Ruth Johnson interview recording, 1993 June 25
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Transcript
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Ruth Stewart Johnson | —in Scotland Neck. | 0:01 |
Rhonda Mawhood | So you're saying that the old people's cures in the old days seem to work, but they don't work now. | 0:05 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | No, I don't think they work now because heard people say, "You know so and so? It don't work." | 0:13 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Do you think that it worked then, Mrs. Johnson? | 0:20 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | It must have. I still think it must have. We had a young guy from Dukes. He was Chinese. He stayed here with some of the group at the center in our homes and he wanted some of the old herbs and what they were used for. So around here, I collected right many various things and told them what people use, such as barretto bark, not the red oak, but the wild cherry bark, they said was good for low blood, and then the may root, something grew in the spring, they used that as a purgative to clear you up in the spring to work a person. And they had catnip for babies, teething and fevers and things. | 0:24 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | But anyway, when we got through getting odds and end, using old poke root for swelling, I guess it was rheumatism, they called it at that time, swellings, and some type of leaf, plant or leaf, would draw the fever from the person head. And when they got through with it, he was amazed at the many things people had used. That was just a part of them. And I guess they might go back and see if they can work some of that stuff into real medication. | 1:27 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And when your children were born, Mrs. Johnson, were they born in hospital or at home or somewhere else? | 2:11 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, all of them was born at home. I had the doctor with the first and the last. A midwife lady would do three in the middle. | 2:17 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And was the midwife a Black lady or a White? | 2:32 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. | 2:35 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Was she from around here? | 2:37 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. | 2:38 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And did she deliver a lot of babies in this area? | 2:43 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. She was really busy. | 2:47 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Was it different being delivered by a doctor and by a midwife? | 2:53 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes, because the doctor, he'd wait so long and, the midwife, she seemed to be watching every movement and talking and giving you a little pep to steer you on, felt like you feel close to them. | 3:01 |
Rhonda Mawhood | So she came— | 3:31 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | It's a job. It's a job either way. You got to do the job. | 3:33 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And did people usually pay the midwife in money or would they give her other things instead? | 3:45 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, mostly, she charged a small fee. From year to year, it would go up, up, up. I remember when it was $8. I remember, on the last, it was $15. So I don't know. She might have gone up higher now with everything else moving. | 3:51 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Is she still working around here? | 4:13 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | No. Those ones did that I knew, but there are some in Scotland Neck. And I heard a White lady had used one, said she'd prefer her than going to the hospital because they tend to know. I heard one lady say she came to a girl up the road, and I was there. They'd look in your eyes and tell where you are really suffering or is it too serious for it to keep you there, because they have to go to school, too. | 4:15 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Do you remember the name of the midwife who delivered your children? | 5:02 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes, Lizzie Tory. She used to live down to Datrory. Lizzie Tory. | 5:05 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And do you know if she went to school or where did she learn? | 5:16 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Now, at that time, I doubt it. I knew a young lady. She wasn't no older than I was and she started—they'd go to the clinic, it seemed like, and they're taught at the clinic certain rules and whatnot. It's a job I don't think I—I wouldn't tackle that one. I don't think I would have the nerve to tackle it. I was there when I later had her baby and I tend to be trying to comfort her and talk. And she grabbed me right by the arm and she [indistinct 00:06:08] pull my arm off. And I'm telling you, I just couldn't stand it. I don't know whether I had the baby or she had it, but I'm telling you it was serious. I don't know. That is one thing. Why do it have to be so hard? | 5:19 |
Rhonda Mawhood | A lot of people would like to know that. | 6:32 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I think it said that the curse God put on the woman, bringing forth the children, and the man to tilt the sword. And we said we took the man job. Man ought take our job sometime. And that is just too much. A lady, older lady, she's still living, she had 18. Doctor wanted her to stop. She wouldn't even let him stop her, rest up. | 6:34 |
Rhonda Mawhood | How did women who didn't want to have so many children work that out, Mrs. Johnson? I don't mean now. I mean years ago. | 7:14 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, this woman said the doctor told her to come to him and he would give her something. And maybe, at that time, he might've had some birth control pills or something he could've given her, but she wouldn't go. And maybe he did have something. And that was years and years ago. | 7:24 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Do you remember women talking about childbirth and how to avoid getting pregnant if they didn't want to? | 7:51 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Oh, yeah, now. | 8:00 |
Rhonda Mawhood | But not when you were growing up or when you were first married? | 8:02 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | No. I hardly knew what it was all about. You know didn't even worry about things like that. You didn't even know about a lot of things. I'd never seen a child born, been around a little baby. And now, the world is so open, so wide, and TV, and they're born every day on TV until every little—I got a little grandchild, nearly four. And time she hear somebody talking about a baby, she's looking, is it going to be born, and looking to see is one going to be born so she can look. | 8:05 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | And I cut it off to keep her from looking so and she could tell me more than I could tell her about it. But then, we didn't have television, we didn't have all this talk. And if a person had a child, even if they were single, they stayed home. You didn't know nothing. And when you saw them, that child was big enough to eat cornbread or something. Now, they're out walking around. They come from the hospital about a day or two and they're out in the street. | 8:45 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Do you remember hearing about women who got pregnant who weren't married? | 9:27 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Oh, yes. Not then. After they had a child, you would hear about it, but not as often, not third as often as you do now. And mighty seldom, when I was growing up, would you hear about a single girl having a child. And now, that's all that's having them, is the one that's unmarried. | 9:31 |
Rhonda Mawhood | When you were growing up and a single girl did have a child, how did the people in the community react to— | 10:02 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | You didn't hardly know until you saw that girl after a long time, and then it was whispered then, and they had to go to the church, they had to ask for forgiveness, and then you learn. | 10:10 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did you ever hear rumors of young men who had fathered children without being married? | 10:31 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes, but they didn't talk about the men and the men didn't have to go to church and say a word. And I always thought that was wrong. It seemed wrong that they didn't have to say anything because they were a part of it. And now, they may have insurance, single women may have insurance just to get a check, everyday thing, and the majority of them do not work, they don't know how to work, and they don't care if they don't. That is the only thing I hate about my race. And they don't treat the child well, such as prepare them a good breakfast or doing for them or something, the most of them—that child is not treated half as good as somebody out there who's working and scrambling, trying to make a decent home for them, and married. | 10:38 |
Rhonda Mawhood | You mentioned work, Mrs. Johnson. Of all the different kinds of work that you did, I'm wondering which one you liked the best and which one you liked the least. | 11:54 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | My least was working in the field. I could work, child, pick cotton, shake peanuts or something, but I had to do it very slow. And that was one thing my husband and I certainly didn't agree on, the way I worked, but we had to hire somebody to help us. I never weighed much, most time about 90, and I didn't have that vigorous touch to go out there and work hard, but you give me a pencil and paper—that's why I don't have any eyes today. No, it's not, glaucoma runs in my family, an eye disease. Something like that or a sewing machine or something I can do otherwise, I love it. | 12:20 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I'm going to switch topics again a little bit and ask you if you remember how your family celebrated holidays when you were growing up. | 13:36 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, they always took time off for Thanksgiving and, of course, Christmas and 4th of July. They were the three main one, being that they worked like they did. My father was an accordion player and he blew a harp. So he would love to have people to come around and he would have these feast. He believed in this feast. I don't know why we didn't gain weight. Everybody else where we lived was large people. And he would make the music and some of his old buddies picked guitars and banjos and whatnot. And we danced as children. You heard of Charleston? | 13:48 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Yes, ma'am. | 14:54 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | And other things, shag, tickle toe and black bottom and all them old steps, we did it. And they would give us something for the ones who could do it the best. I guess my legs was longer than most of them and smaller, so they showed up doing it better. So I didn't have no better sense to work it out. But my mother enjoyed it, the people coming in, feasting. | 14:57 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And did you continue to do that after your father had died, Mrs. Johnson? | 15:37 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, not as much. She didn't. We would have our little family, but not like he did. He believed in work, eating, and gathering because he was, I guess, born that way. | 15:42 |
Rhonda Mawhood | You mentioned to me that one of your father's grandparents was Indian? | 16:16 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes, they said— | 16:21 |
