Vivian Spence interview recording, 1993 June 21
Loading the media player...
Transcript
Transcripts may contain inaccuracies.
Vivian Cofield Spence | Here in Enfield, North Carolina. And small town, very small population. I went to school here, and it was all Black. It started as a three room school, and when I started bus service was not available at the time. I had an aunt who was teaching there, and I was one of the lucky ones who didn't have to walk to school. I could ride with her, which made it real good because before then I remember my parents were saying they had to catch a ride or walk any way they could get there. They didn't have the services that we had. And so I was there through about the 7th grade, and then we would go to the high school. High school started at 8th grade and would continue until graduation. And, of course, like I said, it was all Black. We didn't have any integration at the time when I left there, which was in the year of '55. | 0:01 |
Kara Miles | What school did you go to? What elementary school? | 1:34 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | At that time it was called Pleasant Hill Elementary School, which now they have a school called Pittman, which is about two miles down the road. But this was like—most of the schools then were named in the community for where a church was. We had a church called Pleasant Hill Church. They would have a school called Pleasant Hill School. And usually they were three room schools. And on another section they have maybe another one called Eden. Then they'd have a little three room school there. Another one, Harrison, they have a little three room school. They would all center. And when the teacher would teach, she would—usually, they have so many classes like for a second, third grade combined, and you would have to wait for the first. | 1:39 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | And you could almost excel though at your own level because if you were accelerated and if you were in 1st grade by listening to 3rd, it caused you to go on, which was really a good experience rather than just having one grade. It seemed like you had more one-to-one attention back there than now because the teacher could devote some time to you seemingly. You got to know everybody and know all the students very well. Now it's a little different. | 2:30 |
Kara Miles | About how many students were there in Pleasant Hill? | 3:04 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | In the school? Maybe about 75, very small. And then you'd have about 75 maybe to a 100 and some few over. You'd have them in three different rooms, three different teachers. And you had to go to the bathroom on the outside. Of course, you'd have to have a pass to go out and make sure nobody else was out there when you go. You had to go get water from the wells and had to bring your own lunch. There was nothing, no lunch. We did have water. We would get outside water to wash our hands since before lunch we have a period called recess, and at that time you'd just go on the outside for a little break in between the classes. | 3:05 |
Kara Miles | What did you used to do at recess? | 4:13 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Mainly play. | 4:17 |
Kara Miles | Play what? | 4:18 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Play ball or tag games, Ring Around the Rosie, hopscotch, jump rope, things like that. Unless it was raining. If it was raining, you'd stay inside and play indoor games. Something like Monopoly, checkers or something. | 4:20 |
Kara Miles | How many of those schools were there in the county? | 4:40 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Oh, my God. | 4:46 |
Kara Miles | A lot? | 4:50 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | I can't say. There were a lot of them in the county. Like I said, right in this area alone we had Eden, Harrison, [indistinct 00:05:07] Daniel's Chapel, Pleasant Hill. I don't know, I guess, right in this general area you're talking about seven, eight or nine. And this is just a small portion of the county, so I can't remember exactly how many they would've had, but lots of them. | 4:51 |
Kara Miles | Were they all about the same or were some nicer than others? | 5:37 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | I would say most of them were about the same. Most of them were about the same. I had the experience of going into two or three of them. Now, when we got to the high school, that was a little better I would say because most of these were just a boarded up building you might say, but it was always clean and nice. But the high school was a little—they had built onto that, I guess, because it was larger. And then when the building process, they would come up and they expanded. And then somewhere back in the '60s, I think it was the '60s, when they did some brick work. Some of the students that were in the mason department at the high school then they would use them to do brick work. So they had a brick portion of the school too. | 5:42 |
Kara Miles | Did all the students from all the little schools go to that one high school or were there more high schools? | 6:39 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Well, there were more high schools in the county, but that was only one for this section. They had one for this section and one in the Scotland Neck section. The Littleton section had one, something like that. And one would support all the feeding schools for the little ones. | 6:48 |
Kara Miles | And what was that school called? | 7:12 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | That was Eastman High School, and then they had a McIver up in the Littleton area. Then it had a Brawley over in the Scotland Neck area. | 7:14 |
Kara Miles | And what area is this one? | 7:25 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | This is in the—well, this is Pittman School area. Beaver Dam is what they call this little section. Faucett is the township. Actually, we could have been in either township, Enfield or Faucett, but we chose Faucett because of the voting. There was no store or anything there. It's just the five districts. And when you get ready for voting and how the lines get so long and you go into town area to vote, you know be in the line, you go over here, you can run over in it. So it's just a couple of miles around the corner. So we chose that, I guess, for that reason. | 7:27 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | But now the Faucett Township is mainly White. I don't know if we could have done that back then, way, way back. You know what I'm saying? But see, when I grew up, I grew up across the road. That's Enfield. Our house is half and half, Enfield right over here might be where you're sitting, and the other part is Faucett Township. You know how you have two dividing right on the line? So they told us tax wise we could go in either district. So that's why we chose to go over here. You know what I'm saying? And mainly it's a White section. Really, it's the Dalton area. | 8:12 |
