Walter Leonard interview recording, 1993 July 02
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Transcript
Transcripts may contain inaccuracies.
Rhonda Mawhood | —where you grew up? | 0:04 |
Walter Leonard | I grew up right here in Rocky Mount over there in Little Raleigh. | 0:06 |
Rhonda Mawhood | In Little Raleigh. | 0:08 |
Walter Leonard | That's another part of town, Little Raleigh. Right. | 0:11 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What did your parents do, sir? | 0:15 |
Walter Leonard | My dad, he was a farmer down to the railroad. My mother was just a housewife. There were six children in the family, three boys and three girls. I'm the oldest boy. I had two sisters older than I was, two sisters older than I was and one sister younger than I was. One brother, he died in 1952, my brother that's younger than I. Now see, he younger—under me. My brother next to me, not old as I am but next to oldest, he died in 1958. Only two of us lives here now, me and my sister, my only sister. All of them were born here in Rocky Mount. All of us born in Rocky Mount. | 0:17 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did you know your grandparents? | 1:26 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, I didn't know my grandparents at all, no. | 1:28 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Was your father away from home a lot? | 1:34 |
Walter Leonard | No, he died. He died in 1919. No, wait a minute. 1919. My daddy died in 1919. My mother died in 1962, '63. | 1:38 |
Rhonda Mawhood | How old were you when your father died, sir? | 1:58 |
Walter Leonard | I was 11 years old when my father died. I made it. I'm 65 and—I'm 85 now. | 2:00 |
Rhonda Mawhood | So you were the oldest boy. | 2:13 |
Walter Leonard | I'm the oldest boy, yeah. | 2:14 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And your father died when you were 11? | 2:15 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. | 2:16 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did your mother remarry, sir? | 2:18 |
Walter Leonard | No, she did not. | 2:19 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did you have special responsibilities? | 2:23 |
Walter Leonard | Well, I was the oldest boy at home. That's right, that's right. I was the oldest boy at home, and it was two sisters older than I was. | 2:27 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Would you say that after your father died, you became the man of the house? | 2:40 |
Walter Leonard | I'm man of the house. Yeah, that's right. 11 years old, all right. | 2:45 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What was that like for you? | 2:52 |
Walter Leonard | Well, it was kind of tough. I was the oldest one in the house. I was the oldest boy at the house, and I had to get a job then and go to work. But I went to school until I finished the 8th grade. | 2:54 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Where did you go to school? | 3:12 |
Walter Leonard | Here in Rocky Mount. | 3:13 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Do you remember the name of the school? | 3:14 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. Lincoln School. | 3:15 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Lincoln School. What was your first job that you got, sir? | 3:21 |
Walter Leonard | Well, a shoeshine boy at the railroad station. My first job, I actually did different houses. I worked with an ice man. That was my first job. Then I got a job shining shoes at the railroad station. All right. | 3:24 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What do you remember about your jobs, I guess the one shoe shining? What do you remember about that job? | 3:54 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, shoe shining. Well, I can't remember a thing about it. No. | 4:00 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did you like it? | 4:00 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, I liked it all right. I worked at a railroad shop. I mean, I shined shoes at the railroad station until I was 11, about 11 or something like that. Then I started working at a hosiery mill, a mill that makes stockings. I worked at the hosiery mill until about 11 or 12— about 13 or 14. Then I started shining shoes at the railroad station, and then I went from the railroad station to the railroad shop. The railroad had a shop down the side, the Atlantic Coastline Railroad Shop, and I was doing that. I worked at the railroad shop. I worked at the railroad shop for seven years, and I got cut off at the railroad shop, got cut off at the railroad shop when I was about 16 to 17. When I was cut off at the railroad shop by 17 or 18 years old, that's when I started playing baseball. I played baseball until I was 55, 55. | 4:12 |
Rhonda Mawhood | So you played baseball from the time you were about 17 or 18? | 5:41 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. I started playing baseball then, and I was playing baseball until I was up in age. I played on that station, the local station. It's that local station, 1925. I played. That's my picture on the end down there. | 5:44 |
Rhonda Mawhood | There you are. | 6:10 |
Walter Leonard | Yes. | 6:10 |
Rhonda Mawhood | The Rocky Mount Railroaders. | 6:12 |
Walter Leonard | Yes. That's a city station team up there, Rocky Mountain City Team, Colored team. Colored team now, because we had White and Colored team. That's the Colored team, all right. | 6:13 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. You started playing baseball professionally when you were 17 or 18, but did you play for fun when you were younger? | 6:34 |
Walter Leonard | I played professional baseball in '34. 1934, playing professional baseball. I played professional baseball from 1934 until 1955. Played about 20 years or 23 years professional baseball, and I quit playing professional baseball in 1955. I hung around town here at the undertaker's place for two years, and I got a job as a truant officer in Rocky Mount. | 6:46 |
Rhonda Mawhood | You were a truant officer? | 7:21 |
Walter Leonard | A truant officer, yeah. | 7:21 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did the kids like you very much? | 7:26 |
Walter Leonard | No, they didn't like me much. | 7:27 |
Rhonda Mawhood | How did you get that job as the truant officer? | 7:32 |
Walter Leonard | Well, they tried to give baseball players and old professional players—the city would hire them, and the city gave me this job as a truant officer. They had a woman that was a truant officer before I had the job. Then I got the job in 1958 as truant officer. I was truant officer until 1973. I started being a truant officer in 1958, and I was truant officer until 1973. Then I was dealing a little real estate around here, a real estate broker. I was a real estate broker from '73 until I retired from the railroad broker about seven, eight years ago. I retired. I'm a retired baseball officer. I belong to the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, New York now. | 7:36 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Yes, sir. I see your plaque that you have there. | 8:55 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, yeah. | 8:57 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. Well, I'd like to come back to your work, but I'd like to ask you some questions about growing up. | 9:04 |
Walter Leonard | All right. Yeah. | 9:08 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Let me see. Did you like school? | 9:19 |
Walter Leonard | Like school? | 9:19 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 9:20 |
Walter Leonard | Well, I liked school. Yeah. As school was then, I liked that. I went to school in 1921. 1921, I came out of school. That's the last year I went to school in 8th grade. At the 8th grade, and that's all they had in Rocky Mount for Colored in 1921. The 8th grade was all they would have here. | 9:20 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Do you remember any of your teachers? | 9:54 |
Walter Leonard | Ms. Baskerville. Ms. Susie Baskerville was my teacher. Susie Baskerville, S-U-S-I-E. S-U-S-I-E B-A-S-K-E-R-V-I-L-L-E. | 9:55 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Thank you. | 10:05 |
Walter Leonard | And principal Rob Pope was the principal of the school. Rob Pope was principal of the school. | 10:08 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What did Ms. Baskerville teach you? | 10:13 |
Walter Leonard | Well, she was just teaching the whole class at that time, just teaching the whole class. All the subjects the children was taking in the 8th grade, she was teaching that. | 10:18 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What do you remember about Ms. Baskerville? | 10:37 |
Walter Leonard | Well, we called her mean. We called her mean. Well, she was strict, see. | 10:39 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Why did the kids call her mean? | 10:48 |
Walter Leonard | Well, because she wouldn't let them do anything they wanted to do in the class. | 10:48 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. What kinds of things did kids want to do in the class? | 10:49 |
Walter Leonard | Well, the children, you know when you have a 16 or 17 year old, they cut up. She was strictly business, strictly business. | 11:02 |
Rhonda Mawhood | When you did cut up in school or at home, who disciplined you? Who punished you when—maybe you were never bad, but if you were bad, who punished you? | 11:15 |
Walter Leonard | Well, my daddy died when I was 11, so I didn't have him anymore. Only person who was disciplining was the school teacher. Ms. Baskerville was a strict school teacher. She was strict. You went to school, you learned your lesson with her. | 11:27 |