Rhonda Mawhood | [indistinct 00:16:22]. | 16:21 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | —he was. | 16:22 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did your father— | 16:26 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | He said his grandmother raised him because his parents separated. His father went back to Florida and his mother went back over in Virginia. So he didn't live with his parent. His grandmother took him and raised him on his mother's side. | 16:27 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And was that his Indian grandmother? | 16:45 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | No, that was his grandmother on the mother's side. And logging, fishing, and hunting was his life. | 16:47 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What was it like for your mother after her husband passed and she had these children? | 17:09 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, first thing, the income was certainly missed, then she stopped sharecropping because my older brother had passed then and my older sister worked in Suffolk with some of the relatives, my father's relatives. And so it was four of us home. And she and I would grade tobacco, and my other sister, we would grade tobacco because tobacco peanuts was the most crops in the county. So we would work, but the price was small because, at that time, everything was mighty low. Things was cheaper but everything you buy was cheaper. So it was cheap all the way around. And therefore, when she heard about this ownership of home ownership, she was anxious to try it out. | 17:21 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | So after, she and my brother, younger brother, couldn't buy her place. They went to Baltimore. He got a job. And so she lived to be 82 and she still bought her home. One of my brothers was in the service and had died in the service and the other one just passed two years ago. So she had some good years. | 18:47 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Your brother who moved to Baltimore, what kind of work did he do there? | 19:32 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | First, he went to the Cat Paw Rubber Company, working on a machine. And that was during the war, about '45. Well, I know it was the year of '45 when the war closed, and he was working then, and a lot of men had gone to service, but somehow they didn't take him and he was showing women how to work on the machine and lots of women went to work. So he worked on this making shoe heels, Cat Paw Rubber Company, making shoe heels. He worked there and worked there until he got injured in his back and then he had to go on disability and, from that, to social security. And we just sold his house in Baltimore last year, my sister. I only have one living sister, older one, and we sold this house in Baltimore last year. | 19:35 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did your brother have children, Mrs. Johnson? | 20:53 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | No, he didn't have any children. | 20:56 |
Rhonda Mawhood | You talked about working hard and about how your mother told you to keep your head up and to stand up. If you could, I wanted to ask you about the kinds of values that your mother and your father, before he died, taught you. | 21:05 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, he always would tell us—he'd get us all together, the children, and tell us to stay out of trouble because trouble long then didn't breed like it do now, because we didn't hear tell our children with guns and other knives and other equipment like they do now. So we didn't have too much to worry about. There were no drugs on the street. We didn't know about alcohol. We didn't use it. And so we didn't have too much to fear. We listened, but we didn't have too much to fear. And he would often chastise us in how we should live. I guess he must've realized somewhere that his life would be shorter than we knew it to be. My mother, she was very strict. | 21:30 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Who were your heroes, Mrs. Johnson. Who did you look up to? | 22:56 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, I hardly know. I can say maybe I was looking so straight down the road until I didn't worry about looking at nothing, up to nobody. I just felt like I could carry myself. I don't know. | 23:05 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Thank you. I like that answer. | 23:37 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | That is odd. | 23:37 |
Rhonda Mawhood | My question is odd, do you think? | 23:43 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | No, not the question. It's me. And sometime a person—and maybe that's the way I grew up or felt, that I had to build my own strength and go on that until I was so busy trying to build mine until I didn't pay others any mind. I didn't ignore it, but I just didn't look up to it. I knew right, I knew wrong. It's just odd to look back over your life, very odd. | 23:51 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Well, you've told me about a lot about your life, Mrs. Johnson, and I do appreciate it very much. | 25:15 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I have a little sketch that a guy who wrote articles on a paper did some years back. And I [indistinct 00:25:32] I didn't know that. A person, you got to tell him something. And these things come back and you can hardly recognize it. | 25:20 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Is that because you've changed or because times have changed? | 26:00 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I think it's the times. You live in a different timeframe. | 26:04 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Do you look back over your life very much these days, Mrs. Johnson, or [indistinct 00:26:25]? | 26:21 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yeah. I take time and look back. And I'd reckon that's what you do when you get older. You have time to go back, to go back. As somebody said, "Do you talk to yourself?" I said, "Yes, I talk to myself." "Do you answer yourself?" I said, "No." He said, "Well, don't get to that part because you'll be gone. Your mind could go, just start answering. Talking is okay, but don't answer. Ask yourself something. Don't answer it." I said, "Wait a minute. I don't know whether I'm doing that or not." Living by yourself a lot, you're subject to— | 26:25 |
Rhonda Mawhood | If you were going to give advice to people, young people today, maybe people my age, maybe a bit younger, I'm 26, White and Black, or Black, whichever you like, what would you tell us? | 27:19 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Good question. | 27:37 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Because you have so many years and so much experience. | 27:38 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, the first thing I'd say to anybody, try to be prepared. The doors is open, but the path that you tread to walk is narrow that leads in. And don't look back. The opportunity is amazing. I have a grandson, my daughter's son. He finished, at UNC, his four years in college and he went to work four years. His daddy wanted him to keep on because he wanted to be a doctor. He's 29 as of last January. So he worked four years to enroll into in Atlanta, Georgia as health and safety inspector. So then he decided he'd go to school. So he's gone back to UNC on a nine-week program. After that, he will go back regular for whatever needs. | 27:42 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | So he called me the other day and said, "Grandma," since his mother had passed, said, "I've got to tell you because I haven't talked to you in a good while, and so sometime I'll call you and I won't send nothing, I'll just call you." I said, "Don't do that." He said, "I had the privilege in this class to dissect a 48-year-old heart victim yesterday." He's going to go in heart study. "It's amazing what's inside of a person," because he knew I have this flat heart valve and I go to a heart doctor. So he said, "It's amazing what's inside of a person. Amazing." And he kept saying, "Amazing." I said, "Hold it because I don't want you to fall out." "It's amazing." So it's amazing what you can do at your age and life ain't through with you yet, to anybody. My best work and years was between 30 and 70, when I could see and move around and was able to drive. So it's amazing to see what's inside of a person. [indistinct 00:31:19]. | 29:24 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Thank you, Mrs. Johnson. I have some forms that maybe you could help me fill out, if that's okay. It's some biographical information and some family history. Would that be all right, ma'am? | 31:33 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. | 31:48 |
Rhonda Mawhood | It shouldn't take too long, I hope, just so that we can get on the record who your family is and where you lived and all that. So your last name is Johnson and your middle name, ma'am, I think you had two. | 31:48 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, I had two, but I use my maiden name, Stewart, on every document, S-T-E-W-A-R-T. | 32:06 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And your first name is Ruth. | 32:21 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. | 32:22 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And your address is Route One Boff 87? | 32:30 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes, Halifax. | 32:33 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And that's Halifax County. What's your zip, Mrs. Johnson? | 32:45 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | 27839. | 33:04 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And how did you want your name to appear on this interview, Mrs. Johnson? | 33:04 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Just like that, since I carried all my medical history and all my papers and social security number and whatnot. | 33:09 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Ruth Stewart Johnson. And could you tell me your date of birth, Mrs. Johnson? | 33:22 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. March the 11th, 1916. | 33:27 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Were you born in Hertford County? | 33:35 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes, I was, Reppersborough Township. | 33:36 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And what was your husband's name, Mrs. Johnson? | 33:51 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Louis, L-O-U-I-S, the way he spelled it. Louis J. | 33:53 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Johnson. And do you know your husband's date of birth? | 34:00 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes, February the 14th, 1914. | 34:06 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Oh, that's nice. And you told me he died in 1989? | 34:12 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes, April the 3rd. | 34:17 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And he was born in Halifax County. Is that [indistinct 00:34:29]? | 34:26 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. | 34:28 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And he was a farmer? | 34:35 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. | 34:36 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Your mother's name, ma'am. | 34:41 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Rosa B. Stewart. | 34:43 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And her maiden name? | 34:46 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yeah, the Stewart part is her maiden name. | 34:51 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Oh, really? | 34:54 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | No, wait, Stewart is her—I mean, that's her married name. I'm getting it all boiled up. | 34:58 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That's fine. | 35:04 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Hawkins. She was a Hawkin, Rosa [indistinct 00:35:07] Hawkins. | 35:05 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And do you know when your mother was born, Mrs. Johnson? | 35:11 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. She was born May the 11th, 19 and 18. | 35:14 |
Rhonda Mawhood | 19 and 18? | 35:16 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Oh, yeah, 1918. | 35:26 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That'd be your sister, I think. | 35:32 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Wait a minute. Mama was born in 1885. | 35:34 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Thank you. | 35:46 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | 1885. | 35:46 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And then she died when she was '82, I think you said. So she died in the '60s. | 35:46 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Now, wait a minute. Let me get that right. She was 82 when she passed that May in '60—Mama passed in '67. She passed in '67 at 82. Why I can't remember when she was born? | 35:50 |
Rhonda Mawhood | So that would make her born in 1885. Yes, ma'am. | 36:10 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yeah. Okay. | 36:13 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Exactly right. | 36:13 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I just hadn't thought about it in a long time, but it's in my Bible. I should've got that. | 36:15 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And your mother was born in Hertford County, was she? | 36:20 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. | 36:26 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And for your mother's occupation, should I put farmer and seamstress? | 36:32 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. | 36:36 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And your father's name? | 36:46 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Richard, and then D. Stewart. | 36:48 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And do you know his date of birth, ma'am? | 36:59 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I think I never recorded his in the Bible. My sister told me, but I never put—she had the big Bible and I had the little one. | 37:10 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Well, you say you moved to Tillery in 1936 and your father had died shortly before. | 37:25 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes, he died in '34— | 37:30 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Died in '34. | 37:30 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | —at 55 years old. He was 55 in '34. | 37:32 |