Kara Miles | But when you were growing up, you were in the Enfield area? | 8:58 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Yeah, I guess Enfield. It was right up here. I came all across here playing where I am now. It is just like I was saying, it's just the land. We have land in two different sections. | 9:06 |
Kara Miles | So was this area all White then, the Faucett area? | 9:21 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Mainly. It's just like a section, sectioned off. It was like all White, I guess, right over in the area. But when you branch out in the little country parts, you're going to find Black, White. You know what I'm saying? | 9:26 |
Kara Miles | What kind of contact did you have with Whites growing up? | 9:43 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | I played with them. All my neighbors were White. Across here where you see the fish pond where you came in, all of them. I remember the [indistinct 00:10:05] always came over to my grandparents' house, which was where I lived. And just like we are today, they were real nice. They'd ride the horses over and things like that. We played together. But I guess it was a little unusual. I guess it was because I lived here mainly why that happened because I can still see some of that in the younger ones that grew up. The ones I played with mainly were the ones my age, and then there were a few of the younger ones that came along. I can tell they're real nice, they see us, they wave. Anything I can do for you? But you still have a little bit of something they seem like that is not quite right. But then on the other hand, the one that came along that was my age, they seemed a little different. They seemed very down to earth. | 9:47 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | They are the ones I mainly played with. The others were a little bit younger, and seemed like to me it could have been just that really the parents, because their parents, the ones that live here now seemed like wasn't as—seemed like to me they were a little bit different toward the Black than the other parents, the one I said rode the horses over and laugh and talk. And the grandparents, they would come over and talk and whatever. I guess you always find that even in a regular family where you have one who's a little bit different, that acts a little different toward people. | 11:12 |
Kara Miles | The White people who lived near you, were they about the same? Were they better off than you or about the same money and financially? | 11:54 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | I would say they were about the same as us because we were land owners. We owned the farm all the way back to I-95 from here. This part that I'm living on, like I said, except one little part that we bought from another Black man. Actually the man that we bought this from is the man who gave the land to Pittman school to build the school on to be named in honor of him. And this little section we got to go with some of my grandparents' land that we bought from my grandfather in order to build our house on. They own that farm that's on that side. So basically, I don't know, I can't say that they own. They might have owned more. I don't know about that. But I know we had a hundred and some acres here and then plus some in another area, so I guess it's about the same. | 12:05 |
Kara Miles | Was there an age when you stopped playing with the White kids or you just grew up with them? | 13:10 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | We grew up with them. We played with them all the time, the particular ones I told you about. But see, as the other little younger ones came along who was the other man's—you know what I mean? I never really played with them. Like I said, I only spoke to them. They'd wave when they see us, but I just have a feeling that they're not quite as welcome. But the other one I know, the ones that I really grew up with, they'll call you now, come by, talk to you whenever they see you. Very friendly. | 13:17 |
Kara Miles | So even as a teenager you still kept in contact with them? | 13:49 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Yeah, sure did. | 13:53 |
Kara Miles | Who were they? Do you still remember their names? | 13:57 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Jerry Hammel, and he had a sister named Cassie. They lived in a—well, it's a brick house now just down the road. You can see it. But the ones I was talking about, the ones they're right here, and they are the ones that I said I didn't really play with them. We speak and laugh and talk. They had a lady over here that worked to take care of the parents. She was Black, and she lived in a one room house. You can see that house if you go out my door. She was very nice, very clean. The grandparents told us she would always have somewhere to live until she died. She died I guess about three years ago. She's still living in a little white house right across the road. When she was living and was able to go fishing right after I got sick, that about—I got sick in '80s, '81 when I had to quit work. I was able after I had my surgery, we went over to—I'd go across there and go fishing. She told me, she said, anytime you come over here and go with me, you can go fishing, but they didn't want us to go to that pond otherwise. | 14:00 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | But I guess they let her be welcome because she had lived there and taken care of the parents. They probably didn't want her out there either, but didn't have much choice until she died. And so I went across there several times and fished with her, and I don't know how much they liked it. They never said anything, but I mentioned fishing to one of them, and I guess I shouldn't have because that's when I really found out that they really didn't want to. Because I asked them, I don't remember exactly what they said, but I asked them about fishing across there, and they were saying no for some reason. I don't know what it was, but I knew it was because we were Black. But like I said, when I would go with her, it was okay. And the only one that went was me. I went. My husband never went across there I guess since it was a lady, I guess. And she was elderly. I would sit, I'd just walk across there sometimes. | 15:42 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | But I didn't do that that much. I guess I probably went over there about five times, that was out of a couple of years because it wasn't like all my life now. | 16:46 |
Kara Miles | What contact with that woman did you have when you were growing up? Was she working for them then? | 16:59 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Not a whole lot. She was working for them, but I didn't really have—she worked for them right on the end when the parents weren't able to take care of themselves I guess, and they didn't want to do it. You know how they have housekeeper, maid or something to come in and I guess somebody to see after the parents. But I really didn't have it. We were close. She thought the world of me like that, but we would take vegetables or something across for her to have to eat, cook for herself and things like that, but not a lot of contact. | 17:05 |
