quite a bit, because people say they don't want the young people to forget. | 25:19 |
Sonya Ramsey | Yeah. That's why we're doing this project. | 25:39 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yeah. How it was, that they can sit anywhere they want to, they can go anywhere they want to. And she was the one that paved the way for them to go. So she speaks in churches, and in schools, and community organizations. | 25:42 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did other Black students follow after her at that high school or was it much later until the whole community? | 25:59 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yeah, it was a little later. The other two who went to Central, they finished Central. And this one little girl, I think she was, I said she was in elementary school and she finished. I can't remember where she went to high school, but I know she went there. | 26:08 |
Sonya Ramsey | And you said your daughter went to Allen Academy? | 26:27 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yeah, Allen High School in Asheville, North Carolina. Allen, it's a Methodist school. | 26:30 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did she enjoy that experience? | 26:43 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Oh yeah, she loved it. | 26:45 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did she not want to return back to Charlotte or the high school in West Charlotte? | 26:47 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No. | 26:52 |
Sonya Ramsey | No. | 26:53 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | She enjoyed it. She wanted to stay there because she made some very, very good friends. And they were very nice, well trained young people, and type of kids that she'd had as friends here in Charlotte. You know? | 26:53 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. All right. | 27:10 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | So that was a nice experience for her. | 27:12 |
Sonya Ramsey | Looking back now, with hindsight, do you regret the decision that you made or are you happy with the decision that you made to let her go to that school and things like that? | 27:16 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | With Allen— | 27:27 |
Sonya Ramsey | No, the— | 27:29 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | —or the first— | 27:29 |
Sonya Ramsey | —the one— | 27:30 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | —her Harding? | 27:30 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. | 27:31 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Harding High School was the one that she went to. Shortly after that, they moved Harding into another area. But no, I didn't have any regrets after that. We got a lot, lots and lots of mail from all over the world, we might say. I have a box of letters upstairs in the attic. And then I took out a whole lot of them and made a scrapbook for her about that thick. | 27:32 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 28:13 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And that scrapbook has traveled a whole lot. I really don't know where it is now. | 28:14 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh. | 28:21 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | I don't know whether she knows, but I know they kept it out at UNC, UNC-C, for quite awhile, because the person who taught Black history out there used it quite a bit. Oh, I asked her not too long ago if she knew exactly where it was. She said, "No, I don't. It could be here, but I just don't remember." | 28:22 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. I think later on, I guess, is there anything else you'd like to add to the interview and things like that? I think I'm pretty much finished with my— | 28:48 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, with that. | 28:58 |
Sonya Ramsey | —questions. | 28:58 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Can I [indistinct 00:29:01]? | 28:58 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. | 28:58 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | She has met one of the girls who went to Harding, who tried to befriend her in the last few years. And this girl lives right over in, I think, Gastonia somewhere. | 29:08 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 29:25 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | I don't know how they met. But anyhow, they met. And she was telling Dorothy, you know, how sorry she was that their friendship couldn't continue. | 29:26 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. | 29:36 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And I thought that was interesting. And she would call her sometimes. | 29:37 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, that's nice. | 29:42 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And of course the reaction that she gets from students, why, excuse me, it's always good, because, you know, little ones will say, "Well, why did they treat you like that?" | 29:51 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. | 30:10 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | You know, and— | 30:10 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. | 30:11 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Some things they just didn't understand. | 30:11 |
Sonya Ramsey | Do you notice any change after that experience, a change in her personality? | 30:16 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No. That was the thing that worried us because we did not want her to be bitter. And that was one of the reasons we sent her to Yeadon. And she went to public school there. But Yeadon is a small suburb of Philadelphia, and, you know, they had very nice kids there. | 30:22 |
Sonya Ramsey | Yes. Okay. | 30:45 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And she had good friends there. So the news media tried their best. They did everything possible to try to find out where she was to follow up on. | 30:46 |
Sonya Ramsey | What was your family's relationship with the news media and things? Did they have a Black newspaper at the time, do you think? | 31:01 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Most these were White, Observer, and the— | 31:08 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. How did they treat the issue and things? Were they fair? | 31:11 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | I think they were pretty much fair. My husband got mad with them one time, and they began asking him some questions, and he just had to get them told, you know. | 31:15 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. | 31:30 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | But that was the only experience that he had, that was not a good experience. | 31:30 |