Rhonda Mawhood | So he was born in 1879, from my reckoning. [indistinct 00:37:44] 1900, 1879, 1900 is 21, and then to '34, 21 and 34 divided—yep, 1879. | 37:36 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Because he was much older than my mother. | 38:00 |
Rhonda Mawhood | He was, wasn't he? And I think you told me where your father was born, in Florida. Was he born in Florida, Mrs. Johnson? | 38:03 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Now, I'm trying to think, did they bring him here from Florida or was he born—his mother was a Virginia lady. And whether he was born over in Virginia— | 38:14 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Leave the microphone off. There's another little microphone in here. We can leave this off since we're just filling out the forms now. | 38:28 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, I can turn the fan on, give a little bit more air. | 38:35 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That'd be fine. | 38:39 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | —while you're writing. [indistinct 00:38:55]. We better turn the heat back up in there. [indistinct 00:39:14]. | 38:54 |
Rhonda Mawhood | You were telling me that your father was a logger. | 39:14 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. | 39:17 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And you say also a farmer? | 39:17 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | No, he didn't farm. | 39:21 |
Rhonda Mawhood | He didn't farm. Okay. So he was a logger. | 39:23 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | [indistinct 00:39:24] on the waters. [indistinct 00:39:29]. | 39:25 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Could you tell me the names of your sisters and brothers, please, Mrs. Johnson? | 40:07 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. Carrie, C-A-R-R-I-E, Carrie Hamlin. [indistinct 00:40:17]. James Stewart, S-T-E-W-A-R-T. Kelly, K-E-L-L-Y, Stewart. [indistinct 00:40:38] Kess, K-E-S-S. | 40:09 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I'm sorry. How did you spell her first name, please? | 40:09 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | L-U-L-A. [indistinct 00:40:50]. Stanley, S-T-A-N-L-E-Y. | 40:09 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Thank you. And you were the fifth child. | 41:16 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. | 41:19 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And could you give me the names and the dates of birth of your own children, please, Mrs. Johnson? | 41:19 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. My [indistinct 00:41:28], Gladys Johnson and [indistinct 00:41:32] Johnson. Gladys. [indistinct 00:41:40] 17th, 1940. | 41:24 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What date did she pass, Mrs. Johnson? | 41:24 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | She passed in '84 of [indistinct 00:42:02], January the 9th, 1942. She passed [indistinct 00:42:16] in New York in '67, '68. He was born January the 9th, 1942. Richard, June the 27th, 1941. | 41:24 |
Rhonda Mawhood | His birthday is soon. | 41:24 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | And Kevin, K-E-V-I-N, October the 4th, [indistinct 00:43:12], October the 4th, 19 and —No, [indistinct 00:43:16] James. [indistinct 00:43:23] Kevin [indistinct 00:43:24]. | 43:11 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Yes, ma'am. | 43:12 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Okay. October the 4th, 1980. And '68, [indistinct 00:43:32]. And James [indistinct 00:43:41] born February 26th, 1950. | 43:26 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And how many grandchildren do you have, Mrs. Johnson? | 43:38 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Four. [indistinct 00:44:13] boys. One got their [indistinct 00:44:18] two went wrong. | 43:38 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Now, you had given me the name of the school that—was the first school you went to the Waters Training School? | 44:25 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | No. | 44:29 |
Rhonda Mawhood | No. What was the first school name? | 44:31 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | It's called Gatling Schoolhouse. It was around our area, called Gatling, old Gatling, G-A-T-L-I-N-G, Gatling Schools. | 44:33 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And that was in Hertford County? | 44:48 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. The school had a church adjoined [indistinct 00:44:58] because everybody around that area was farmers. Farmers, [indistinct 00:45:03] church. | 44:49 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And after the Gatling Schoolhouse, where did you go then, Mrs. Johnson? | 45:23 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I [indistinct 00:45:32] a school in [indistinct 00:45:34] for one year. That's when I was staying with my grandmother when I was much older because my parents had moved in another area. And so I lived with her. [indistinct 00:45:48]. And then back to Waters Training School. | 45:26 |
Rhonda Mawhood | —was born in March. Must have been in my 13th year, I guess. Okay? | 0:01 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | And you stayed there until 1936, I guess, when you moved here? | 0:08 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Well, I came here in '35. | 0:13 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | '35? | 0:14 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Yeah, '35. The spring of '35. Let's see. I went to here in '35. I came here in '35. Went to school here, and finished in '36. | 0:14 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | And that was Weldon High School? | 0:46 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Yes, that was what it was called at the time. [indistinct 00:00:52] hadn't been a village. | 0:48 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | And Weldon High School was in Halifax, is that right? | 0:48 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Yeah, it was in Weldon. | 0:48 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Weldon. Oh, of course. | 0:48 |
Rhonda Mawhood | [indistinct 00:01:06]. | 0:48 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | And for this little section on work history, you were a substitute teacher for a little while? | 1:33 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Yes. | 1:40 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | In Halifax County? | 1:45 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Yes. And three years under ESEA. That's that elementary education act as a teacher aid, that just doing what they told me to do. Working with slow learners, [indistinct 00:02:12], aiding the teacher. | 1:50 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | That's also in Halifax? | 2:15 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Yes. | 2:16 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | So you were working as a substitute teacher from the time you graduated in 1936? | 2:20 |
Rhonda Mawhood | No. | 2:24 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Sorry. No? | 2:25 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Oh yeah. Off and on. | 2:26 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Off and on. | 2:27 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Yeah. And then the three— | 2:29 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I started. And then '67 to '70, I did the ESEA aid work. | 2:37 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I see. | 2:37 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Then I went back serving again to many more schools in between. I served. | 2:37 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Do you remember the name of that plant, Mrs. Johnson? | 2:57 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. Apparel, Enfield Apparel. Enfield Apparel. I think about two years, I was there. | 3:01 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And around when was that, Mr. Johnson? | 3:10 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Let's see. I went there after I did the aid work. So that was early—I come out the school in '70. Must've been in '71 and '72 and '73. It was somewhere in the early '70s. I don't know. In between '67 and '70 or something like that. | 3:20 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That's fine. Thank you. And then you farmed your own farm with your husband from '43, did you tell me? | 3:50 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. 20 years. We'd stop in the '60s with that. | 3:58 |
Rhonda Mawhood | There any other jobs that you want me to list here, Mr. Johnson? I have substitute teacher, teacher's aid, seamstress, and farmer. | 4:09 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, I did chore work, working for the blind. I worked for the blind two years under the blind program. | 4:17 |
Rhonda Mawhood | So you were a helper to her? | 4:34 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes, yes. I did everything. Take them to the doctor and shop for grocery, clean the house. Wait on them and bathe her. Anything needed to be done, I did it. [indistinct 00:04:59]. | 4:35 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Oh, yes, ma'am. I'll be fine with the [indistinct 00:05:06]. Just a minute. I— | 5:01 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | No, I meant from— | 5:06 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Oh, from all that? Oh, I'm sorry. Of course. All of this work. | 5:08 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | No, that's all I've been doing. Going to the doctors and eye doctors and resting. | 5:11 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. There's a section here where I have to list offices you've held and any awards or honors might have received. You were president of the PTA? | 5:25 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. | 5:36 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Of this area? | 5:36 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. I was the president, I don't know how many years. I'm trying to think. We left the old school and came to the next place, let's see, probably three years. I don't remember how long, but it was quite a while. | 6:02 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And you were secretary of the NAACP? | 6:09 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. Yes. | 6:12 |
Rhonda Mawhood | In this area? | 6:13 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. Yes. Tillery. All this is Tillery. | 6:14 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And when was that, Mrs. Johnson? Approximately. | 6:17 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I would say we started about '42. Organized in—I know it. Not '42, maybe '45. Because '47 we went to the, it was a conference in New Jersey, and I was very new at that time. It was in '45. Maybe for about three years. I don't think I was president too—I mean secretary too long. I do remember the other lady that came in. | 6:21 |
Rhonda Mawhood | But you were secretary in the 1940s? | 6:54 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. | 6:55 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Right then? | 6:55 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. Yes. '45 and whatever we started. I was the first one. | 6:55 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. Okay. And you've been an usher in your church? | 7:24 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. | 7:26 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And you've been for— | 7:27 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | 35 years. Been dealing in and out there. | 7:32 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | And the church secretary about 17 years. Reporter, secretary. | 7:35 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. And is that just recently, Mrs. Johnson? | 7:46 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well— | 8:01 |
Rhonda Mawhood | These past 17 years? | 8:02 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I just stopped last year on account of my eyes. | 8:05 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. | 8:07 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I stopped last year. | 8:07 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And you were the chairperson of the 4-H club? | 8:17 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yeah. Yeah. I worked with 4-H 12 years. I had an award. I got a 4-H award. I put them all in. There my 4-H award. | 8:20 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | A 50-year Extension Homemakers. 50-year. 50-year. 50-year Homemakers award. I've been with the club in the early days with my mother, and then with the younger group from '38 up until time, let's see somewhere. And this is when we raised money for the start. The kitchen that, the center. | 8:42 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Let's see. | 9:17 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Ooh. That feel good. | 9:17 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Yeah, the breeze. | 9:17 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Thank you. | 9:17 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | And I forgot, I'm a notary. | 9:17 |