Kara Miles | The parents of the White children that you were friends with, what were they like? Did they treat you fine? | 17:36 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Yeah, they were the ones I said ride the horses over or come across and talked with my grandparents, and they were very close. As a matter of fact, when I was a little girl, I guess they hadn't talked to us that much about segregation or whatever. And when the elderly lady came over, Miss Hammel, one day she came over to see my grandmother, Grandma and Grandpa, whichever. And when I ran out the door, I guess I didn't know, I knew her name was Miss Netty Hammel, I ran out and I said, "Grandma, Aunt Net out there." I guess I thought she was related to us, I don't know, but I did. I remember that real well. We'd call her Aunt Net. She was just that close to the family. Like I said, Whites growing up with my grandparents, but I guess it's not for all of them, but they were just that close to us. The grandparents and the parents are the ones that we were close to. | 17:43 |
Kara Miles | Did your family, your parents or grandparents ever tell you how you should act around Whites? Did you know there was any difference that you were supposed to act a certain way around them? | 18:58 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | No, that's what I was, I guess that's what I was saying then when I was saying what we call them. I didn't see any difference. And it could have been because I was raised in the rural area, and I didn't have that much contact with them. And houses were spaced out here, we weren't that close. Well, this house right here wasn't here, the one next to me. That house didn't exist. But the one before that, which is not a brick house, the white house back, they exist. They were Black and these were White and that was it. You see what I'm saying? | 19:13 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | And the little girl across here, she and I were about the same age. She's in New York now. We would get along real well together and sometimes walk down to the bridge. Like I was saying the White girl up here, Cassie, and her brother was with us. And I guess that was why. And like I said, we didn't come in contact with too many other people because back there in the early years there weren't too much transportation like cars and things, so we didn't really go to town that much. | 19:52 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | My grandfather, when I really came around real early at that time before the refrigerators and things, he would go to town. They would go in a wagon. I can slightly remember this. And they would get groceries and whatever and bring them back. And then they didn't have the refrigerators. That was real early. They would put some of the food down in the well to keep it cold for the next day. Then shortly after that we got the ice box where we would put the ice in and keep it. I don't remember really all of that because that was in the real early years. Shortly after that, like I said, then grandfather had a car and then we'd go to town. But I still didn't go that much because, I don't know, I guess it just wasn't that exciting. | 20:35 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | We had a store right here, and we would go to the store. I guess basically after the store was there, they had about what we wanted, which would be a 5 cent Pepsi and a penny cookie or Coke, whatever. You know what I'm saying? Sodas and things were so cheap. So if you had your nickel or dime, you were satisfied when you were going to the store. You really didn't want all those extra things like everybody has to have now. | 21:35 |
Kara Miles | So going to town wasn't anything special for you? | 22:02 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Not really. Uh-huh. Not until the later years. It seemed like the later years you wanted to go down with them even if it was just to sit in the car then. But I guess too it wasn't that much exciting in the town of Enfield. There just really wasn't a whole lot there. And it seemed like maybe in the later years, maybe when I grew up and was in high school then I enjoyed going to town more because then you see a few of your friends when you would go down there. There wasn't a whole lot to do, but you'd enjoy it, even if you go sit in the car or walk with your parents into a grocery store, something like that. | 22:11 |
Kara Miles | You talked about your grandparents. What do you know about them or remember about them? | 22:58 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Well, let's go back to this. Okay. My father died when I was—I don't remember him. It was back in about 1940 when I was a couple years old. I don't remember him. But after he died—he was a mortician with the funeral home. We lived in Enfield. Sorry about that, let's back up. I told you we lived in Enfield maybe a couple years. That was during that time. After my mom married, she was out here. They went into Enfield because he was taking care of the funeral home, and then seemingly when he got sick and died, then Mama came back out here because my grandparents were getting old and she wanted to take care of them that way. My brother, I have a brother too, and I came back out on the farm with my grandparents. And so it was a couple of years that I had lived in Enfield. I don't remember that. The only thing I remember about that we had a goat. I guess I was too young really to remember any of that. That's probably why I didn't even mention it there. | 23:04 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | And so then we were back out here at my grandparents' farm. Grandmother was more of a housewife, and she did some on the farm too, but mainly taking care of the house. I worked on the farm most of my—all my life really. I enjoyed working out there. My brother didn't. Oh, boy, if he was talking about it now, he'd tell you he worked himself to death for nothing. He said for no pain, no nothing, just to take care of somebody else. I guess I didn't really feel that way too much. They were taking care of me, so I figured out it was just a part of life. Anyway, they grew up. They were very prosperous, like I said, landowners. | 24:21 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Back then there weren't too many but a few, you know what I mean, recognized in the community. There were some of them. My mom lived out here. Then my aunt, like I said, she had gone to school. She came back and started teaching, and she lived there with us. And that's how I reckon I got a good start going to school because I was one of the fortunate ones. I started school real early. By being able to go with her at that, they weren't that tight on birth certificates, so I finished high school at 15. I started teaching at 19, and that sort of helped out I guess. But if they had been like they are now, they don't let you in school, you know what I mean? You can't do too much that early. But I was fortunate enough to do that. | 25:15 |