Rhonda Mawhood | When your mother punished you, how did she punish you? | 11:52 |
Walter Leonard | Well, she'd use the strap as long as she could. You know how children get managed. My daddy was dead and then I would have it under her managership. She was strict with me. I had two sisters older than I was, and I had two boys, brothers that was younger than I was and one sister younger than I was. My sister is still living in Washington, D.C now. | 12:07 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did your older sisters help your mother to take care of you? | 12:47 |
Walter Leonard | Yep. They helped keep the younger children straight. | 12:53 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. Did your family go to church when you were growing up? | 13:01 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. We went to St. James Church on West Thomas Street. No, East Thomas Street. | 13:02 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. What kind of church is that, sir? | 13:13 |
Walter Leonard | Baptist. Baptist church. | 13:14 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What do you remember about church when you were growing up? | 13:21 |
Walter Leonard | Well, I remember the teachers in the church on Sundays, they taught the Bible school on Sundays. Then we'd occasionally have every day of the week. Now, pardon me, I don't talk nice. | 13:24 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That's fine. I understand. I understand what you say. If I don't, I would ask you to repeat, but I do understand all you're saying so that's fine. Thank you. I'm used to not understanding people here. I have to learn the accents. People have to learn how to understand me. | 13:50 |
Walter Leonard | Well, I talked all right. I talked straight along until I had the stroke, see. Then I have been disabled since I had the stroke. I don't talk plain now. | 14:01 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Well, I'm not having any problem understanding you, so I'm happy about that. | 14:13 |
Walter Leonard | All right. | 14:15 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. Did you enjoy going to church when you were going? | 14:18 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. I enjoyed going to church. I was a member of that church down in St. James Baptist Church. It was a Baptist church, St. James Baptist Church. | 14:23 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Do you remember your baptism, sir? | 14:27 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, I remember the school Sunday. We were baptized then on Sundays. You were baptized on the end of the Falls River Bridge on Sunday. Baptized 152 the Sunday I was baptized, 152. | 14:28 |
Rhonda Mawhood | By the Falls River Bridge? | 14:48 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, Falls River Bridge. | 14:48 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That's a lot of people. | 14:50 |
Walter Leonard | Yes. They started the baptism that day over by the river. There was a whole reunion. Then we were baptized once a year. Once a year, that was the time of the year. | 14:51 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What time of year was it, sir? | 15:19 |
Walter Leonard | Oh. Well, it was summertime out there we were baptized in the river. If we were baptized in the winter even, then when we would get out of the river, the preacher baptized you. And you ride back home and you're very, very cold, see. | 15:22 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. So you had to do it in the summer. | 15:39 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. Had to do it. | 15:39 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. Did people celebrate the baptism? | 15:47 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. They celebrated it. Yeah. | 15:49 |
Rhonda Mawhood | How did they celebrate a baptism? | 15:52 |
Walter Leonard | Well, I don't know. I can't remember now how they celebrated, but they did. | 15:54 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. Thank you. Did the church organize fun things to do, like picnics or anything like that? | 16:03 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. We had a picnic. We had the Sunday—by the middle of the year, they'd have baptism, see. And they baptize you in the Sundays down there, and then it would be in the wintertime when the school was warm. | 16:08 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did your family pray together outside of church? | 16:41 |
Walter Leonard | Well, they prayed together right along with you. | 16:46 |
Rhonda Mawhood | When you started playing baseball and traveling around, did you continue to go to church, Mr. Leonard? | 16:58 |
Walter Leonard | Well, I always come home during the winter, come to Rocky Mount in the winter. I went to church, Sunday school then, but I didn't go during the baseball season up there. Now, you want to know something about my baseball now? | 17:03 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I would like to, yes. | 17:22 |
Walter Leonard | Well, you can ask stuff when you get ready. | 17:23 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. I have a couple of other questions first and then I'd like to ask you about that. | 17:25 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, all right. | 17:29 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. When you were a little boy, who did you look up to? Who did you admire? | 17:33 |
Walter Leonard | I admired my mother because she was the only one at home. She was left to raise the children. My daddy died when I was 11 years old, so that meant that we had to come up the best way you could. | 17:39 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And your mother did a good job? | 17:57 |
Walter Leonard | Yes. She did a good job. | 17:59 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What did your mother teach you about how to be a good man and a good husband? | 18:03 |
Walter Leonard | She always taught to teach and to be honorable to grown people. That's right. | 18:14 |
Rhonda Mawhood | How did your mother teach you to behave towards Black adults and White adults? | 18:27 |
Walter Leonard | Well, she told me a person just about grown, to respect the grown people. That's what she taught us. | 18:35 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Black and White? | 18:47 |
Walter Leonard | Black and White. | 18:47 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did you know very many White people when you were growing up? | 18:51 |
Walter Leonard | Quite a few. Quite a few. | 18:54 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What kinds of people? What kinds of White people did you know? | 18:59 |
Walter Leonard | Well, I knew the boss man at the hosiery mill. I know all the roles, see. They had a White over the mill and a Black over the mill. I would get the Colored over the mill and had a White over the mill. | 19:01 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Living in Rocky Mount, did you play with White children when you were growing up? | 19:23 |
Walter Leonard | No, I didn't play with no—uh-uh. The races didn't mix then. The races did not mix then. | 19:34 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did your mother talk to you about that ever? | 19:38 |
Walter Leonard | Well, she talked to me to respect White people and Colored people too, grown people older than you. That's right. | 19:41 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did you ever ask your mother or someone else why the races didn't mix? | 19:51 |
Walter Leonard | Well, the races didn't mix during that time. That was around 1913 and '14, the races didn't mix then. | 19:56 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I was just wondering if maybe you were a little boy, did you wonder why? | 20:07 |
Walter Leonard | No, I didn't wonder why. Well, I just know not to mix, was separate then. That's right. | 20:12 |
Rhonda Mawhood | When did people start treating you like an adult, like a man? | 20:28 |
Walter Leonard | Well, when I was around 19 or 20, 21, they started to treat me like I was a man. | 20:33 |
Rhonda Mawhood | But not— | 20:40 |
Walter Leonard | Not before. Not before. | 20:41 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Do you know why that changed when you were around 19 or 20? | 20:46 |
Walter Leonard | Well, I think that I just got a little older and my age caused them to respect me. That's right. | 20:50 |
Rhonda Mawhood | When did you get married, Mr. Leonard? | 20:58 |
Walter Leonard | Well, I got married the first time in 1925. First it would take seven years from 1907 to '25, and between that time I was single. I got married when I was 25. | 21:00 |
Rhonda Mawhood | You got married when you were 25 the first time? | 21:20 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, 25. I would've gotten older then, but I wouldn't behave myself. When I was playing ball, I wouldn't behave myself. | 21:21 |
Rhonda Mawhood | You didn't behave yourself when you were playing ball? | 21:32 |
Walter Leonard | Well, I tried to. I tried to. | 21:36 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Do you want to tell me about any of that? | 21:36 |
Walter Leonard | No. I'd rather not tell you about that. | 21:36 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. The first time you got married when you were 25. | 21:47 |
Walter Leonard | Yep. | 21:49 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Then the second time? | 21:50 |