Rhonda Mawhood | You were a notary public. You are a notary public. | 9:18 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | For 15 years. Been working on that. So my door stays open all the time. And— | 10:22 |
Rhonda Mawhood | So you've you've been a notary public for 15 years now? | 10:47 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yeah, and once ever five years, I just had it renewed again. Yeah. Seem like they're scarce. So one lady and myself, and Mr. Cook, is the only one, and it's very convenient for the people. Because right now, we've been doing wills and other things. I had one more thing. Oh, I'm on the legal service board in a hostel. But we don't do nothing but vote. | 10:50 |
Rhonda Mawhood | All right. | 11:22 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Legal Service, North Carolina Legal Service Board in a hostel. The legal aid for the poverty people. We act as the grassroot to the lawyers to inform them of clients in need. | 11:25 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | This is my daughter. | 11:49 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Oh, she's beautiful. Beautiful picture. | 11:52 |
Rhonda Mawhood | She looks like you. Bigger, but she looks like you. | 12:02 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yeah. | 12:04 |
Rhonda Mawhood | You know what I mean? | 12:04 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. | 12:04 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Beautiful. | 12:04 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | [indistinct 00:12:12]. And this is my sister, but she's the one dead. And this is my granddaughter, her daughter. Her daughter. And that write up, a fella did that in Scotland Neck some years back. | 12:12 |
Rhonda Mawhood | You've been working in rural development for a long time. Haven't you ma'am? | 12:36 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I think so. | 12:40 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That's very nice. Is this a picture of your sister? When was this picture taken, ma'am? | 12:41 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | That was way back there when they had a contest on this lookalike, and she favored Martin Luther King's wife so much. | 13:32 |
Rhonda Mawhood | For a minute, I thought that's who it was. | 13:42 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | And she got something for the lookalike. So she looked just like Martin's sister. I mean wife. It was way back there. I don't know what year it was, but it was a long time ago. | 13:45 |
Rhonda Mawhood | She sure did. | 14:01 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | And she had that nose and neck and everything. | 14:01 |
Rhonda Mawhood | She's very pretty. Well, it's a very nice article about you, Mrs. Johnson. It shows how much you've done. Thank you for showing it to me. | 14:03 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Are there any hobbies that you want me to list for the record here, Mrs. Johnson? | 14:19 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well— | 14:23 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Or other interests that you haven't mentioned to me yet? | 14:23 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I have done a lot of crafts, embroidery and macrame, but it ain't around here. It's done gone, and somebody's got it. I've done hanging baskets and odds and ends from twine, and I embroidery and all. | 14:29 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did you do that hanging over there, Ms. Johnson? You did that hanging over there? | 14:56 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. | 15:00 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That wall hanging? | 15:00 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. | 15:00 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That's beautiful. | 15:00 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | And I got another piece of macrame. | 15:00 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mrs. Johnson has left the room, but she's saying to me that she does macrame. That's good. | 15:12 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I did a lot of these hangings— | 15:18 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Oh my. | 15:22 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | —out of the three, and they fill them with flowers. And I made a wheelchair out of this thread, brown. They put the greenery in it. And it went as far as Raleigh from the district, and some person's rug went all the way to Mexico. But it competed with it until it got to Raleigh, and it had to stop in Raleigh. | 15:23 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That's beautiful. | 15:48 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | But I made a lot of odds and ends, and I just stopped on account of my eyes. I stopped sewing. | 15:49 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And, Mrs. Johnson, you gave me some good advice when I asked you about advice for young people, but is there another saying, maybe a quote that you'd like, or a Bible verse or a hymn, that's a favorite of yours that you would like to have on the record here, that you would like to be known by? | 16:12 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, I've always been enthused by this saying, and I don't know whether I can even repeat it or not. "If I could help somebody as I travel along this way, if I could help somebody with a word—" And now I'd almost forgotten it, but I often hear it and it just sticks rough me, "then my living would not be in vain." But I don't even know whether I can repeat it all. | 16:29 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That certainly gives the meaning that you're conveying. Then all my living will not be in vain. It's very nice. | 17:19 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That's the end of those questions. Now I have to show you a little form that I brought with me. In order for us to use these tapes to be able to put them in the library so that teachers and students can use them and learn from them, we have to get your permission. And so I brought along a form which we ask people to sign. I can read it for you if you like. It's an interview agreement, but— | 17:50 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Do you have to go through reading it? | 18:20 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Well, I don't mind. Just so you hear what it is. | 18:24 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Okay then. Okay. | 18:26 |
Rhonda Mawhood | It says, "The purpose of the Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South Project is to gather and preserve historical documents by means of tape recorded interviews. Tape recordings and transcripts resulting from such interviews become a part of the archives of the Behind the Veil collection of Duke University. This material will be made available for historical and other academic research and public dissemination, regulated according to the restrictions placed on its use by the interviewee. Duke University is assigned rights, title, and interest to the interviews unless otherwise specified. Participation in center for documentary studies project is entirely voluntary." | 18:27 |
Rhonda Mawhood | There's another section. That's the first introduction. There's another section that says, "We," meaning you and me, "have read the above, and we voluntarily offer the information contained in these oral history research interviews. In view of the scholarly value of this research material, we hereby permit Duke University to retain it without any restrictions," which, as you know, since you're a notary public, means that the university will keep it in the library. And people who need to do research on this period of history will be able to use it so that they can write books and make presentations and help people to understand the past as you knew it. Would that be all right with you, Mrs. Johnson? | 19:13 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. Yes. | 19:52 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Thank you. I'll print out your name, and if you can just sign. And I will sign the other side. I've made an X here, ma'am, and there's the line here to sign. Thank you. | 19:53 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I'll just ask you, have you always lived in Tillery, Ms. Johnson? | 0:02 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | No. | 0:05 |
Rhonda Mawhood | No. Okay. How long have you lived in Tillery? | 0:06 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Ever since '36. I moved here from Hertford County, Murfreesboro, where I was born. | 0:10 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And why did you move here to Tillery, Ms. Johnson? | 0:23 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | My father passed in '34, as he was a logger, and my mother was a sharecropper. She heard of land being distributed to farmers in Halifax County. So she was advised to come over here. Her roots was already off Halifax County. Some of her back parent was of Halifax County. | 0:27 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I had one year in school. My last year, I was presently three years in Waters Training School, Winton, North Carolina. So I graduated. Am I talking too fast? | 1:06 |
Rhonda Mawhood | No, ma'am. | 1:24 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I graduated back one year of '36 Weldon High School. After two year—years, I married. During the time I set the [indistinct 00:01:47] for different teachers. There were no other work and I was unable to attend college. I joined the club. My mother was already president of a Homemakers Club. After I had children, I joined a younger club, which I became active in taking part as all of officers, local, county and state. And then I began farming for 23 years. I took an active part in the community. I became PTA President, first woman president. We sought to improve our school by raising funds due to the condition of the school. | 1:26 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | We didn't have enough books. Their seats was worn. Our group began to circulate, and finally we asked for a better school or a school to be built from the ground up. We didn't get the school, even though ours burned down. We was moved to a previous all White school, which had four large rooms. Later, seven rooms, new rooms was added to that building. I began to work with a group that was interested in job hunting. We went into various offices and building in Halifax town asking for vacancies and applying for work. | 3:24 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | There were no work at that time. Later years, we organized Halifax County lower branch in NAACP in the Tillery area, which I was secretary of for a number of years. And in our Homemakers Club, I attended various workshops, income tax filing, international interracial work training at Woman's College in Greensboro. And every other group that I could associate with, I wanted to further my knowledge of skills and activities. | 4:44 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | We heard of voting. There were no one voting in our precinct, the Tillery area, because they had to go to Halifax. A teacher and I decided we would go to read the Constitution, and apply to vote. Our names was recorded. For a number of years I decided that why not serve at the poll? So I volunteered in getting others interested in voting. After which I served for the last 12 years as a judge, enjoying the work and the service that I was given. After I stopped farming, I began to work in other areas, sewing, school. I'm sort of running blank. | 5:55 |
Rhonda Mawhood | No, that's fine. You were working sewing and in schools? | 7:50 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. I worked three years in ESCA Elementary Education Act, and I would sew at home and sew in the sewing shop two years before retirement. There were many blocks and hardships in trying to work—get into work. And I felt I had skills because I had been brought up in a home that my mother was a seamstress, and I could quickly learn most in a job. But my age was a factor of the time I reached those areas. We, as a community group, fought for rights to work. So many was unprepared when we learned there were no work. | 8:05 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | It was sometime before doors was opened for anyone, and most of all, preparation was the answer. So we began to prepare ourselves in whatsoever workshop or training available through the community college which had began and other areas. During the time my children was in school. There were insufficient books and lots of secondhand school desks, even in high school, insufficient seating, overcrowded rooms, because the population had grown. Some parent taken children to the all White school to register, but was denied during that period. | 9:50 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Now that the doors are open, I would say to each and everyone, especially young adults, to get prepared to face the future. They can make a difference. I felt that I had made or made a difference to our community, to our church, as an usher and a secretary, and to the community as a 4-H chairperson for 12 years, and working at the poll 12 years. I can't think. You might have to ask something. | 11:28 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That's fine. That's a wonderful summary of a lot of things in your life, Ms. Johnson. I'd like to ask you questions about the different parts in life [indistinct 00:12:46]. Wonderful. You said that you made contributions to your community. It certainly sounds like you have. I'd like to go back and ask you about your parents a little bit. | 12:34 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Okay. | 13:07 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. | 13:07 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | My mother was born in Hertford County. Her back parents was of Halifax County, migrating to Hertford County. My father came from Florida and returned to Florida. He had relatives in Virginia. He was a logger. He worked on the water most of his life. He died at age 55, which was early now, as an age. He was a sort of Robinson Crusoe, if you might compare his life. | 13:09 |