Kara Miles | Well, let me get back to this first before I go back on your grandparents. What kind of things did you used to do on the farm? | 26:14 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | I used to chop cotton, peanuts, tobacco. I used to tie tobacco, that's, I guess, tie a loop. I used to love to do that. We used to shake peanuts. Picking cotton was something I couldn't do. I tried. I could pick all day, and I couldn't pick 40 pounds. It was just something I couldn't do. It seemed like all the worms would sting me or maybe it was just something I didn't want to do. I don't know. My mother could pick like 200 pounds. I'd still pick all day, and I had 40. She'd pick on my row and help me keep up with some. Anyway, we would stay out of school to work on the farm. Some days we did have to miss and some days very little though. I didn't stay out that much for the farm. | 26:19 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | I'd always do it in the afternoon when we come in. We were working until sundown and then on weekends like that. But my parents didn't believe in us staying out all the time. My brother did more. He stayed out a little more than I did, I guess being a boy and they needed him when grandparents were getting old. I guess that's why he really hated it more because I didn't really do, I'd say, too much. | 27:22 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | And, of course, we had a lot of chores to do because back then we had to get water in, wood to burn and things like that. I really think that's what's wrong with kids today. They don't have enough to do. You can agree. Am I right? | 27:55 |
Kara Miles | Probably. | 28:12 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Honestly, because this is all they want to do is watch TV or whatever they want to do mainly. You ask them to vacuum the floors and things like that, they'll do it when they get ready. But I'm just saying they don't really see the need for it. There's too many facilities, too many things they have more today. We didn't have them and we could really see the need for them. And then you grow up getting these things and you learn to appreciate them all. Kids today, they're born with them, and they just don't see any need for it. | 28:13 |
Kara Miles | You said that you had to miss a little time from school. Were there children at your school who had to stay out longer? | 28:48 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Yes. The kids' absentees then were high during the peak seasons when the chopping time or when it was ready to harvest the crops. Yes, they were out quite a bit. | 28:52 |
Kara Miles | Did teachers understand that or did they get punished for missing school? | 29:06 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Back then, not as much. I think that the teachers understood that the children had to miss to survive and help the parents some. Then a lot of times they would go home early in the afternoon, they try to go half a day and then go home and work the other half and then stay out late in the afternoons or whatever—not afternoon, evenings really, working. During peak seasons when they just had to stay out, the teachers really understood it. | 29:10 |
Kara Miles | What were the school terms? School went from September to— | 29:48 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | August. They went from August to May. It started in August. Usually a lot of them didn't even enroll then because they were so busy on the farm. They would be late maybe a couple of weeks, then some enrolled and then had to stay out. | 29:54 |
Kara Miles | How did your grandparents get their land? | 30:17 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | That I can't answer no more than they bought it from White land. I know that part. They had to pay for it. I basically don't know any more than that. And it wasn't that much. It didn't cost a lot. I remember them saying it, but I don't know the dollar amount. It didn't cost much then. If you average it out in today's money, it would've been real high. Like I said, a soda and a cookie, you could eat for nothing then whereas now since you don't go to the store. I don't know. | 30:23 |
Kara Miles | Did a lot of Black people in the area own their land? | 31:21 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | No, very few land Black land owners. One across the road, he owned the land. He had a few acres right in here. Then we were land owners all the way back, and this was all White. And since then they lost theirs to a White land across the road. They have the house, but they lost the land to a White man, I guess. I don't know. I think maybe, I guess maybe part of it could have been [indistinct 00:32:01]. I don't know. Because when you have a family, and if they don't pull together, they can lose it. If you have some that's not that interested, unless another one steps in, you know what I mean? Half of them decide they want the money anyway unless one comes in and buys it out, it makes a difference. All of the land over here though was—they owned it, and they just wanted to divide it. You know what I mean? But they rented to a White man now for rental purposes for income, they don't tend it anymore. So it's a White man that rents it. | 31:23 |
Kara Miles | So the Blacks who didn't own their land, were they sharecroppers? | 32:42 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Yeah, most of them were sharecroppers. All the ones that weren't, they did day labor work for the White man basically. I think they did some for Blacks because I know we had a lot of them that sometimes you would go pick cotton and shake peanuts and things and help us doing that. And, of course, most of them did work though because I guess it was more White owned farms. So most of them, I guess, were working for the Whites. | 32:45 |
Kara Miles | How was your family seen in the community given that you all owned your land and most people didn't work? Were you seen as different in any way in the community do you think, your family? | 33:20 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | In a way, yes, seemingly that most of them would—I don't know how to describe it, but I guess it's just like now most of them think of you as—I don't know even how to say it. But if you were a landowner, they felt like you had more than they had. But I have never seen any difference in the ones who didn't have as far. I guess because we were always the same regardless to what we had. | 33:34 |
Kara Miles | Were you friends with any sharecroppers' children? | 34:27 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Oh, yes. Yeah, we were. As a matter of fact, I guess I was more friends with them especially after we grew up because you get to know them more. When you were in school, you were with them more. Because like I said, if you had about—out of the, we'll say a hundred that was at school, you did good to have five of them that were landowners. I mean, the parents, that is. You know what I'm saying, out of the kids? It could have been maybe just two or three. I don't know. All of them were the same as far as I was concerned. I guess my parents really instilled that within us. You know what I'm saying? To just be the same regardless to what and to always help somebody else. I think my husband tells me that's what wrong with me now, I do too much. | 34:31 |