Walter Leonard | The second time was in 1930. My wife died. My wife died. I got married in '37, in 1937 when I first got married. For the first time, I got married. I was 25, and I stayed married 28 years for my first marriage. I've been married about eight years since then. I've been married about eight years to this woman. I would like to tell you how long I stayed single. | 21:53 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Yes, sir. | 22:26 |
Walter Leonard | Stayed single 18 years before I got married the second time. My wife died. My wife had a heart attack, the first wife did. She died in 1966. Then I met this woman who I'm with now. I made it in '86. I stayed single 20 years before I got married the second time. I would've got married before then, but I was playing ball. Didn't want to take my wife with me. I would be single. Wouldn't take my wife with me. That's my picture over there. | 22:27 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Let me see. | 23:08 |
Walter Leonard | Over there. Over on that end. | 23:08 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay, uh-huh. | 23:08 |
Walter Leonard | That's Roy Campanella right there next to the man. | 23:08 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That's right. | 23:08 |
Walter Leonard | That's Roy Campanella. Roy Campanella, look there on the right. | 23:28 |
Rhonda Mawhood | On the right here? | 23:37 |
Walter Leonard | No, no. Left. | 23:37 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Left? Uh-huh. | 23:39 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. That's Roy Campanella right there. He died a few days ago. | 23:40 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Yes, I remember. | 23:45 |
Walter Leonard | And that's Jackie Robinson at the bottom there. | 23:46 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Down here? | 23:47 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, down there on the end. Right on the end. Point to him. | 23:51 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. Here? | 23:51 |
Walter Leonard | No, down at the end. On this end. | 23:52 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I'm sorry. | 23:52 |
Walter Leonard | That's right, Jackie Robinson. | 23:52 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay, okay. So women wouldn't take your word that you were single? | 24:05 |
Walter Leonard | No, they wouldn't take my word. I wouldn't behave myself. | 24:08 |
Rhonda Mawhood | When you were playing baseball, where did you meet women? | 24:15 |
Walter Leonard | I met women in every town. Every time that we played, I met women. | 24:19 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Where in the town did you meet them? | 24:23 |
Walter Leonard | Oh. Well, all I played was around Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, all in Pittsburgh, all around there. In South America, there's a picture right there of me in South America. I have a picture over there. That picture over there was me in South America. | 24:26 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I see. Caracas, Venezuela. | 24:37 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, Caracas. I played baseball in Caracas, Puerto Rico, Cuba, and Mexico. All those four places I played ball during the winter. When I'd come home during the summer, I'd stay here about a week or so, and I would get ready and go to Cuba and Puerto Rico, South America, like that, see. That picture right there was made in South America. | 24:39 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I see. You played on the American All Stars team? | 25:10 |
Walter Leonard | Yes. The All Star team down there, all of us are Americans. We had a team down there. | 25:18 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. | 25:22 |
Walter Leonard | This fellow here, he was the best baseball player. He could run fast. Cool Papa Bell is his name. | 25:28 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. I don't know him. | 25:40 |
Walter Leonard | He was a fast runner, base runner. | 25:41 |
Rhonda Mawhood | You started playing baseball, you said, in 1923. | 25:49 |
Walter Leonard | '23, yeah. | 25:53 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Before that when you were a little boy, did you play baseball for fun? Where did you learn how to play baseball? | 25:56 |
Walter Leonard | Here in Rocky Mount. Played baseball in Colored team here, right up there. That'd be where I learned how to play baseball. | 26:01 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Who taught you to play baseball? | 26:05 |
Walter Leonard | I don't know. See, every town in North Carolina had a Colored team in it. Colored team played by themselves. White team played by themselves. When you started playing baseball at 11 or 12 years old, whatever age you started, well, then some other kid had to teach you on the team. The fellow next to me was the manager of the team. His name was Raymond Stith. | 26:12 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Raymond Stith. | 26:36 |
Walter Leonard | S-T-I-T-H is his name. | 26:36 |
Rhonda Mawhood | S-T-I-T-H. Stith, okay. Did you know any of these men? | 26:50 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. I knew all of them. | 26:51 |
Rhonda Mawhood | But when you were growing up before you started playing baseball, did you know these men? | 26:52 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. I knew them all before then because most of them were older than I was. I was about the youngest one on the team. | 26:56 |
Rhonda Mawhood | When you decided you wanted to be a baseball player, how did you try out for the team? | 27:05 |
Walter Leonard | You try out in the high school team. High school, you started playing baseball when you were seven, eight and nine years old, and you played right on up until you got that age there. | 27:15 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Which is 17 or so? | 27:28 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. | 27:28 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did the teams, like the Rocky Mount Railroaders, send men to the high schools to watch the games, like scouts? | 27:31 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. They sending out this team. The men they sent out to look at you play. | 27:51 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Look at you play. | 27:51 |
Walter Leonard | When you finished school, you got on that team. That team, that was a paid team. You got three dollars a game for playing up there. | 27:51 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Three dollars a game? | 27:56 |
Walter Leonard | About three dollars a game when you played by that age. | 27:56 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. You traveled so much playing baseball. What was that like? When you were traveling through the South, I mean, the United States, can you tell me a little bit about what it was like to travel, to be on the road? | 28:12 |
Walter Leonard | Let me see. I thought I had it, but we had traveled in a baseball bus and had the name on the side of the bus. You traveled in the night and played in the day. All the games were day game at that time. We played in the daytime, and you traveled at night. I thought I had a team picture here. Let me see. | 28:27 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Thank you, sir. | 28:58 |
Walter Leonard | I don't know if you even hold that or not. | 28:58 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Yes, sir. It's fine. Here, I'll move over here and sit beside you if that's okay, so we can look at the pictures. Okay. Here we are. There you are, the Grays. | 29:37 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. | 29:52 |
Rhonda Mawhood | You played for the Grays. What town did they play out of? | 29:52 |
Walter Leonard | Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. | 29:55 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Pittsburgh. | 29:55 |
Walter Leonard | Then here is the third baseman. He is outfielder. Here right up in there, that's Cool Papa Bell. | 29:55 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. | 29:55 |
Walter Leonard | The White fellow, he played with Bucky Ross. | 29:55 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Chuck Connor. | 30:15 |
Walter Leonard | Chuck Connor, yeah. You might've heard of him. | 30:17 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Not of him, I'm sorry. I know some stuff about baseball, but not lots and lots. | 30:23 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. That's the team Homestead Grays, who I played with. | 30:27 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. | 30:27 |
Walter Leonard | That's me hitting the baseball. | 30:39 |
Rhonda Mawhood | All right. | 30:41 |
Walter Leonard | Number 32. | 30:42 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Number 32. | 30:42 |
Walter Leonard | Behind that door, it's shaded. There's my picture right there. | 30:47 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. Lots of team pictures. I can move. There's your number behind the door here, sir? | 31:02 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, yeah. | 31:12 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Here we go. There you are in your uniform. | 31:12 |
Walter Leonard | Read at the bottom there. That's when I was made— | 31:12 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Hall of Fame 1972. | 31:12 |
Walter Leonard | That's right. | 31:12 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Wonderful. That's very nice. You kept it. | 31:26 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. | 31:27 |
Rhonda Mawhood | You kept everything. | 31:27 |
Walter Leonard | I was a real estate broker after I quit playing ball. Instead of hanging around town here and stopped being a truant officer, I was a real estate— | 31:32 |