Rhonda Mawhood | How is that? [indistinct 00:14:19]. Can you tell me? | 14:16 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | He loved the water. He worked on a skeeter boat or a house on the water. He would go in the, not the jungles but the woods, they call it the coasting. He made his own equipment to snake the logs where mules or animals could not move. And he used steers who could get on their knees and pull things through the mud logs in order to get them up on the hill to move them because trucks or other animals could not move like a steer, which is a male bull. And he lived on the water lots of his life. | 14:18 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | But my mother, sharecropping with my older, I was among the seven, the fifth one among the seven. She farmed, she sharecropped. And so when he passed with pneumonia, it was so close to everything. She heard of this settlement in Halifax County and decided she would try to get on this housing and land ownership. And just a few miles called P-Hill was some of her father's parent had lived, Corals not too far, five miles from Tillery. So she felt she was back home even though she had brothers and sisters in Hertford County. | 15:12 |
Rhonda Mawhood | How did your mother hear about the land that was being [indistinct 00:16:18]. | 16:14 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, down to the courthouse, there were no social service in our day, my day. And they were telling various people that a housing project was being set up. That was over on the tourist land over there going to Halifax. At that time, this one, it was five areas, Tillery, this is called Pierce, Blight Gate is further over, and Kitchen Farm is further around, and something called the Horseshoe is further over, that this land would be housed by the government under or after Hoover. The Hoover, the president. | 16:18 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mr. Roosevelt's government? | 17:16 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Mm-hmm. Yeah. Would start this. And people came from various counties and began to work the land and pay on the houses and the land for a number of years. Even though different ownership land, I mean the project pass through different ownerships. Some was good and some weren't so good. But there we learned that record keeping was a must, because a lot of people lost their farms on the count of they were overcharged and whatnot. So it was serious. During those '30s and early 40s, '36 through probably '40. Then things went into other hands, and went from one group to another group. | 17:17 |
Rhonda Mawhood | So did your mother keep these records that you were saying were important Ms. Johnson? | 18:27 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, we kept them, but even though my husband and I in 23 years farming, we failed to keep all of ours. And we had 37 acres out here that we had to sell to pay off a heavy expense that—actually we had paid on, but we didn't have a receipt to show. And we weren't the only one, but we were one. And that did cause right many people to lose their land, or it left me five acres to sit on and garden and hog chicken and whatnot. Sometime I think it was a good idea. I lost my husband in '89, and we had began on Social Security because he had stopped and rented out and began to work out. And because we would've dropped dead, I guess in the field, you see the mechanized farming came about airplane dusting, tractors, two or three farms behind one tractor, and we had muse and they turned to the machine. So that ultimatum of farming came about and people dropped out just so. And they just couldn't keep up with the new day. | 18:30 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Who did you sell your land to, Ms. Johnson when you sold it, you and your husband? | 20:09 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | To Edward Martin. The person that furnished the seed and fertilizer. The seeds and the fertilizers. | 20:13 |
Rhonda Mawhood | This is a White man, ma'am? | 20:24 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. He was getting it from Norfolk. And we heard that he hadn't paid his bills, so he was adding on a little extra to everybody else's, because some people who didn't raise tobacco was known to have a tobacco fertilized bill, even though they had leased their tobacco out, lockman out. And so it was sort of twisted. Everybody got a little sting. A little sting. | 20:25 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And does Mr. Martin still own this land ma'am, or did he sell? | 21:02 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Oh no, no, no. What happened, he got his money, but a Colored guy that has the second farm up the road needed extra land for his tractor. So he goes to the people, Will Wealth, the Federal Land Bank, and he buys it. And attaches it all to his bills, his home place. Then when he gets to the place, his children leaves, then he have to sell to somebody else to keep him from going under. So it's been turning over, turning over like that. So far it's another Colored guy has it. And I'm hoping that he can hold on, because we hope that there won't be somebody come in and offer him a large sum of money and build a hog farm near us. Then we will be in trouble. And that's what's happening now. We don't fault people from getting out of debt and selling the land. But it's hard when you got to live under a large hog operation. | 21:05 |
Rhonda Mawhood | This is an issue which is really, people are really concerned about these days, isn't it? | 22:33 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. Yes. Because it smells so long and so far. And it's all through the county now. | 22:39 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And Mrs. Johnson, you were saying that your mother was a sharecropper. | 22:49 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. | 22:53 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And her children helped her, I'm sure. | 22:53 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Oh yes. | 22:56 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And then she worked to get land in Tillery in the [indistinct 00:23:02] program. | 22:57 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Oh yes, yes, yes. | 23:01 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What were the differences between being a sharecropper and being a landowner in Tillery? | 23:02 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, the sharecropper at the end of the year, you work the land, you do all the work, you got your half and the owner of the land get their half. And here we had started the North Carolina Cooperation of farms from Washington. Started the people, you worked your lot. And they ran from 30, maybe 35 to 40 acres, depending on where they were located. Ours was 37 acres. And the land you pay on yearly, ours was $150 a year. So by the time we only owed about $700, because it was very cheap. Only $55 an acre. At that time in the '40s. '43. See, it was very cheap. And then you pay your taxes and you paid the insurance, and you had something left. | 23:09 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | And it went on like that maybe three or four years. And then we had the farm resettlement to come in. And they bought the first group out. They had a change, but it was similar. And then we had another group, Farmer's Home Administration, they came in. But every time a different group come in, somebody would be lost out. So it was elimination process all the way through until very few could keep their land, or is here today that started in the early days. But they did have a better. Because we had people to come here and teach us how to keep a record book, home agents to come in, teach you methods of canning and freezing and some of all types of modern housework and different things that as the world was upgraded, you was moving up with it. | 24:32 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And these agents who came in to teach these things, were they White or Black? | 25:51 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | They was both. The first one was Black. First one we had was White. She did tomatoes, only tomatoes. Then the county agent, he started with tomatoes first. Then we had White then we had Black, and we have White, and then we got Black, now we got Black and White. Two years one, two years the other. And in our extension home making, we move up higher and higher into more and more counties doing the same thing but different groups. | 25:55 |
Rhonda Mawhood | So you say you were the fifth of seven children? | 26:36 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. | 26:42 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And you were, was it 16 you were when you moved here with your mother? | 26:43 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | About 17 probably. I had one year at Weldon. And then you graduated at the 11th grade. Eight to 11. It wasn't nine to 12 like they're doing now. | 26:51 |
Rhonda Mawhood | So what kind of work did you and your brothers and sisters do on the farm with your mother? | 27:08 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | When she came over here in '36, we only tend peanuts, cotton, soybean, corn, well we tend the things Halifax County tend. When we was in Hertford County, we were younger, but we mostly had peanuts and tobacco and corn. Cotton wasn't the specialty in Hertford County. But here, very little tobacco on these farms. | 27:16 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And when did you first go to school, Mrs. Johnson? | 27:51 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Oh, my first schooling was in the rural part of Murfreesboro. That's Hertford County. I went at six years of age. I lived three miles from school. The old Gatling School House. I guess it was a Rosenwald School because it was built—in the first old school, I heard my older sister went to was a old church. But this was the Rosenwald School. And it had two large rooms, twice as large as this. The two teachers and about three grades in one room. | 27:55 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | And it was so far to walk. I lived within a quarter of a mile with my grandmother during the school nights. So I wouldn't have so far to walk because I was very tiny at that time. And then my brother, three years younger, when he began, we both stayed there, and would come home on Friday evenings. And then I went to high school at C.S Browns High School in Winton. That was the county seat of Hertford County located out there on the Shawan River. And I went there three years. And by that time when my mother moved, I had this one year to complete high school in. | 28:46 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What do you remember about your teachers from school, Mrs. Johnson? | 29:40 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, when I first entered up school, this teacher looked like me. She was large as that. But she was kind, and she had this long black gum whoop, looked like me. It ran up in the top of the building. And this big pot belly stove. And the phone rang, excuse me. All the time. [indistinct 00:30:17]. | 29:47 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That's okay. Here we go. Excuse me. There we go. [INTERRUPTION 00:30:15] | 30:14 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | [indistinct 00:30:26]. Wonderful, beginning from six up, and now the—but all the teachers had them long whoops. And in the winter that pot belly stove sit up in a corner. Either you was too hot or you was too cool. And we carried lunch buckets. And I had my little bucket, and I carried my little bucket. And talking about children eating, they ate because they carried food to school. I mean all kind of foods was in that bucket. | 30:55 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What kinds of food? | 31:35 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | If they decide to have baked potatoes, collared green, meat or fish or whatever, bread, whatever, molasses