Kara Miles | Let's go back, we were talking about your grandparents. What do you remember about them? What were they like? | 35:33 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | In what respect? | 35:41 |
Kara Miles | Anything. | 35:41 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | I don't know. They were fun to me, I guess, because I grew up with them. Grandpa, he used to plow the mule when he was trying to till the farm. I don't know, they were fun. He would always want me to scratch his hair or something at night. They were just fun. | 35:48 |
Kara Miles | Did they ever tell you things about their childhood? | 36:25 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Not too much. No, not that I remember too much. | 36:32 |
Kara Miles | Did they grow up here? | 36:45 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Yes, they lived over there all the time. They had one house, which wasn't many rooms in it. And then they built a new home themselves. I think my grandmother had a brother who could do some carpentry work, so they built our house, and it was nice too. We had, I guess, about 14, 15 rooms. We have about six bedrooms, a dining room, kitchen and living room. Upstairs and downstairs we had about two or three bedrooms in this house and four upstairs, I believe. In fact, the house is over here now. My aunt have it, but she bricked it up and she removed one part of it, which was the kitchen and dining room was sort of off from the house. It wasn't off, but all this was the house and then a little porch here, the kitchen and dining. She removed that and put the kitchen inside when she remodeled the house. | 36:46 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | I don't like the house now. It was pretty when we grew up because it was a pretty weather bowl white, and it was painted so nice with the porches and the big white columns. She removed all that and just boxed it with brick, and it looks awful. But really, because I think houses that would really look pretty now, if she could have kept that plan with all those white columns and redone the house in that type style. That's what they're building now, and they're pretty, but she decided she wanted to change it, I guess, which is okay because I'm not living there anyway after that. | 37:54 |
Kara Miles | So it had six bedrooms you said? | 38:36 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Yeah. | 38:39 |
Kara Miles | How many people lived there? Who lived there with you? | 38:39 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Nobody but my grandmother, grandfather, my mother and my aunt, the one I told you that teached and my brother. That's all. It was plenty of space for everybody. Everybody always came because it was a lot of my mother's sisters and brothers and aunts, and one of my aunts had a lot of children. She had about nine children herself. The rest of them had small families. One of her sisters had one, and then there was another one with two. My mother had two kids. A lot of times the one who had about nine or ten children, sometimes they would come up and help my grandfather work on the farm when they weren't doing anything. And sometimes they'd just spend the night, things like that. So he had lots of space for anybody. | 38:44 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | At that time you didn't even have to lock your doors. You could leave your windows open all night and doors open, and nobody bothered your house or go to there never. You better not leave it open now though. Anything might walk in. I guess that's what made life so beautiful then. Everybody cared for everybody. They see a car go in your house, like a stranger, they look out for you. Things like that. Now everybody's busy. My neighbors, they'll look out now. But I'm just saying basically everybody's for themselves now. They're in such a fast pace, they don't have time for others. | 39:35 |
Kara Miles | Did your friends from school who maybe were sharecroppers' children or something, did you all used to visit each other's houses? | 40:27 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | In the later years, yes. When I was in high school, a little bit. Not too much because I guess when I grew up in high school, I was so much younger than some of them. We had one or two in there maybe my age. But I was so much younger until when I finished high school. I wasn't even driving a car. And houses were so far. It was like when I went to the junior, senior prom, I didn't even have a date for the prom. My brother took me. The other year my cousin came and picked me up and took me. It wasn't like now if you don't have a date, you don't go. We'd enjoy just going. You know what I mean? It wasn't like you had to have a date or a man. That was the least thing we'd be thinking about. I guess it's hard for my son and others. I tell my child, shoot, when I had my first date I was about finishing college. It's unbelievable to say that you finished high school not dating. You laugh and talk, but you really didn't. I guess you're too immature to get serious with anybody. It's unbelievable. They just don't believe it all. | 40:35 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | But that was life. I said I'm not getting married until I finish school and then travel and do a few of the things, you know what I mean, that I'd like to do. Then I'd be ready to settle down. So I didn't get married until I was 27. By then I said I was ready. On weekends my girlfriend and I would just get out, we'd go visit her sister in New Jersey. The next weekend we might go to Philadelphia to my brothers. Little things like that. Just to be going and enjoying it. | 41:51 |
Kara Miles | Let's go back to school again. What do you remember about your teachers? | 42:29 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | My teachers, as a matter of fact, at one time, one of the teachers at that time, they couldn't get back and forth to their jobs. Some of them I guess could, but sometimes some didn't drive. And one of the teachers came and stayed with us, and she was real nice. Mrs. Alexander. Ms. Whittley was her name before married. And she married Alexander afterwards. She lived with us for a while. Then we had another one who came and lived with us too, Ms. Nickerson. And I think, like I said, teachers had to find somewhere in the community to live sometimes so they could get to work too. But they were nice. I always had very nice teachers. | 42:45 |
Kara Miles | So they would live with you, and they would walk to the school? Or how would they get to school? | 43:43 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | No. At that time, I think the ones that would live us were teaching at the same school my aunt started teaching at, and they would ride together. My mother would take them and pick them up. My aunt wasn't driving either. My mother would take them to school, drive off, go back, pick them up when they go to work. Then after that my mother taught my aunt to drive and helped her get her license. So she then started driving to school herself. But my mother always did drive. | 43:52 |