Rhonda Mawhood | You were made a member of the Hall of Fame after you were a truant officer? | 31:52 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, yeah. | 31:55 |
Rhonda Mawhood | During the time you were a truant officer. Okay. | 31:55 |
Walter Leonard | You've got a portrait of me in Little Raleigh. | 31:56 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Oh my goodness. Where is this? | 31:56 |
Walter Leonard | Over there in Little Raleigh. | 31:56 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Little Raleigh. | 31:56 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. | 31:56 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Oh, wow. Did you ever know Jim Thorpe? | 32:15 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. I knew Jim Thorpe. He used to play ball here. | 32:17 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That's why I ask. What was he like? | 32:24 |
Walter Leonard | Well, he was a good ball player, outfielder. Played in the outfield. He was a good player because he hit the ball. | 32:26 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What about Jackie Robinson, what was he like? | 32:36 |
Walter Leonard | Well, he was a showstopper. He was a good ball player too. I played with him. There's Jackie Robinson's picture right there. It's right there. | 32:39 |
Rhonda Mawhood | There he is. | 32:46 |
Walter Leonard | That's my picture over there on the top. That's my picture again on the door, on the outside of the door. | 32:51 |
Rhonda Mawhood | All of these famous men playing baseball together, did they ever— | 33:01 |
Walter Leonard | All the famous men. Everybody's picture right over there. Had number 32, that's my number. That's my number on my picture right there, Buck Leonard. | 33:11 |
Rhonda Mawhood | A statue of you. | 33:19 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, a statue over there. | 33:19 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And your picture. | 33:19 |
Walter Leonard | Another picture over there. | 33:19 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Well, these men, were they ever jealous of each other? | 33:27 |
Walter Leonard | No. | 33:30 |
Rhonda Mawhood | No? | 33:31 |
Walter Leonard | No. No. You played your own. You played what position you were assigned unless you let that go. Nobody played against and tried to outplay each other. You played your position. That's right. | 33:34 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did players try to help each other? | 33:50 |
Walter Leonard | Well, they would help as far as they could help you. They would tell you anything. If they knew you weren't fielding the ball right, they would tell you about it. Then you had a manager on the team, he would tell you how to field the ball. | 33:53 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Is that your bat? Okay. Louisville Slugger. | 34:04 |
Walter Leonard | Everybody got it. | 34:04 |
Rhonda Mawhood | 125, okay. | 34:04 |
Walter Leonard | Over there, we all got the Hall of Fame's names on it. | 34:27 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Oh my, all these names. Thank you so much. Buck Leonard, Joe DiMaggio. Oh my. So you were inducted in 1986 to the Hall of Fame? | 34:42 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. And 1972. | 35:03 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Right, okay. | 35:07 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, in 1972 I was in— | 35:09 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I know that the teams were separate until—they were separate for a long time, but did you know any White baseball players who were playing? | 35:20 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, I knew them. Yeah, yeah. | 35:28 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did anybody ever talk about the fact that the teams were separate? | 35:35 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. We talked about it quite a while. I started in 1933, and they talked about it until Jackie Robinson went up in 1948, when Jackie Robinson went to the Major League team. They talked about it. The teams then were separated. All the Colored teams played Colored teams. Colored teams played Colored teams. White teams played White teams until 1948. | 35:40 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What did you think of the fact that the teams were separate? | 36:29 |
Walter Leonard | Well, one time they came to us and asked us, would we like to play White league ball? We told them, "Yeah." We said, "We think we could play White baseball." White baseball, we called it. They say, "We trying." Said, "Do you fellows think you could make the White leagues?" Well, we didn't know what we was trying to do, but we was playing the best we could. They said, "What are you doing now?" We said, "We are playing the best we can now and the kind of baseball we playing." Saying, "With Colored teams." That's where they used us to talk to them. Said, "Well, we thought we would take you fellows into Major League Baseball." Said, "Well, we're trying. We would be trying to make the Major League teams." Said, "Well, all them Hall of Fame balls." | 36:33 |
Walter Leonard | Said, "Well, we're trying to. We was thinking we could play." For instance, when they took Jackie Robinson in the Major Leagues, he played baseball with Campanella, Donald Newcombe, all of those fellows, when they put them in the Major Leagues, they played Major League baseball. | 37:36 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Among yourselves, did the players talk with each other about that? | 38:00 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. They talked about that. They talked about it. When we got with White players, they said, "Well, if we would take you into the Major League, will you fellows play in the Major League?" Yeah. "So fellows, how would you fellows behave yourself?" We said, "Well, we'd behave ourselves just like the rest of the White players do." Said, "Well, we'll try it and we'll see what you do." In 1948, they tried it, took Jackie Robinson into the Major Leagues. He done all right. A year later, they added Campanella, Donald Newcombe. They took those fellows into the Major League. You know how long that's going to go. They took them in '48 and '50. They made the Major League and we were trying to make the Major Leagues too. | 38:03 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did you get paid the same amount of money as White ball players? | 39:09 |
Walter Leonard | No. | 39:14 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I don't mean now. I know they make a lot more now. | 39:14 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. Listen, when I started playing baseball, I was making $85 a month, $85 a month. Understand that now. They said, "Now what if we take you fellows into the Major Leagues and you're getting $4-500 a month?" Said, "Well, we'll be playing that kind of ball. If we get $400 or $500 a month, we'll be playing $400 or $500 a month class of baseball." Said, "Well, we'll be trying hard to make the team and we'll try to make the team." Said, "Well, how would you fellows behave on the team?" Said, "How do the White boys behave?" Said, "Well, we'll be used to White boys. We'll be acting like the White boys." | 39:16 |
Walter Leonard | The first time I got on a White team, I was playing ball out there and messing around there and played for four or five dollars a game, something like that. We took on a Major League team from Virginia. There was three of us, myself, a boy named Charlie Peet, and a boy named Butch Robinson. Charlie Peet was an outfielder. I was first baseman, and Butch Robinson was a pitcher. We were riding close to the back of the bus. We were riding in three seats in the back of the bus back then. We sit back there all the time. When the White boys get in the bus, they get in the front part of the bus. I thought I had a picture of the bus then. I thought I had a picture of all of us in there. | 40:00 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I'll take a look. So they got into the front of the bus? | 41:01 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. We got in the back of the bus. That's a picture when I was inducted into the Baseball Hall. That's the commissioner there. | 41:05 |
Rhonda Mawhood | So they got into the front of the bus? | 41:15 |
Walter Leonard | We got in the back of the bus. We sat over in the back. That's how you had it. That's our seats. When we got in the bus, they would be kind of quiet in the bus when we got in. We got in the bus, we got in the back of the bus and sit down. We rode in the back of the bus. When we got out to eat when we stop at a White place, White and Colored, they was eating separately. When we stopped at a place on the highway for the White boys, the Colored boys couldn't eat there, see. So they'd bring us out a little sandwich. That's what we'd just eat. Then we would get on the road, riding. We would sit in the back of the bus and the White boys would bring food out to us. | 41:16 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Where did you stay, Mr. Leonard? | 42:10 |
Walter Leonard | We stayed in Colored hotels. | 42:12 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And the White players? | 42:16 |
Walter Leonard | All the White players stayed in the White hotels, stayed downtown in the White hotels. That's what we did. | 42:16 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. Did the White and Black players on the team talk about this situation? | 42:30 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. They talked about it. | 42:34 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What did the White players think? | 42:36 |