pudding, whatever they had that was in that bucket, they had those lard buckets. I don't think you seen one. But anyway, they had food and they ate it. And they were strong. German strong [indistinct 00:32:05]. I don't know why I was so small. And I had a little brother, he stammered. So he was slow learning. So I would have to hear his lesson every day. And I thought I was doing something. He was three years younger. I felt like I was doing something. I was teaching my brother. | 31:35 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | And we walked as we grew older, we walked, and it was lots of children in that area. The roads would be littered with children. Everybody went to school. Nobody hung in town. Everybody went to school. And those teachers were strict. And children learn. They learn. I don't know what's happened today. But they learned. That whoop, and that lunch bucket, and that keg of cold water brought up from the well sitting in that room, and you had your own drinking cup. Everything was in order. And children could walk miles and you wouldn't hear a fight between here and their home. Because if they did, the parents had got them when you got home, the teacher get them when you get back to school. So it was strict long then. | 32:34 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And you lived with your grandmother at this time, Mrs. Johnson? | 33:37 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. I would stay Monday night through Thursday night so that my sister would take me home Friday evening. And we walked to church about three miles too. We didn't want to ride on a little buggy, stuck all around it. We didn't want to ride on the rail cart. So we just walked. | 33:39 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What do you remember about your grandmother, Mrs. Johnson? | 34:11 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Oh, she was very strict too. I thought she was the meanest woman I ever looked at. She was a good cook. And she would sit and teach me at night, many, many things. And she was a good fairytale storyteller. And she really raised me a lot by me being with her. And then I stayed with her as I got older in the summer. She lost her husband. She married twice. And when she was younger she used to be a cook for a White lady. And she could really cook good. And she took care of a lady that was ill baby. She would nurse that baby, and she just care for it and all. And I would wait on her and she take care of the baby. Yeah. But she was very strict. | 34:14 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What kinds of things would she punish you for, Mrs. Johnson? | 35:27 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I wouldn't talk to her. I was like my father. He was a man of few words. And along then I didn't talk. My other sisters talked too much, but I wouldn't talk to her. And she said I was like my daddy and it angered me. So then I wouldn't talk. I was nice to her otherwise, but I just couldn't talk to her. | 35:33 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Why did it make you angry when she said you were like your daddy, Mrs. Johnson? | 36:00 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I don't know why she wanted to pick on my daddy. | 36:06 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I see. When she told you stories, what kind of stories did she tell you, Mrs. Johnson? | 36:13 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I don't know. They were old folks tales that didn't happen. She could have made them up or they could have happened. And remember some of them was old witch's tales and things like that. She had to talk something to amuse me. So she would tell me these old stories. Told me about a witch that came in the stable and the horse tail was tied up in knots. And she got the horse and rode the horse and the horse was wet. When the grandpa went out and looked at the horse, the witch was sitting up under the trough. And this thing in the oven, they would come to your house and you'd put a broom under on the step and the witch couldn't leave out in the house. Whole lots of funny things. And I was interested in listening to all of that, but I just couldn't talk otherwise. | 36:18 |
Rhonda Mawhood | So when you were a little girl, you went to school every day it sounds like? | 37:32 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Oh yes, yes. Everybody went to school, and I went to school every day. | 37:37 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And you continued going to school every day as you got older? | 37:42 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. Yes. | 37:47 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. | 37:47 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I was able to ride the bus when I went to high school. The year before I entered high school in the 8th grade. But the year before, you had to pay $5 to ride the bus. Then the county paid for the bus. The children parent didn't have to pay for the bus. So I could ride the bus without paying. | 37:50 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | But the school down in Winton, this Waters Training School I went to, we had to attend football games because the coach was my biology teacher, and he wanted us to understand. He'd draw the thing on the board and show us a touchdown. And there was some large boards in school. And they could play well from their surrounding area. And we had to carry dried beans, potatoes, molasses, everything you raised to the lunchroom because they boarded children from the fall. And we'd sell it for a nickel, and we'd pay that nickel for the go in, and we'd carry the other nickel to the cafeteria and buy something we could eat or drink. | 38:15 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did you ever learn any African American history or literature or anything like that in school, Mrs. Johnson? | 39:08 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | No, it wasn't in school. My only literature was American. I had three years of it, but it was all American. | 39:15 |
Rhonda Mawhood | So White American? | 39:25 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yeah. Yeah. | 39:27 |
Rhonda Mawhood | You mentioned going to church. | 39:33 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Oh yeah. | 39:35 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Have you told me about church, Ms. Johnson? | 39:36 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Oh yes. Well I joined at a early age over in Hertford County. And when I came over here, I attended the Sunday school and would help teach in the Sunday school in '36. Then after I married in '38, I joined the church. And this is my, well, 53 years that I've been in the Tillery church. | 39:38 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Which—I'm sorry. | 40:14 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | And I rang about 20—I've been ushering 23 years, but I have to give it up now due to my heart condition, my eye condition. But I'm still a usher. And I've served 17 years as the secretary, but I've given that up due to my eyesight. | 40:15 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Which church is that? Do you remember what [indistinct 00:40:48]. | 40:46 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | The one on the corner. Tillery Chapel. Tillery Chapel. The old church is up the road over the mill run. Just go through that little woods and you got to a old building. It's burned down now, but it's right across. | 40:48 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And is that a Baptist church? | 41:04 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. Yes. | 41:07 |
Rhonda Mawhood | How did you get ready to go to church when you were growing up, Ms. Johnson? | 41:13 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | What you mean? The transportation? | 41:20 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Transportation, getting dressed, how you got there. What did you do to prepare for church just before you went, I guess? | 41:23 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, as I say, I was a great sewer, and I made most of my clothing. So I would make certain clothes for the church and certain clothing for casual wear. And in attending the club, and our agent, I was in a lot of fashion shows and dress reviews from Raleigh back, so back in the county, it gave me a idea of what to wear when, so I could sew. So it helped me a lot in preparing my clothing at that time. And materials was cheap. | 41:32 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | So I would dress for the church in just the church clothing. And my mother and I, we didn't have a car, but someone would come by and pick us up and we would ride to church. At that time I was living on that side of the church, and the church was over the mill run over that neck of woods, up the highway. And when I moved over here, my husband and I had a old car. So he'd drive and I'd drive. And we'd take the children. And I'd take them to Sunday school all the time, because he'd find an excuse not to go, not to drive. I guess he was tired when he'd plowed all the week or something. He was tired. | 42:19 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What was the difference between the clothes that you wore other days of the week and the clothes that you saved for church, Mrs. Johnson? | 43:22 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | The little man can say, I saw them gus them up a little bit. Oh, most time I just have a straight, something might look like a house coat for my everyday wear. And I wore jeans for work because I'd be outdoors, indoors, all kind of things round the house and about. And I'd make a overblouse to use with that. And by being small, I love my little gathers and flares. So I would sort of gus it up a little bit. And I used to like my little round collars that give my little shoulders some boost. I used to wear little sashes, and everybody say I look like a child. And so I stopped wearing my bows in the back. I stopped putting them in the back. | 43:29 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That sounds nice. You say that you wore jeans around the house and to work. Did other women on the farms around here wear jeans too? | 44:50 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes, lots of them did. Lots of them. | 44:59 |
Rhonda Mawhood | So I'd like to ask you about your husband, Mrs. Johnson, if that's all right. | 45:06 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, he was born here in the Tillery area. I've forgotten now what place. A long time ago he said houses was on this ridge from Tillery all the way back. And all this was laying in the front and then over there was laying and people lived. And then you go down to the center, there was another ridge and people lived all the way down that. But the roads have changed now. And he went to school down in a area, about two miles, called Judy Bank. He went to school down in there. | 45:09 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | He was two years older than me. And I'm 77. And he said they would walk from up in here somewhere back down in there to school. But school didn't open before 9:00. So they had time to get there. And seemed like he got as far as the 6th grade. And his father owned the farm he was working. Put he and his brother to work. His brother left and went to the city with a aunt. It seemed like a husband was ill or something. But anyway, and it left him. | 45:57 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | He made some visits to Baltimore, to New York, to where some of his older people was, but not to stay or work. He didn't work. | 0:01 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Were his parents from this area also, Mrs. Johnson? | 0:18 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well his father was. His mother was from North Hampton County, right across the river, the Roanoke River, North Hampton. She was born over there. | 0:21 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And where did you meet your husband, Mrs. Johnson? | 0:36 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I met him here after I came here, at church. But I met him over here. | 0:38 |
Rhonda Mawhood | So you just met each other at church? | 0:48 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, I saw him at church first and seemed like his cousin, a lady, I don't know where she had her birthday party or some, anyway, it was something to do and she introduced me to—yeah, we had lived together, let's see, we got married in '38, we were a little over 50 years, I reckon. Time go away so fast. Anyhow, we got old together. We farmed 23 years, and then both us went out and worked. He did go to Richmond and worked with the group building the Fort Morris cigarette place before he retired. | 0:50 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And how many children did you have? | 1:53 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Five. | 1:54 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Five children? | 1:56 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes, four boys and one girl. My daughter is dead. She had cancer, the breast first. She lived six years, and then it went in her bones and other parts of the body. | 1:56 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And did your children work on the farm with you when you were farming, Ms. Johnson? | 2:19 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | My daughter never did, she worked out summers mostly. She stayed in Baltimore with my mother. My mother went to Baltimore after she and my brother, they couldn't buy, that's what happened, in '43. Only their husband and wife could purchase the farm, so they went to Baltimore because my older sister was there, and my brother went there and worked, so my mother went. So then she took my daughter up there and my daughter worked during the summers, and she went to Elizabeth City State Teachers College. That's about 100 miles away in Pasquotank County. And from time to time, she would work during the summer until her last year of schooling, and she became a teacher. She taught 17 years before she'd taken ill. And she had two children. | 2:24 |