Kara Miles | Do any of the teachers that you had stick out in your mind as being special or any that you really admire or looked up to? | 44:23 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Not really. I guess I had identified with most of them so well. All of them have a little distinct place in my heart. But not really, I can't think of anything special. | 44:34 |
Kara Miles | Where did your aunt go to school? You said she went to college. | 44:58 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | She went to Winston-Salem. Yeah. | 45:03 |
Kara Miles | Did your mother go to college? | 45:06 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | My mother didn't go to college, no. My father graduated from St. Paul. He was in embalming school, Mortuary Science. | 45:08 |
Kara Miles | When you graduated high school, where did you go to college? | 45:25 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | I went to Winston-Salem. Well, no, sorry about that. I went to Shaw University, but I didn't like Shaw. I was a little bit too young to decide what I wanted to do when I finished college. I remember my mother telling me—at that time, I said, "I don't know, I think I want to be a secretary. I think I want to go to beauty school." And she said to me, she said, "You're going to school for four years and something, and so you may as well make your mind up if you're going to college." I said okay. My dad's brother lives in Raleigh, and his wife was Dean of Women at Shaw University, and so they had some influence over me about going. Let her come to Shaw. You know how somebody makes your mind up. I went to Shaw, and I did well. | 45:30 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | —Break-ins, quiet life. And it seemed like we had break-ins in the dormitory I was living in or something was happening all the time. And I don't know, I guess I did, maybe I just didn't want to be there either. And so I was frightened. So then they said well let her come and stay with us. So I moved off campus on the second semester and I don't know, for some reason I guess I just didn't like it and I just wanted to go to Winston-Salem and that could have been because of my aunt going there. You know how somebody else go and so I wanted to go. But I really did. I liked it. I liked Winston-Salem and I really enjoyed it. So I just did my other three years there and I finished in Elementary-Ed and after that I left and came back and I didn't really want to teach. | 0:01 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | I wanted to teach. Yes, I loved it. Everybody loved me, everybody wanted to be in my class. And I came back to do my student teaching. I did it at Eastman. The school I graduated and the principal was so impressed that he told me, he said, "Make sure you get a job when you come back." So what I did, I had the 3rd grade, I did my student teaching. The next year he gave my same class. So I went there and started working when I graduate with that same class, which is the 4th grade. And I guess that was one of my favorite classes too. And most of them were about—see I was only about what, eight, nine years older than they and right now half of them, "Boy, you look younger than I do." Because most of them, some point is about 45 now, I guess. | 0:54 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | So 46 maybe depending on how early they were in school and I get tickled. People be looking at me. "You said that's one of your students." I said "It is one of them." "No, it can't be." Yeah, I said, "Well, it is." Yeah, but yep, it was like that though. | 1:44 |
Kara Miles | How was Winston-Salem different from Enfield? | 2:13 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Well, Winston-Salem, I guess it was a larger town, more places to go. But when I was there we only could go out with upperclassmen when I was in school we couldn't go into town. So I didn't really go into town that much. We didn't have a whole lot of extra money to spend because the parents were footing the bills for the college. It wasn't like borrowing money or whatever. They were just—and I had whatever I needed. But you know what I'm saying all the extra things, you don't have cars and things like the kids have the day in school and we would get a chance to go into town once a week. | 2:19 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | The personal items, the little things that you wanted to pick up and with the group. But it was a large town and a lot of things to do. But really, like I said, I guess I went to school a bit too young because it wasn't too much that I was too interested in and there was some slipping off the campus and everything, getting in trouble, getting locked out at night. They were out there and I guess you could be easy, live that way if you wanted to go. But on a whole I guess I just didn't, I guess I was more interested in trying to get my education I guess I valued it a lot. And so that was— | 3:12 |
Kara Miles | Did you join any clubs or organizations at college? | 4:02 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | No, not really. | 4:07 |
Kara Miles | No sorority? | 4:12 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | No. I had thought one time about joining Delta, but I didn't know at that time I didn't really want to. After my father died, I really didn't want to put too much pressure on my mother for money to pledge and go through it. And I guess I just didn't bother. And then I had said, well if I do I'll just go in a graduate chapter afterwards. But I guess if you don't, while you're in college, sometimes you don't even bother to go into grad after you come out. Yeah. I didn't. | 4:13 |
Kara Miles | A lot of people that I've talked to, in fact most people I've talked to who went to college seem to have joined sororities or fraternities and things. What was being on campus like, not being in a sorority or fraternity, was it, was there any kind of exclusion you felt or? | 4:53 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | No, not then. Maybe now, yes. But back then it was just a selective few, you didn't have too many sororities and I mean you had a few but you didn't have that many people pledging. If you had eight to ten in a group. You see what I'm trying to say? And you didn't have a majority, like now you have so many and so many of them there into so much. You know what I mean? You probably would want to be in just like my son, he's played Sigma. What was that, his first year at East Carolina, this is his third year in it. But back there then it was, it really didn't matter as much, I'd say, as it would today. | 5:14 |
Kara Miles | And how were people in sororities and fraternities viewed on campus? Was that— | 6:03 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Just like anybody else. I think more of the focus would've been then on basketball, football more so those athletes, you know what I mean? More so than the fraternity and sorority, even though they were there and they'd have the step shows, you know what I mean? And different things. People would go out and watch them and whatever, you know what I mean? But I guess like I said back there, then they didn't focus on it as much as they would today. | 6:10 |