Walter Leonard | It was all around then. Colored and White had to separate. White didn't sit together on the bus. | 42:44 |
Rhonda Mawhood | But you played together. | 42:55 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, played together, but no bus together. Didn't ride together. In the Colored section of the town and we'd get a room. And they'd get in the White section and go downtown and get a room. This woman here, that's my wife. | 42:56 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Your wife. | 43:15 |
Walter Leonard | Yes. The Hall of Fame, that's my picture there. | 43:29 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Sure enough. | 43:29 |
Walter Leonard | That was '92 in there. That's the same picture up there. | 43:34 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Oh, right. There it is. | 43:55 |
Speaker 1 | Hello. Make another one? | 43:55 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Yes. Thank you. Well, Mr. Leonard, I'm wondering about the ballparks where you played. Was there one ballpark you liked in particular? | 43:55 |
Walter Leonard | No. At that time they had Colored ballpark and White ballparks. That's where you played then. Colored people went to the Colored ballpark where the Colored ball was played, and the White people went to where the White boys played. | 44:02 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did White people ever go to watch the Black players? | 44:16 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. Over there, Colored players over there and the White players—Colored players played over here, White players over there. If Colored players go to a White ballpark, they had a place for the Colored to sit. | 44:20 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Was there one ballpark that you liked to play in more than another? | 44:39 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. I played in all the ballparks that were around. | 44:42 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did you have a favorite? | 44:50 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. | 44:51 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Which one was that? | 44:53 |
Walter Leonard | Washington, D.C. | 44:54 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Why did you like that one? | 44:56 |
Walter Leonard | I don't know. I could hit home runs better. | 44:58 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That's a good reason to like a ballpark. | 45:05 |
Walter Leonard | That's right. | 45:07 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What were ballparks like then? | 45:12 |
Walter Leonard | Just like they are now. | 45:15 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Just like they are now? | 45:16 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. Only thing about it is they didn't have lights then. They have lights in them now. | 45:16 |
Rhonda Mawhood | So they played their games in the daytime? | 45:25 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. But later on, they started playing them at night, later at night. | 45:30 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What did you think of that when they started playing baseball at night? Did you have any thoughts about it? | 45:34 |
Walter Leonard | It was better. | 45:37 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Better? | 45:38 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, cooler. Cooler at night than it was in the day. | 45:39 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. How would you say the situation of Black men in professional sports today compares to what their position was when you were playing? | 45:52 |
Walter Leonard | Well, the White people stayed in the White ballparks and they got better food than we got. We ate in the Colored places and get whatever food the Colored people would fix for you. White boys ate in White restaurants and they ate better food than we did. | 46:06 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What about today? | 46:48 |
Walter Leonard | Today is the same. | 46:49 |
Rhonda Mawhood | —baseball was integrated. This may sound like a silly question, but do you think that the integration was a good thing? | 0:01 |
Walter Leonard | Well, I think it was. The integration was good. The same players get the same salary now to the ballpark. You get paid according to how you can play now. Where at that time, Colored ball players was getting Colored salary, White ball players getting White salaries, and they wouldn't be the same. But now, I started playing ball at $85 a month. It was a whole lot better business playing with the same ball parks I played with, and they get twice as much money at that time as I was getting. Three times as much money as I was getting. | 0:11 |
Rhonda Mawhood | When you were making $85 a week as a player— | 1:08 |
Walter Leonard | A month. | 1:11 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Excuse me. A month, yes, a month. That's important. Was that more than you were making at the hosiery mill? | 1:12 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. Well, I was making about, well, about twice as much as I was making at the hosiery mill. | 1:17 |
Rhonda Mawhood | How did your mother feel about it when you started playing baseball? | 1:27 |
Walter Leonard | Well, she said that she felt like I could do something else and bring more money home, to be able to help her take care of the children, than I could make playing ball. But I played ball. I was working at the railroad shop. I was going working at 7:00 in the morning and getting off at 3:30 in the evening. I started playing ball at 4:00 in the evening and playing till it got dark. | 1:30 |
Rhonda Mawhood | But your mother thought that you could do something else to make more money? | 2:02 |
Walter Leonard | Well, she thought I could do something else, but I didn't think so. I didn't think so. I wasn't sure. | 2:06 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Hang on. There we go. | 2:27 |
Walter Leonard | I had pictures of the ballpark, the place we used to go. I'm just going to try to find it. The place where we used to go. We'd go around there. | 2:30 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did your family used to go watch you play baseball? | 2:39 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, they used to come out and watch me play. Sisters, everybody. Such hollering you never heard in your life. | 2:41 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I'm sorry? | 2:42 |
Walter Leonard | Such hollering you never heard in your life, when I hit a home run. | 2:47 |
Rhonda Mawhood | They cheered for you? | 2:55 |
Walter Leonard | Yes, sir. We used to meet over there. These two ballplayers, Campanella. He died the other day. Campanella died the other day. This is Larry Doby. He's still living. He's hilarious. Here's my picture right there, when I was playing. Those players used to be on the team here in Rocky Mount. | 3:01 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. John Dickens and Joe? | 3:30 |
Walter Leonard | Sumrell. | 3:31 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. S-U-M-R-E-L-L. | 3:34 |
Walter Leonard | Sumrell. Yeah. | 3:38 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. | 3:38 |
Walter Leonard | There's a theme here. See there? It's his ability over here. Everyone on the Colored team there. These two fellows were on the Colored team. | 3:44 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Yeah, I mean, this is the team. This is the Rocky Mount Leagues from 1967, and there are only one, two, three, four Black young men on the team. | 3:55 |
Walter Leonard | Yes, that's right. That's right. That was the team. | 4:05 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Why do you think that is? | 4:08 |
Walter Leonard | Well, they were taking Colored at that time. They take Colored people. As a team, we carried it to South America. | 4:14 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. What was that like playing in South America? | 4:18 |
Walter Leonard | Well, we played in stadiums, all the same. They didn't ask where we were, the Hall of Fame, that was in, I don't know what year it was, or the way I think it was. The Hall of Fame, it's all over that side. | 4:23 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay, I think it's— | 4:49 |
Walter Leonard | Over there. | 4:49 |
Rhonda Mawhood | —1992. | 4:49 |
Walter Leonard | Yes, right. | 4:49 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Yes, it's the 53rd Anniversary— | 4:49 |
Walter Leonard | Yes, it's 1992. | 4:57 |
Rhonda Mawhood | —of The Baseball Hall of Fame. | 4:57 |
Walter Leonard | Look over there, on the other side. | 4:57 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm, there's that there. | 4:57 |
Walter Leonard | In 1961. In '61, right there, over on the other side. Right there, the diamond. | 4:59 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Which was, yeah. There's '76 here. | 5:04 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, over there. Over there, over that side. | 5:09 |
Rhonda Mawhood | '81 also. | 5:09 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. | 5:09 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 5:09 |
Walter Leonard | Over there, in that old ring. Yeah, that's right. | 5:09 |
Rhonda Mawhood | This is 1990. This one. | 5:09 |
Walter Leonard | '90, that's right. | 5:15 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 5:25 |