Sonya Ramsey | You thought they were on your side, side of integration or on the side of the principal and things? | 31:39 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Oh no, they were on our side. | 31:46 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, I see. | 31:46 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | But then of course, in the meantime, they would try to bring in things, you know how media does. | 31:48 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. | 31:54 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | How they treat things, how suppose such and such a thing had happened, or, "Why did this have to happen." And so forth. | 31:54 |
Sonya Ramsey | How did Dorothy's friends in her neighborhood feel about her going to this school and things? | 32:02 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, you see, we lived on campus. | 32:08 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, on campus. Okay. | 32:09 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And there were no kids in that immediate—Well, there were some too, but not too close. It was just off campus. | 32:12 |
Sonya Ramsey | I was just wondering what her— | 32:19 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | It was off campus. | 32:19 |
Sonya Ramsey | —friends thought about her doing that. | 32:20 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | I don't think she had a problem as far as I can remember, I don't think she had a problem with that. | 32:26 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. I think that's all I have to ask, I'll probably think of something I get back home. The second part of the interview is the biographical data form. And this form just asks, you mentioned some of the things, but it just asks dates, and I know it's hard for me to remember dates, but whatever you remember is fine, and things, and I just wanted your last name. | 32:30 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | I'm very poor at dates. | 32:55 |
Sonya Ramsey | So we'll just get through it. It's just the things they ask me to do. | 33:03 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yeah, there's some things I definitely remember and some things I don't remember. | 33:05 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. And— | 33:08 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | My last name is Counts. C-O— | 33:09 |
Sonya Ramsey | C-O-U— | 33:10 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | —U-N-T-S. | 33:11 |
Sonya Ramsey | And what is your middle name? Not your maiden name. | 33:12 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | My middle name, let's see, a horrible name. My name is Olethea Elveta Wilson. | 33:16 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 33:25 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | That was my— | 33:25 |
Sonya Ramsey | Do you spell Olethea? | 33:25 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | O-L-E-T-H-E-A. | 33:32 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. I've heard of that name before. And what's the middle name? | 33:35 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | E-L-V-E-T-A. | 33:38 |
Sonya Ramsey | That's different. It seems like a name people have today, you know— | 33:44 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | I— | 33:45 |
Sonya Ramsey | —this name? Okay. And your maiden name? | 33:48 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Wilson. | 33:49 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. I'm sorry. You just said that. I have your address. What's your zip code? | 33:50 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | 28216. | 33:54 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. And I have your phone number and how would you be like to known on your file? Olethea Wilson Counts? | 33:55 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. | 34:04 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 34:04 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | 376-5446 is my telephone number. | 34:07 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. And your date of birth? | 34:22 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | August 12th, 1911. | 34:26 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. And you were born in Charleston? | 34:28 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. | 34:32 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. And you're currently widowed? | 34:35 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Beg pardon? | 34:38 |
Sonya Ramsey | Are you currently widowed or— | 34:39 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. | 34:43 |
Sonya Ramsey | Yes. Okay. And what was your husband's first name? | 34:43 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Herman. | 34:44 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. And his middle name? | 34:48 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Lacoste, L-A-C-O-S-T-E. | 34:49 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. And his last name? Oh, Counts. | 34:52 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Counts. | 34:54 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. I know that. Do you remember his birthday? | 34:57 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | January 7th, 1911. | 35:03 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. Do you remember, you said he died in 1970— | 35:05 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Nine. | 35:12 |
Sonya Ramsey | —nine, Okay. And his place of birth? | 35:13 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Let's see, I think it was Allendale, South Carolina. | 35:20 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. And he was a Presbyterian minister and teacher? | 35:25 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. | 35:31 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. What was your mother's first name? | 35:32 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Ethelyn. | 35:38 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. E? | 35:38 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | E-T-H-E-L-Y-N. | 35:41 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. And her middle name? | 35:45 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | You mean her middle name? | 35:48 |
Sonya Ramsey | Yeah. | 35:50 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Not the family name? | 35:51 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. | 35:52 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Let me see, what was Mama's name? Beatrice, I think. | 35:52 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 35:59 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yeah. B-E-A-T-R-I-C-E. | 35:59 |
Sonya Ramsey | And Wilson? | 36:02 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Wilson, yeah. | 36:03 |