Kara Miles | How about when you were in high school? Were there any clubs that you were in? | 6:47 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | They were a few clubs. You know what? I can't even remember them. I don't know. Seemed like through some of my, I was in a couple of clubs in college but not, you know what I mean? That, but I can't remember all of them now. I don't know through my sickness sometime I just forget some of it. | 6:53 |
Kara Miles | Were they social clubs or? | 7:13 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Yeah, social clubs, things like that. | 7:16 |
Kara Miles | Do you remember what kind of things you used to do? | 7:20 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Not really. | 7:23 |
Kara Miles | Are the ones that you were in some social clubs in high school, were they school related or they? | 7:26 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | School related? Yeah, they were school related. | 7:31 |
Kara Miles | What role did the church play in your life growing up? Did you go to church all the time or? | 7:38 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | I won't say all the time but I went a lot. I'm a member of a Methodist church now, AME, and which is, well I was trying to tell you one time Pleasant Hill was a school and there's a Baptist church right beside it. And maybe about a couple of miles is a Holiness church. And then the AME Methodist and my grandparents remember the Pleasant Hill Baptist and I'm a member of the Methodist church. My mother's a member of the Methodist church. Don't ask me how that happens because I really don't know. And I like both churches and I go to Pleasant Hill and I go to mine and sometimes I think I like Pleasant Hill better. They just hold too long and then they start and with my back I can't sit in there that long and sometimes I'll just go on over to mine instead, the two. | 7:47 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | But I like both churches but I don't know, I think it was because of my mother and some of her sisters and whatever is why I ended up at the Methodist Church. I think I was too young to make a choice for my own, you just go into church that your family's a member. And like I said, I don't know why they didn't go Baptist, but there was a little stigma over the years that I had heard that the ones over at the Methodist church seemed like they were a little something. | 8:57 |
Kara Miles | High or thought they were high or something? | 9:41 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Yeah. Or something. It seemed like I've heard it and I've often sit back and tried to view it, but I don't see any difference. And like I said, it could be me. Like I said, I view people as people I guess I've dealt with them and incidentally coming back when we were talking about me working, I was telling you about my student teaching, I wanted to go back to that. I didn't stay in teaching that long. Remember I told you I thought I wanted to do something else? I didn't want anything that was going to confine me. So I left and I went back to school and I went to University of North Carolina Greensboro and I went to Chapel Hill and well I went to East Carolina in the summer sessions. That was afterwards though. And I changed my certificate to speech and language. So actually I was a speech therapist for what, about 18 years. | 9:42 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | I taught three years and then I just went back to the same schools I was working in and I have a speech and language for the county schools and that's what you probably want to hear. Okay. When I started out there were two of us. It was a White girl hired and she was like had all the White schools. I was first Black hired. | 10:37 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | I mean, I had four of the Black schools because they couldn't afford to hire. So I just had Pittman, the same little schools around here in Boyd, Eastman. And that was nice. And she and I are close now, believe it or not now we are real close friends and we worked together I guess about five years. And then she went out, let me see, that was '68, I believe. She went out on maternity leave, but she went out, they didn't have a White one so they didn't have anybody serving the White school. And they were so impressed with me because so gave me all the White schools. So then they hired somebody for the Black schools. So they hired two other girls for the Blacks and I had all White for the county. | 11:12 |
Kara Miles | What was that like teaching, being at White schools? | 12:12 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | You know what? I didn't see any difference. I don't know. When I went out on maternity leave in '72 with my son, I had parents to bring the White kids into my home for me to work with them. You had more interest in the kids from the White parents. They support you. They've come down, they'd bring me vegetables. They used to bring me butter beans and things from the garden. Go right upstairs, turn the TV on. I had the children out here just working with them. I mean, this was free. It wasn't no fee charged. They just didn't want the kids to go without the services while I was out school. And they asked me what I do and I told them, I say, "You bringing to my house, I do it because I ain't doing nothing." And they would bring their kids in here and sit up there and bring me butter beans and things like that and just sit there and shell them watch TV while the kids and I were here working. They were just that interested. I did find a lot of more interest in them. | 12:16 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | I had some that I had interest and I think that was because I was taking them back and forth up to Duke for those evaluations and whatever and the doctor was working with us so they didn't have much choice, a few of the Black parents. But I did find that White seemed like had more interest in their kids and making sure that they got what they needed. | 13:26 |
Kara Miles | Yeah. It seems that you've had pretty good experiences with Whites. | 13:52 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Oh yeah. | 13:58 |
Kara Miles | Are there people that you knew growing up or that you heard of through your parents or through anyone, were there incidents with Whites that people who didn't have such good relations with Whites, things that happened between Whites and Blacks? | 13:59 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | I had some cousins who I know had they were going, wanted to be served like downtown. See they were living in town around the corner and they wanted to be served. They had this restaurant plantation inn or something and they wanted food. So I know they picket down there and did lots of things like that on the, had lines out there. And they would come out to—people would come out to spray them with the water hose and everything. It was going on. | 14:19 |