Walter Leonard | I think this is 1990 here. I'm going to see. That's the team when I first went to Havana, Cuba. | 5:25 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Oh my, 1939. | 5:37 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. Mm-hmm. | 5:38 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I'll have to look at the picture. It's wonderful. Did you meet other Americans when you were in Cuba? | 5:38 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. I went there, yeah. | 5:46 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Uh-huh. | 6:05 |
Walter Leonard | That's right. Yeah. | 6:05 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Oh my God. Okay. | 6:05 |
Walter Leonard | What year is that? | 6:06 |
Rhonda Mawhood | This is '38. | 6:06 |
Walter Leonard | All right. | 6:06 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And there were some women in the picture. | 6:06 |
Walter Leonard | There's my picture, right there. | 6:06 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Uh-huh. | 6:06 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. | 6:06 |
Rhonda Mawhood | So did the baseball players bring their wives to Cuba? | 6:07 |
Walter Leonard | No. We let them come down there once. We're going to stay there four or five days and then come back. | 6:10 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay, okay. Mm-hmm. How did South American people treat you? | 6:17 |
Walter Leonard | Just like any other. It's like we were Americans. We were a nation down there. | 6:24 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 6:39 |
Walter Leonard | We're going this way. They treat you just like you're a Native, and Native, not Colored. | 6:39 |
Rhonda Mawhood | A Native. | 6:48 |
Walter Leonard | A Native, or Colored. | 6:55 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. It sounds like they were pretty nice. | 6:56 |
Walter Leonard | They were all right. They were pretty nice. | 7:03 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay, mm-hmm. | 7:03 |
Walter Leonard | There's my picture right there. | 7:03 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm, there you are. | 7:11 |
Walter Leonard | Monte Irvin right there. If it were here, he's in the Hall of Fame now. | 7:11 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Who is that, sir? | 7:11 |
Walter Leonard | Danridge. | 7:11 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Dan Richards? | 7:17 |
Walter Leonard | Danridge. | 7:17 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Oh, Danridge, I'm sorry. Yes, oh, of course. Uh-huh. | 7:18 |
Walter Leonard | Mm-hmm. He's in the Hall of Fame, isn't he? Monte Irvin. | 7:20 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 7:20 |
Walter Leonard | There's my wife, my first wife. | 7:30 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Oh, there she is, and are these wives of other baseball players? | 7:32 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, that's right. | 7:37 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Uh-huh. | 7:39 |
Walter Leonard | There's my family, right there. | 7:39 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Oh, my. Beautiful picture. | 7:39 |
Walter Leonard | There's my picture right there. | 7:39 |
Rhonda Mawhood | The little boy. He looks so serious. He looks so serious. | 7:49 |
Walter Leonard | They're my mother and my father. | 7:49 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm, and six children. | 7:53 |
Walter Leonard | My two sisters. They're older than I was. They're older than I was. | 7:54 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Uh-huh. They look like they're quite a bit older. | 7:59 |
Walter Leonard | Mm-hmm. | 8:02 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. What were your brothers and sisters names, Mr. Leonard? | 8:03 |
Walter Leonard | Her name is Fanny, her name is Willie. | 8:07 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Willie? | 8:10 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. | 8:10 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Uh-huh. | 8:10 |
Walter Leonard | It was Willie. It's Fanny. | 8:11 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Uh-huh. | 8:13 |
Walter Leonard | This is the oldest one. That's the next to the eldest one. That's one, I'm next to her. | 8:13 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 8:20 |
Walter Leonard | This is Charlie. | 8:21 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 8:23 |
Walter Leonard | Oh, and I didn't tell you. Yeah, this is Charlie, and this is Herman. | 8:26 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Herman, mm-hmm. | 8:29 |
Walter Leonard | This is my youngest sister. Her name is Lena. | 8:30 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Lena, like Lena Horne? | 8:43 |
Walter Leonard | Even Willie and my father. | 8:43 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What are your parents' names, sir? | 8:43 |
Walter Leonard | Her name is Emma, E-M-M-A. His name is Johnie, J-O-H-N-I-E. | 8:45 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 8:45 |
Walter Leonard | This is my house where I was born. | 8:46 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Where was your house? On what street? | 8:46 |
Walter Leonard | Oh, it was Raleigh Road. | 8:59 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Raleigh Road. Okay, Raleigh Road. Uh-huh, and when did you buy this house, sir, on Atlantic Avenue? | 9:00 |
Walter Leonard | I bought this house in 1937. '37. It's been my house round about, oh, so many years. | 9:05 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 9:12 |
Walter Leonard | This is my wife. She was an undertaker before I married her. | 9:16 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Was she really? | 9:20 |
Walter Leonard | Yes. She was an undertaker. | 9:21 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 9:24 |
Walter Leonard | All of us were married. All these are married ball players, married to ball players. She married a catcher, she made the show stop, she married a pitcher, and she married a pitcher. | 9:26 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did your wife keep working after you were married? | 9:38 |
Walter Leonard | She was told, that's how it worked. | 9:41 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That's cool. | 9:41 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, she told them, and left that work, until I finally got away. | 9:42 |
Rhonda Mawhood | When you were in town, did she go and watch you play? | 9:48 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. | 9:49 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 9:50 |
Walter Leonard | She was with New York, all around her, seeing me play, with Cuba, and a lot of us people. She went to Cuba. This one here went to Cuba. | 9:51 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 9:59 |
Walter Leonard | I've been married to this one for about six years. Six years. | 10:00 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. Where did you meet your wife, Mr. Leonard? Your first wife? | 10:04 |
Walter Leonard | My first wife. Yeah. No, I was there. I come out here. I came back home in the winter, after the season was over, up there. I came home in the winter. I would hang around the funeral home. She would run the funeral home. | 10:09 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What were you doing hanging around the funeral home? | 10:21 |
Walter Leonard | I was half taking care of the dead. I was going out and getting dead people when they die at night. Called at the funeral home. You see these, the way they come in, and even out in the country and so forth. So you'd go out there and roam around until you find them. That was it. That was a tough job. That was a tough job, a business. She was the undertaker, and I was helping them. I was seeing a dog's life then. | 10:23 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 11:00 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, it was tough then. | 11:02 |
Rhonda Mawhood | It was a dog's life working at the funeral parlor or just in general? | 11:04 |
Walter Leonard | In general. I'd call her all the time, and I'd come out there. So and so's out in the country. I had to come out. Somebody said it was so and so, so and so's died about a half hour ago. Come out and get him. He's dead. Come out and get so and so. More of that, the same thing. Somebody say, "He's dead." They call you, can you get somebody to go and get that person who's dead. Go out, everybody, even in the middle of the night. You go out and get somebody and you bring them back to the funeral home. | 11:09 |
Walter Leonard | Had to embalm them and more. I had to embalm. I had all the fluid up in a container, up in the house. You hold the fluid up like that and you had a tube. I had a tube running out, at the bottom of the house. At the bottom of the container, and that's where the fluid was. The fluid was running from there, as we were embalming them. We're putting all the fluid in them. We took all the blood out of him and put fluid in. We put fluid in his blood, in his blood levels themselves. | 11:40 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. So you learned all this by working in the funeral parlor? | 12:17 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, in the funeral home. | 12:17 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Uh-huh. So was your first wife from Rocky Mount also? | 12:21 |
Walter Leonard | No, she was from the East, from a little city in North Carolina. | 12:25 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. What was her name, sir? | 12:33 |
Walter Leonard | Sarah. | 12:34 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Sarah. | 12:34 |
Walter Leonard | Do you want to know this, what her name here? | 12:36 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Yes, sir. Yes, please. | 12:38 |