Rhonda Mawhood | You had mentioned that you taught also. | 3:32 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, mine was substitute work. I did that before I had any children. It was quite a while before I had any children. I did that for later from Enfield, and one from Roanoke Rapid at the old school. And then I did that again, Bakers is near Scotland Neck and Dawson is near Scotland Neck, so I put in for sub work and I did that in between. But I wasn't farming then, I had stopped farming. I had stopped three years doing aid work, working under the teachers, and then I started substituting. | 3:35 |
Rhonda Mawhood | So you worked in many different schools. | 4:33 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. | 4:35 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What was that like? Going to different schools to work. | 4:40 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, it was compelling. I'd prepare this morning in case somebody called, because you're supposed to be ready in your vehicle, and everything ready, and nobody called. Tomorrow morning, you have somewhere you want to go, and somebody would call you to come. So it was like that. | 4:41 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And did you teach in schools? You mentioned when you went to school, there were students who were small and there were students in their 20s. Did you teach in schools like that, Ms. Johnson? | 5:10 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, no. Children began to, I'll tell you, drop out. Never seen so many dropouts. They began to drop out in the second and third last year of school as the years pass. So it wasn't these older children in school like it was when I went to school. They were in their teens, but they weren't old like some of them was, because they looked like grown men, but some of them stayed in school to play ball. They played football and they were large as any man, but the teachers kept them in there. They weren't passing, just kept them in school. And school was very short. | 5:22 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I'd like to ask you a question about segregation itself. How were the lines of segregation drawn in the places where you lived? | 6:27 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I didn't understand too much about it over in Hertford County because where I grew up, we had Sunday school. Our church was in the heart of the small town and we had a White lady for the piano, director and player, and when revival time come, the week of preaching and whatnot, we sit in the back of the church to the revival nights to listen to the revival preaching. And they would come in our church and listen. We had separate buildings but we interact just the same. If we went fishing, my mother would be down popping peanuts for the plant because then you shell your peanuts that was planted, and the neighbor would be down there, they would be shelling their peanuts, and everybody would be fishing, and talking, and working. So I didn't understand it then, but when I came over here and grew up a little more, I could see the workplaces and see the school more. | 6:41 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | And I could see a line drawn much more than I was raised with. Because my mother was a good cook and my grandmother was a good cook. And White neighbors, if one got sick, she would go over and cook, and carry. And if she got down or something with her child, my mother and me, they would come over, and wash, and do. So I didn't know nothing about this tightrope until I grew up and came over. I grew up, I say, over here, I was getting older, and I could see more and understand more, until we got ready to vote and we couldn't vote. We was denied to vote, we was denied a lot of things, work, we were denied. Or we had to be overqualified to get a job. If a vacancy was there and all. There was a lot of things that came to light. Even though in my work, I could work with all ethnic groups. And now, my father, his grandfather was Indian, and we had one territory where they didn't do anything but just visit each other. | 8:19 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Good morning. | 10:20 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | That's my son that live with me. | 10:23 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Oh, I see. | 10:24 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Two or three days a week. Yeah, keep the heat out, we'll make it. | 10:26 |
Rhonda Mawhood | You were talking about the things that African American people were denied here when you moved here, and grew up, and saw, Mrs. Johnson. | 10:38 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yeah, we have fought in groups for many movements, we have fought our way, you might say, into society. And we had good people, we had educated people, we had people with good skills and all, but most of the time the vacancies, they said, weren't there. What can you say if there's no vacancy? You move on. | 10:50 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Was this around about the 1960s, [indistinct 00:11:40]? | 11:37 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Oh yes, leading all the way up to it. | 11:40 |
Speaker 1 | Excuse me. | 11:43 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Good idea. | 11:48 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Turning it back on. | 11:48 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | It'll be something to interfere. | 11:52 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And so in the 1960s, you were working for people's right to work? | 12:01 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. That was really the highlight of the movement, to get in people to help us in opening avenues that led to the struggle of the civil rights. Because there were one man, Dr. Duren that came from Raleigh, and one of [indistinct 00:12:44] men that was in the movement, myself, a doctor's wife, and another person's wife, we challenged the ASC office, we challenged the courthouse and the health center. And there were only one Black person holding a job, which was a nurse. So we've asked for applications, but they said they didn't have vacancies at that time, and they could hold as long as they were able to work. | 12:06 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | And then, we had other people to come in and we continued to struggle to see. But the worst was our voting, trying to vote. So many people couldn't read the Constitution, so we had somebody from Franklinton Center to come down, and at that time, our building was the Franklinton Center building, and we bought it from them, so to come down and teach the Constitution. Because we had a lot of elderly people and after that they were able to read, so that wouldn't stop them from being able to vote. And that was one of the greatest issues I think we conquered during that waiting period. There were others, but I just can't get them together. | 13:33 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That one, I'm sure is very important. When you moved here to Tillery, Ms. Johnson, so when you were a young adult, did anyone talk about voting ever? Do you remember that when you were growing up? | 14:46 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Oh, no. I never heard or there were no speaking of voting until '40s, '50s. I worked 12 years. Let's see now, I worked at the poll 12 years, but I was voting so many years before that. I'm trying to think, when did some of the elderly people go to Halifax and vote? They were voting at Halifax, Scotland Neck, Enfield, but not in Tillery. And it was very few, it was the man live across there, elderly man, one over the Tillery farm, and two more. They would go to Halifax. | 15:02 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | So what we wanted is to open a poll in Tillery. At that time, it was over 400 people eligible of age in Tillery [indistinct 00:16:24] precinct that could vote, including the young ones, the old ones, and all. Because on the book we had over 500 people one time and some died, some young ones going away, and it's down now to around 300 and some. And the next thing, as we got them so they could vote, got it opened up, haul them to the poll, it's hard now to get them to come in and vote. We can get 300. That's around the figure that we can get. | 16:10 |
Rhonda Mawhood | So now it's hard to get people to vote. | 17:06 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes, some. We'd get the majority, but we don't get them all. And I understand every precinct does have that problem. And they're not only Black, the White doesn't come in. It seemed like they lost interest. | 17:08 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Do you remember who first mentioned voting to you, Mrs. Johnson? | 17:33 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I'm trying to think. I knew, I had heard rather, these four older men was going to Halifax and I was saying to a young male teacher that lived across the farm, "Why do we have to go to Halifax when we have 4, 500 people around here?" See, our line runs from Spring Hill back to 561 and Crowell. Why do we have to go to Halifax when we got enough people for a precinct? So first, we had to get the board knowledgeable of the people here, get the precinct board, because they didn't know. So after getting them to understand that we had enough people that we could open a voting place, and we had one man, Mr. Alfred Cook, owns one of the stores, his father's old store, he was very instrumental. And Mr. Jack Jones, he's dead and gone, but very instrumental in getting the people to open up in Tillery. So we had help because much better than had to go to Halifax or Scotland Neck. | 17:42 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Thank you, Ms. Johnson. I'd like to ask you about something which is not very nice at all, but which we'd like to know more about if we can, which is before the Civil Rights Movement, during the period where segregation was still very strong, do you remember hearing of violence between Whites and Blacks around here? | 19:22 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I may have, but I can't address it to my knowledge too well. I know we always had some people did more talking actually than they did work, but I always followed the working people. And so when it was a lot of unrest, I never was in the unrest. And they were doctors, they were lawyers, they were teachers, they were preachers, and all that I was following during my time. | 19:50 |