Sonya Ramsey | And what was her maiden name? | 36:04 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Parker. | 36:07 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. And her date of birth? | 36:07 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Let's see, her birthday was November. Golly, when was that? I'm not sure. Okay. | 36:16 |
Sonya Ramsey | Well, we can— [indistinct 00:36:40] | 36:39 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | I— | 36:39 |
Sonya Ramsey | I need ask you one question, what did the Priscilla Club do? What kind of activities did it do? | 36:40 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | We just had meetings, and brought in speakers, and that was about it. | 36:48 |
Sonya Ramsey | How did the club select its members? | 36:58 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Usually recommendations from other members. | 37:06 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 37:10 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | I'll say that. | 37:11 |
Sonya Ramsey | Were most of the members teachers, and people like that? | 37:11 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. Yeah. | 37:13 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. And what did the Helping Hand Club do? | 37:14 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Same thing. | 37:19 |
Sonya Ramsey | Same thing, they were similar? | 37:19 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | They were sister clubs. Yes. | 37:20 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 37:21 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | So that's why I got out from Priscilla Club and I said, "Oh, the Helping Hand." Because I went into the Helping Hand before I went into the Priscilla Club. | 37:22 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 37:28 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And I was very, very active in the Helping Hand, so I remained in that group— | 37:28 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. And what kind of— | 37:37 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | —a couple years. | 37:37 |
Sonya Ramsey | —things did they do in the community, the Helping Hand Club? | 37:42 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, we usually give to the Y or some civic organization every year. | 37:44 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 37:55 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And we have very interesting meetings. | 37:57 |
Sonya Ramsey | And in what ways? | 38:03 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, we keep up with current events. | 38:04 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 38:08 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And we either do research ourselves or we bring in someone. | 38:09 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. When did you join these organizations? Was it during segregation or during recent times? | 38:16 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, actually, soon after I came here. So it was beginning of integration. | 38:21 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did the clubs listen to current vets and at that time, too? | 38:32 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Oh, yes. | 38:36 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did they— | 38:37 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | We've always kept up with them. | 38:37 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did they ever talk about voting and voting rights— | 38:40 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Oh, yes. | 38:43 |
Sonya Ramsey | —and civil rights, things like— | 38:43 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Everything. | 38:44 |
Sonya Ramsey | —that? | 38:44 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Uh-huh. | 38:45 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did you vote while you were in Charlotte? | 38:47 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. | 38:49 |
Sonya Ramsey | Were you and your husband politically active and things like that in the community? | 38:50 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No. Because he was a very, very busy person and I was very busy at home. | 38:57 |
Sonya Ramsey | Did Blacks ever have a problem with voting— | 39:05 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No. | 39:07 |
Sonya Ramsey | —anything like that? | 39:08 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | No. Not at all. | 39:09 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. Did speakers come in and speak to the clubs? And what kind of things like that? | 39:12 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yeah, we brought in speakers and regardless of, usually every—[indistinct 00:39:23] somewhat, usually, well, we make out a program two years at a time. | 39:16 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 39:30 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And we have an opportunity when your time comes, you're responsible for the program. | 39:33 |
Sonya Ramsey | Oh, okay. | 39:36 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And whatever, you select your own topics. And if there is a person who you feel that, you know, would be already prepared— | 39:38 |
Sonya Ramsey | Mm-hmm. | 39:57 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | —why, then you get that person, but you're responsible. | 39:57 |
Sonya Ramsey | Were these programs open to the community or just to the members? | 40:03 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Members of the club. | 40:04 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 40:04 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | And of course, if you wanted to invite anybody, you could. | 40:09 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. | 40:13 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Some people do, some people don't. | 40:13 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. And what type of programs did you put on when you were in charge of the program? | 40:16 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, it all depended on what my topic was. | 40:21 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. What were some of the different types of topics that you had back then? | 40:23 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Well, we talked about integration. We talked about women, and their responsibilities in the home, and the community, and things like that. Now we're talking about living wills, and magnet schools, and whatever. | 40:27 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. There's more of the civic over— [indistinct 00:40:58] | 40:56 |
Olethea Wilson Counts | Yes. | 40:58 |
Sonya Ramsey | Okay. That's interesting. Okay. I guess that's all. | 40:58 |
Item Info
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