Walter Leonard | Gene. | 12:41 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Gene. | 12:42 |
Walter Leonard | Lu Gene. L-U G-E-N-E. | 12:43 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. What was your first wife's name before you married her? I know it was a long time ago. | 12:51 |
Walter Leonard | Oh yeah, well, let me see. Sarah Saw. See, that's a madness, that Sarah Saw, that was her name then. That's a name. She's as mad as Sarah Saw, so her name was Sarah Wroten. That was the name. W-R-O-T-E-N. | 13:00 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay, thank you. The lady you're married to now, is she from Rocky Mount? | 13:22 |
Walter Leonard | No, she's from out in the country. | 13:28 |
Rhonda Mawhood | From out in the country? Edgecombe County? | 13:28 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, Edgecombe County. About 12, 15 miles from here. | 13:28 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. That's where we're staying out there. | 13:39 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. | 13:41 |
Rhonda Mawhood | With the Franklin Center. What was Mrs Leonard's name before she married you? | 13:45 |
Walter Leonard | I'm not seeing, what the hell is her name? | 13:49 |
Rhonda Mawhood | If you can't think of it, it doesn't matter. | 13:55 |
Walter Leonard | It's half, I gave it when they were in there. | 13:55 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That's fine, that's fine. How long did you court Sarah, the first Mrs Leonard, before you married? | 14:03 |
Walter Leonard | I married her in 1937, and she died in '66. About 30 years. She was still staying in this house when I married her. She was where this woman here was staying in this house when I married her. She stayed here until about 28 years or 30 years, and we stayed together. She would come up to play ball. I'd come up somehow, she'd see me play ball. She'd come to Cuba, see me play ball, Puerto Rico here, we're like, we go around. But she taught schools and that. She taught school. She was coming up in school clothes. In summer, she would come to New York, where I live, and see me play. | 14:10 |
Rhonda Mawhood | When you were courting, did she go and see you play also? | 14:56 |
Walter Leonard | Yes, she did when I was courting too. | 14:59 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 14:59 |
Walter Leonard | Well, see, the school was out. | 15:03 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. Did you court very long before you got married? | 15:06 |
Walter Leonard | I courted her about two years. About two years. Her husband died. He had TB and he died. | 15:09 |
Rhonda Mawhood | She believed you, that you were single? | 15:24 |
Walter Leonard | No, she knew I was single. She knew it. | 15:26 |
Rhonda Mawhood | She believed you, okay. You were single. | 15:30 |
Walter Leonard | Because I was staying near the border town over there. | 15:31 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. When you were playing baseball and you were on the road, you said that sometimes women wouldn't believe you were single. But did women ever try to get to know baseball players? Were there women who liked baseball players? | 15:38 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, they used to come around, follow us around, in the car, come to Richmond often and something like that, see us play. The boys would want to stay with them. "No, you can't stay with them. You can stay on the ball team, please, sir." | 15:53 |
Walter Leonard | This one's with my whole family, right there. Six children. There's my father there. He's a good, down ball player. | 16:21 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Double Dutch Radcliffe. | 16:36 |
Walter Leonard | Captain never asked, so Dad heads in there before he's asleep. He is the only one who went down to Danders. Here's all the famous, as far as everybody, about 1940 to about 1988, you know what I'm saying? | 16:38 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. It looks like it's probably around then. | 17:08 |
Walter Leonard | Yes, well it was more local then. | 17:09 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 17:14 |
Walter Leonard | Meanwhile, he's Ian Slotter. That's his name. | 17:14 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Slotter? | 17:18 |
Walter Leonard | Yes, Slotter. | 17:19 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. I noticed that you have pictures up of Joe Louis also. | 17:20 |
Walter Leonard | Yes. I once saw him. I went to see him fight in New York. | 17:28 |
Rhonda Mawhood | When was that? | 17:33 |
Walter Leonard | In 1944. Billy Conn, that night. He knocked Conn out that night. I forget what year that was. Yeah. | 17:34 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That's fine. It's good. Uh-huh. How did you feel that night, when he beat Billy Conn? | 17:46 |
Walter Leonard | Well, I felt this like other people felt. You rejoice when he fell. He was hoping he was going to feel, that night, he knocked Conn out. His picture I've had since I've been, when I was in high school. When I finished school, right there. This is his picture right there. I was about 13 when that was made. | 17:55 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm, a nice picture. | 18:25 |
Walter Leonard | All them high school girls. | 18:26 |
Rhonda Mawhood | It's a nice picture. | 18:27 |
Walter Leonard | All these boys, high school boys. He was a pitcher on the baseball team. He caught on the team, and then, well there were only two. There was myself and this one. See? This one here, we sell stuff onto him. | 18:29 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. Uh-huh. So y'all played together? | 19:03 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. | 19:04 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. What other things did you do for fun, when you were growing up, Mr. Leonard? | 19:05 |
Walter Leonard | Well, I worked in the hosiery mill. The mill made stockings. I made stockings, see? I made long stockings till 7:00 p.m. My sisters worked there too. My sister worked there too. I worked at a hosiery mill for a while. About a year, about two years, and I shined shoes at the railroad station. I shined shoes at the railroad station. Then I went to working at the railways. I was shining shoes. I worked at the railroad job until I was 25, 23. 23 years of age. Then I got down and started playing baseball again. | 19:10 |
Rhonda Mawhood | When you weren't working, Mr. Leonard, when you had free time, what did you do for fun when you were growing up? | 19:54 |
Walter Leonard | Just hang around town. I just would look around town. Hang around. | 20:00 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 20:08 |
Walter Leonard | This would not be too well with me. I was loafing around there. I was playing ball. | 20:10 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Uh-huh. Loafing around— | 20:15 |
Walter Leonard | And playing ball. Yeah. | 20:17 |
Rhonda Mawhood | —and playing ball. Okay. Uh-huh. Where did you hang around? Did you hang around the store? Did you hang around the barbershop? | 20:18 |
Walter Leonard | I hung around the barbershop. The barbershop most of the time. | 20:28 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What did you do there? | 20:35 |
Walter Leonard | I wasn't doing anything then. Just hanging around. | 20:37 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Hanging around? | 20:39 |
Walter Leonard | The fuel station, funeral home also. Having the boys around. Having Ian and Bob around. A few of the players, and the funeral pile. | 20:39 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Funeral pile, uh-huh. What kinds of things do you remember men doing in the barbershop? | 21:00 |
Walter Leonard | We used to play checkers. You play checkers is what we have. | 21:12 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 21:19 |
Walter Leonard | I was there from 1930. I got cut off in the railroad shop in 1962. '63? '62. And I just hung around, picking up here and there and everywhere. The thing that I give the team, get to do. | 21:25 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 21:48 |
Walter Leonard | This and playing ball. I was always playing ball. | 21:49 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. When you were playing ball, Mr. Leonard, did anyone, I don't mean necessarily you, but did anyone ever bet on the games? | 21:51 |
Walter Leonard | Well, if they did, we didn't know anything. We didn't know it. | 22:04 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm, okay. Do you remember the year that the Chicago, I think it's Chicago White Sox, supposedly, there was betting on that team? They called it, it was a scandal. | 22:06 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, I remember that. | 22:27 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Do you remember that? | 22:27 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. | 22:27 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. What did you think of that when it happened? | 22:29 |
Walter Leonard | Well, I think they did right, but it was suspicious. So it's betting really, and putting them for that, like a baseball park, but for betting. And Pete Rose, it put him off the team on account of betting. But I think they cleaned out the game. | 22:30 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 22:58 |
Walter Leonard | Well, I think, all of yous have all seen all you're going to need to see in this game. | 22:58 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Well, thank you very much, Mr. Leonard. I appreciate it. | 23:03 |
Walter Leonard | That's my mother. | 23:05 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Oh. Let's see. Oh. She looks serious. | 23:18 |