Rhonda Mawhood | The people who you say did more talking than working, can you tell me a little more about them? What kind of talking? | 20:54 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, that's what I want to strain my memory to understand when it occurred and what happened, because I'm not too much aware of it. It didn't occur with the group that I followed. That's all I can remember. | 21:07 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Thank you, Ms. Johnson. And there's one more question, which isn't very nice but I'll ask anyway also, did you know anyone or hear of anyone, Black people, men or women, going to jail in this area ever? | 21:39 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Oh yeah, for other reasons. | 21:58 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What kind of reasons? | 22:00 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Now, that is something else. Let me see if I can voice it enough. If I can get this tied in together, there is a old school building that was recently—children moved from it because they said it wasn't sufficient children to spend money on, spend large sums of money on. Our population went down a few years ago. I mean children went down, and they were bused and moved by the school. And we had the issue, if we as concerned citizen could get that building and use it for a home for sick people who may need some assistant or help, people who live alone, and we do have lots of people living one person in a home around here, men and women, disabled and whatnot. But there was a sewing plant that came in and purchased the building from the commissioners. I know there was a struggle on that. | 22:06 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | And they didn't use it long, they ripped it up and fixed it, and went there a while, and found out they didn't stay, and they moved away and left the building. Because the people who own it now, they don't use it. The sewing people. And it just bothered what we had in mind could be used to give more people jobs. And I think jobs was the answer to what we were planning. And when we met the commissioners, and I was given two or three pages to read what we had planned to do with the building if we could purchase the building, we as the concerned citizen, but it had already been decided. And we had people that live around here was with the sewing group, and it hurt for some of our own people to go against it and somebody else get it. So it got pretty rough and one lady did destroy the sound system, the work, and went to jail, some more talk and they took them to jail. But that was another issue, it wasn't the voting issue. | 24:11 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And I guess that was pretty recently that happened too? | 26:06 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | No. Well, it was passed a year ago. Don't trust my memory. It was passed a year ago, yes. So we lost that building for a community use, which it would've been good to have it. | 26:11 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Thank you, Ms. Johnson. You mentioned to me that you've been involved in a lot of different groups. You were involved in the Homemakers Club, you're PTA President, you were Secretary of the NAACP. Maybe I'll start asking you about the Homemakers Club. What kinds of things did the Homemakers Club do when they got together, ma'am? | 26:30 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, we just have the local club and various communities. We have a agent to come out twice, but we have little lessons that we go to the office in Halifax and listen to. Then we have what you call a group area meeting that some things is taught in the area meeting, and these is food for health, care of clothing, just the daily things of life, everything that you meet up with. And we do have a district meeting and we pay dues, which some goes to the state, some of the money, some goes to Girls Haven, we call it the Bad Girls, and some goes to charitable, such as the Rescue Squad. We give here the Recreation for Children, Red Cross, and the Ronald McDonald House. But mostly, it's an enlightenment for rural women. | 26:57 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And are those the kind of activities that the Homemakers Club was involved in several decades ago also, when your mother was president? | 28:50 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, we didn't have as wide a range we have today because now, we have district, we have state, and we have all of the levels that we can help. For example, every club member gave a dollar to finance $1,000 well for Guatemala, piping water down on those people who couldn't get the water. And then they have a other project that was done together, and there is a lot of women that travel actually are around the world and work with various projects. So it's much broader today where they was mostly trying to update homes and help. Today, we reach out in the foreign world and help. | 28:58 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And when was it that you were the president of the PTA, Mrs. Johnson? | 30:25 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Oh boy. | 30:32 |
Rhonda Mawhood | [indistinct 00:30:33]. | 30:32 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yeah, it must have been in the '50s. I know we were in the old school before we went up Tillery to the second school. | 30:34 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And how was it that you got to be president of the PTA, ma'am? | 30:50 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | There was an elderly man, very old, was president, and we had these new people come in from various counties, homesteading, and they had new ideas. And we began then to look into the school and it was the old school, look into a new school. And so, well, they just voted me as a president because I guess they felt that I could go along with them much better than this older, older person. I had children and I saw the needs of better conditions, more space, and better books as we complain to the central office what we needed and to the school. Oh yeah, we were busy traveling, so they decided they would vote on me as a president. | 30:55 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What kinds of ways did you use to try to get the new school, to make people listen to you? | 32:24 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, we had a group to speak for us at the Board of Education, on the Monday night, they met, and asked for a new school. In some other area, they had built a new school from the ground up. It so happened during that time, this old stove that sat in there had set this ceiling afire and burned it down, so they placed us in this White school up on the other end of Tillery, but it still wasn't enough rooms. And then we continued to ask for additional rooms, so we got seven classrooms then, modern classrooms, bathroom and whatnot. And later, instead of hauling the lunch from another school, we asked for a lunchroom, so we got the lunchroom in next couple of years. And then the children got fewer and fewer, people went out to work, they wouldn't have children, so children become scarce, so we lost the school. | 32:32 |
Rhonda Mawhood | When was it that the NAACP was formed around here? Was that in the '50s or the '60s? | 34:20 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I know we went to New Jersey to the '47 annual convention, it was Nixon when he was Vice President, 1947, so we had been operating then maybe two or three years. Let's see. I'm still in the thing. Yes, okay. I moved in '43, so it probably was, I'd say, two years. So '43, '44, it's '47. So maybe we began in '45 with the NAACP, organizing the NAACP, the Laurel Halifax County branch. And we got lots of information through that on several issues. | 34:34 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What issues were those, Mrs. Johnson? | 35:32 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I mean there were speakers that would come each year or two, something we formed as a banquet, and each speaker would shed a little light on—what you call it? Our rights to various things. I guess that's what you'd call it, | 35:37 |
Rhonda Mawhood | The civil rights? | 36:03 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, I guess so. | 36:05 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What kind of rights? | 36:07 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Trying to move our citizenship from second class, your right for this, your right for that because years before, our train station, we had two parts, Colored and White. We had restrooms likewise, the buses was likewise, front and back, and you go to buy hotdogs or something, the little window, you'd go to the window to buy, you didn't go in and take a seat. And it was lots of things that you was excluded from, and lots of these people came from the North and they began to push us into our rights, to speak, the right to do. And from that led these marches and various things, sit-ins, and speak-ins, and all. | 36:11 |
Rhonda Mawhood | You mentioned the word second class citizen, Mrs. Johnson. Did you ever feel that someone was trying to make you feel that way? Someone wasn't treating you right? | 37:24 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Individually, me, I could move on. Somehow, I had a knack to move on. I can't explain it and I'm not bragging, but I've been accepted in a lot of things that I've seen other people denied. That's about all I can say. And I don't know why. I guess attitude, perseverance, personality, anything you might call it, I can move on when I've seen others denied. So I don't know why. | 37:49 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What kind of things would you be able to achieve that other people might be denied, Mrs. Johnson? | 38:40 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | If I tried to explain it, it would look that I was bragging or something, and I don't want to show that I would be bragging or nothing like that. Because with God, my helper, it might mean just something that helped me to move. Because a lot of things, as I say, I was accepted in and I can't explain it. I appreciate it, but I can't explain it. | 38:54 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I'm sure you're not bragging at all, I'm sure. | 39:44 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | No. | 39:47 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I think you've managed to achieve [indistinct 00:39:49]. | 39:47 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I'd rather do the work and let somebody else praise it or see it than to try to give myself the pat. They might call me a witch. | 39:48 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | There's a lot of ups and downs now, and I might have had more downs than I have up, but I always managed to get it up. If it wasn't for them downs, I wouldn't have no cause to want to get up. | 40:15 |
Rhonda Mawhood | If you don't want to praise yourself, maybe I can ask you about other people. Where did you get the strength to do all the work that you did, Mrs. Johnson? | 40:33 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | I don't know. My mother always told me to stand up and look up if I didn't feel like getting up, but I don't know. She always was like Confucius, she always had something to say. And don't mention, as I told you, my grandmother. But I enjoyed it. I just enjoy it. Some people do because they're told to do, I do because I love to do. | 40:48 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And was your husband involved in these causes of work to you, Mrs. Johnson? | 41:45 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | He wouldn't be involved in anything if you would push him with a 10 foot pole. He said, "You'd go too much, you'd do too much, you is a people puppet. If somebody call, you answer." And could be a neighbor in trouble or a neighbor needed some help. I was right there. All around me, lots of them going on, and I'm here struggling that I have been a help in words, and comfort, and whatnot too. And he would fuss with me about that, and I guess by me being that way, it caused him to draw back further than he would. | 41:51 |
Rhonda Mawhood | But you kept on with the work? | 43:07 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. And then enjoyed every minute of it. | 43:09 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Once you had registered to vote, Mrs. Johnson, did your husband also register? | 43:19 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes. Then I got him studying, and he was able to read the Constitution and all that, and then he came on and voted. And then we had something called the Challenge Day on the last Saturday in that month, everybody would go to see if their name was on the book, because it was just a piece of paper they were taking the names on. And so we'd go back to challenge to see if other names was there. | 43:23 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And were they there? | 43:59 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yes, they were there. | 43:59 |
Rhonda Mawhood | You wanted to check? | 44:03 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Yeah. And now, it's so easy. Even when they get their driver's license, they register them right then, those young guys. | 44:06 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did you talk to your own children about politics? | 44:31 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Oh yes. My daughter was in Greensboro during a sit-in at a lunch counter. I was so afraid she would be hurt. She left Elizabeth City, and they did it there, and they did it up there. It took all of that just to show we meant what we was asking for. Just give us a break. | 44:33 |
Rhonda Mawhood | How did your husband feel about your daughter's political activities? | 45:05 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, he was very frightened. | 45:08 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I don't want to tire you out. | 45:23 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Oh no, it's not bothering. | 45:24 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Thank you. I'd like to switch maybe to another area and ask you some things about healthcare. I know there's a wonderful community curing house here and now, but I'd like to ask about the earlier times. When you were growing up, Ms. Johnson, when someone in your family got sick, what would you do? | 45:28 |
Ruth Stewart Johnson | Well, living over here in my family, my own children family, we didn't have but one doctor almost in each town, and we didn't go to the doctor as often as people go now. And there were older people in the community and I thought they knew everything. If a child had a temperature, they knew something for that, and they grew all kind of herbs from garlic, sage, and tansy, and catnip, and— | 45:53 |
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