Kara Miles | Was this in the '60s or in the? | 15:01 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | In the '60s. Yeah, sure was. They wouldn't serve them food down there. They'd have sit-ins and they'd go out there and sit in front of the place, make sure nobody else didn't go in. And I rode by and looked at them a couple times, but I did not go out there in it because I don't know. Well, I guess it was instilled within us too. The man that was principal of the high school when he hired me, I guess—you asked me about somebody having influence. He had a little influence over my life. I think I admired him, Mr. Young, because he was the one, like I said to you when I did my student teaching, remember I told you he came back and he told me, he said, "I'm going to give you the same class." And then the next year I said that he let me go with them the next year. He let me go right on with them and I truly enjoyed them. And then I stayed one more year like I said. And then I started in speech and he was the cause of that. | 15:03 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | He told me he thought I would do good and he asked me why didn't I go back if I wanted to do something except just be confined to a classroom. And then he moved up to be superintendent, too before he passed a few years back. But he was a person I could talk to and I guess he wanted to see me do well, too. | 16:14 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | But I don't know, I guess like you said, I haven't had too many run ins with the White. But like I said, cousins and all I know they've had and I've heard them talking about it, but I really hadn't had it a whole lot. I do remember sometimes you see the signs out where it said Colored and White bathrooms, had it go on the Colored side, things like that in town. | 16:46 |
Kara Miles | Well, how did that make you feel? What did you think of that when you were in town and saw those signs? | 17:15 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | I guess if I had had to really go into them and use them, I think I would've gotten mad, but I guess if I wasn't treated pretty good by them, I guess I would've gotten mad. Or if I had have been right just in a Black section, you know what I mean? Just grew up with us all Black right in there. And then I parked ride out there and see it, I probably would. Or then if I was riding the bus and they tell me go all the way to the back because that's what happened to a lot of them. But when I started riding the bus, I was sitting anywhere. I had ride with myself on that bus and I would sit basically anywhere I wanted to sit when I came home. 'Cause at that time, like I said, they didn't have transportation. You know what I'm saying? Get you like they have now. I don't know. | 17:32 |
Kara Miles | How about your friends, some of your friends who weren't in the same circumstances as you? | 18:36 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Oh yeah, they'd be upset. Oh yeah, they'd be ready to fight and they would. | 18:41 |
Kara Miles | They would fight? You remember times of that? You remember? | 18:46 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | I mean they'd be ready to, I tell you they be talking up some stuff. Like I said, some of their get up picket lines, they walk them and it was really something, you know what I mean? Like I said, they just get the water hose and spray them with water. But I guess because when I talked to my husband about it, he say the same thing. He said, I didn't get a touch of really all of it was back there, you know what I mean? I guess I came along at a good time and then I started working and I guess I got along with them so well until—but then he told me too, he wondered if I had been a darker complexion would I have had a harder time too? He say this to me, he wondered if they accepted me because I was one of the lighter Blacks. Yeah. | 18:49 |
Kara Miles | What do you think of that? | 20:00 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | There is a possibility because there are some Blacks, the first ones that went into the schools. 'Cause I was out there and they weren't accepted as well. So it is a possibility. Sometimes I think because I was moving around too so much that helped. And then, I don't know, I guess I've just always been a friendly person too. It depends, I think on a lot of things, personality and friendliness too helped. But then again, I can imagine that that skin color could help some too, I would think. | 20:00 |
Kara Miles | Yeah. How about in the Black community? Was skin color an issue? Were lighter-skinned people treated differently or darker-skinned people treated differently? | 20:34 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Maybe so if you think about it, I think maybe the lighter-skinned and the neatness too along with it. Because you lighter skin ain't dirty, right? Be about the same, I guess. Yeah, I would think so. Yeah, I think they did accept them a little better. | 20:51 |
Kara Miles | Do you remember instances? | 21:15 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | I can't think of anything right off-hand. Uh-huh. | 21:20 |
Kara Miles | How about teachers? Did teachers treat? | 21:24 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | Students? I think, yeah, I would think so because when you have students come out there and they didn't comb their hair and you see them little bullets as you might say up there and they come out the bed and they come in there with them little [indistinct 00:21:49] and bugs in it. They didn't really want to touch them and I really think they didn't get the proper education either because they didn't want to really take up time with them. And I think they've been neglected. I really do. | 21:29 |
Kara Miles | But when you were growing up, did you notice these things? | 22:06 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | No, not really. No, I don't remember any of them. | 22:14 |
Kara Miles | Okay. Well, that's all the questions I have. Are there things that I didn't bring up that you want to tell me? | 22:32 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | I was just trying to see was if there was some other incident. I can't think of anything right offhand. | 22:42 |
Kara Miles | Okay. | 22:54 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | I forget to tell you that when I was hired as a speech therapist for the county, they all stated in the newspaper article that I would work with the Negro students of Halifax County in this field of speech and hearing. And I did start with the Negro as the first children, but after a couple of years then I was transferred to all White schools and I worked with all White. | 23:04 |
Kara Miles | When was this? What year was this when this article? Do you know? | 23:31 |
Vivian Cofield Spence | This was in '63 or '64. | 23:38 |
Kara Miles | Okay. | 23:38 |
Item Info
The preservation of the Duke University Libraries Digital Collections and the Duke Digital Repository programs are supported in part by the Lowell and Eileen Aptman Digital Preservation Fund