Walter Leonard | With six children, she had to look serious. She had to look serious, when you've got six children to take care of. | 23:22 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I guess that's so. Okay. And that. Mm-hmm. Okay. And this. Would you like me to put it back, sir? | 24:08 |
Walter Leonard | That would be amazing. | 24:08 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. Well, is there anything I didn't ask you about that you think that I should, Mr. Leonard? | 24:15 |
Walter Leonard | Let me see. How long was that? How much of it was, what am I doing now? Is that what you want to know? | 24:20 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What are you doing? I'd love to know. What are you doing now? | 24:28 |
Walter Leonard | That's what I want to know, is what I'm doing now. Well, I'm going to tell you, I'm just sitting around the house. I'm 85 years old now. 85. | 24:36 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 25:01 |
Walter Leonard | I get $500 a month from the Hall of Fame. $500 a month, and I just sit around autographing baseball—they pay me $5 a piece for a ball. They pay me $10 a piece for— | 25:01 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I can take that off you. I can have it. It's fine. | 25:07 |
Walter Leonard | You can't really hear anything through it. | 25:10 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That's fine. Thank you. Mm-hmm. Oh, I see. Mm-hmm. Oh, that's a great picture of you. | 25:19 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. | 25:43 |
Rhonda Mawhood | That's a great picture. Oh, you're watching the ball come. You're just about to hit it. | 25:48 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. | 26:00 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Uh-huh. You're concentrating. | 26:01 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. | 26:03 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 26:03 |
Walter Leonard | It was my right hand. We'll send them a picture. I send them a picture for $5. You get $5 a piece for them. | 26:04 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. Okay, so that brings in some money too. | 26:16 |
Walter Leonard | Yes, ma'am. | 26:28 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay, uh-huh. Mr. Leonard, if you had to give advice to young people today, to people like me or younger, what would you tell them about life? | 26:30 |
Walter Leonard | I would say, try and make something or somewhat of yourself as a young guy. When you get old, you don't make it. You won't be able to make nothing. | 26:49 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 26:58 |
Walter Leonard | Make it, get it while you can because when you get older, you can't get much, and so forth. I just tell them like that. | 26:58 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. Okay. Thank you. | 27:02 |
Walter Leonard | Always try to figure out how you're going to make a living in your old age. That's all I can say. | 27:22 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 27:43 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. There's my picture right there. | 27:43 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay, that's great. There's an article about you. | 27:54 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. There's something about me, hey. Did you read that? | 27:56 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. Sports Collector's Digest. August 2nd, 1991. Called, Buck Leonard: The Black Lou Gehrig. Oh, my. That's by Rick Van Blair. B-L-A-I-R. Okay. Mm-hmm. So do you keep in touch with people you used to play baseball with? | 27:58 |
Walter Leonard | When I can though. Most of the fellas are dead now but some of them live in a—I'm going with this. | 28:47 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm. So Mr. Leonard, if I understand correctly, the umpires in the Negro League were not Black men? Oh, I'm sorry, that's something I should have on copy. | 29:32 |
Speaker 1 | Can you tell them what you know? | 29:52 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, when we were playing in Colored baseball, all the umpires were Colored. | 29:52 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. | 29:57 |
Walter Leonard | But when we were playing Colored baseball, all of the umpires were Colored. | 29:57 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. | 29:57 |
Walter Leonard | But now when we got, Negros got onto the White teams, well all the umpires were White and Colored. | 30:02 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. I was just wondering about that. Okay. About the umpires. | 30:03 |
Walter Leonard | You see, you see. Now you see some umpires, most of them are White, and a few of them are Colored. We just had the Evergreen, I think a few of them are Colored, but most of them are White. That being an umpire nowadays. | 30:03 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. What do you think of that, Mr. Leonard? | 30:03 |
Walter Leonard | I think it's all right. | 30:03 |
Speaker 1 | Yes, sir. | 30:03 |
Walter Leonard | Well, the after, end of the TRI in Dominica, we ran the team. We ran the group. | 30:03 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. | 30:03 |
Walter Leonard | Now, to see the folks out here today, and interviewing them, they're all around the White team, or the Negro team. I go to the coach, to the Hall of Fame, I go anyway and all of the players appear on the Coloreds cards. I had to ride on a wheelchair. | 30:03 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 30:03 |
Walter Leonard | I get around so slow. I sit down when I go there. I sit down in the chair when I'm there, at a table, when I'm wheeled in. I'm autographing. I had to autograph with my left hand. I had a stroke, with my right hand, I can't use this hand no more. I had to autograph things with my left hand then. I can't autograph with my right hand. | 31:36 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Is that a little slower for you? | 32:02 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, it's a little slower. | 32:04 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. | 32:04 |
Walter Leonard | Before, I used to write right-handed. I went to school with my right hand, I caught with my right hand, I finished school with my right hand, and I wrote with my right hand until about four years ago, when I had a stroke. | 32:06 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Excuse me. Mm-hmm. | 32:20 |
Walter Leonard | I had to write with my left hand. | 32:21 |
Rhonda Mawhood | So you had to learn that? | 32:21 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. | 32:21 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. Well, you're writing pretty well now, because I've seen, so that's great. You learned it. Okay. | 32:29 |
Walter Leonard | Oh, yeah. | 32:37 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Yes. May I give you a hand, sir? | 32:38 |
Walter Leonard | I can get up. | 32:38 |
Rhonda Mawhood | All right. A postcard, the Negro League Legends. Series Number One, Card 38. Walter "Buck" Leonard. The Homestead Grays. First Base. 1934 to 1950. And a portrait of you as well. Buck Leonard, born 9/8/07, active 1933 to '50. Position: First Base. Teams: Baltimore Stars, Brooklyn Royal Giants, Homestead Grays. | 33:15 |
Walter Leonard | I know. Do you want me to autograph this one? | 33:44 |
Rhonda Mawhood | This one here? | 33:54 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. | 33:55 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. | 33:57 |
Walter Leonard | I want to go over there and sit down. | 33:57 |
Rhonda Mawhood | All right. Where would you rather sit, sir? Over here? | 34:00 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah. | 34:12 |
Rhonda Mawhood | All righty. Here we go. | 34:12 |
Walter Leonard | Did you see my name on this thing. This band, right here? | 34:14 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Yes, sir. So many. There are all sorts of medals here. | 34:15 |
Walter Leonard | Here. | 34:15 |
Rhonda Mawhood | There we go. Uh-huh. Right beside Bob Lemon. Is this the kind of bat you would use, a Louisville Slugger, when you played? | 34:37 |
Walter Leonard | Yeah, that's right. | 34:47 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. Mm-hmm. It's a beautiful bat. | 34:51 |
Walter Leonard | Oh, the rest, keep coming. | 34:55 |
Rhonda Mawhood | There you go, sir. | 34:56 |
Walter Leonard | Just hold it at the top. | 35:06 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Yes, sir. | 35:07 |
Speaker 1 | Okay. Okay. | 35:07 |
Rhonda Mawhood | There you are. That's very nice. | 35:52 |
Walter Leonard | Mm-hmm. That's right. | 35:53 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I'll close this for you. | 36:04 |
Walter Leonard | Yes. | 36:04 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. You have all of these pens that you work with. I love lots of pens. | 36:04 |
Walter Leonard | You need these things, put them down, and you've got to use a new pen. Or somewhat easy. Oh, no. Sorry. All right, it's a new pen. | 36:05 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. | 36:05 |
Walter Leonard | Someone else wants an autograph. It's a new pen. We've got, I don't know how many pens. I've got all them pens up there. | 36:05 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I should have given you a pen. Thank you so much. | 36:06 |
Walter Leonard | You're welcome. | 36:10 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Thank you so much. It's an honor. Well? I love it. | 36:37 |
Item Info
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