James Harding interview recording, 1993 August 06 / Behind the Veil / Duke Digital Repository

James Harding

— I never knew where it at.

0:00

Chris Stewart

Huh?

0:00

James Harding

I never knew—

0:03

Chris Stewart

— and ask you to just tell me your full name and your address, if you could.

0:05

James Harding

I don't know my address down here.

0:15

Chris Stewart

Can you state your full name so I can get a recording level on it? What's your name?

0:17

James Harding

James Harding.

0:22

Chris Stewart

Okay. Mr. Harding, you were just telling me that you were born in New Bern, is that correct?

0:26

James Harding

Yes, ma'am.

0:31

Chris Stewart

Where in New Bern were you born?

0:32

James Harding

Over here at a place called Duffy Field.

0:33

Chris Stewart

Duffy Field, I've heard about that.

0:36

James Harding

On Middle Street.

0:44

Chris Stewart

On Middle Street?

0:45

James Harding

My address is 808 Middle.

0:45

Chris Stewart

808, did you say?

0:45

James Harding

Uh-huh.

0:45

Chris Stewart

How long did you live in that house?

0:54

James Harding

About 19 years.

0:56

Chris Stewart

Do you remember that house at all?

1:01

James Harding

Yes, ma'am.

1:03

Chris Stewart

What do you remember about it?

1:05

James Harding

It was built when I was born.

1:05

Chris Stewart

It was built when you were born?

1:10

James Harding

Mm-hmm.

1:12

Chris Stewart

Mm-hmm. What did it look like?

1:12

James Harding

The same old house. My mother and father had eight healthy children, and every last one of them was born in that house.

1:14

Chris Stewart

They had eight children and every one of them were born in that house?

1:23

James Harding

Mm-hmm.

1:31

Chris Stewart

What was your neighborhood like there in Duffy Field?

1:31

James Harding

Very [indistinct 00:01:40].

1:39

Chris Stewart

I'm sorry?

1:39

James Harding

Very [indistinct 00:01:40].

1:39

Chris Stewart

Uh-huh. Do you remember any of your neighbors?

1:48

James Harding

Yes, ma'am.

1:51

Chris Stewart

What do you remember about them?

1:52

James Harding

They were good neighbors.

1:55

Chris Stewart

They were good neighbors?

1:55

Speaker 1

Testing, testing. One, two, three. Testing, testing. One, two, three.

1:55

James Harding

There was a girl by the name of Frances, a girl named Francis.

1:55

Chris Stewart

Francis?

1:55

James Harding

Francis Nelson.

1:55

Chris Stewart

Francis Nelson.

1:55

James Harding

Yes, ma'am.

2:09

Chris Stewart

Well, what do you remember about her?

2:10

James Harding

I remember when she moved there.

2:11

Chris Stewart

Yeah? Did you go to over to her house very often?

2:17

James Harding

Yes, ma'am.

2:19

Chris Stewart

What'd you do over there when you went?

2:20

James Harding

I sat down and talked with her.

2:21

Chris Stewart

What would you talk about?

2:21

James Harding

I used to play basketball with her.

2:27

Chris Stewart

Basketball?

2:29

James Harding

Yes, ma'am.

2:29

Chris Stewart

You played basketball with her?

2:30

James Harding

Yes, ma'am.

2:30

Chris Stewart

How old were you?

2:39

James Harding

She was about—

2:39

Chris Stewart

People with a horse and a buggy, do you remember that?

2:39

James Harding

Yes, ma'am.

2:39

Chris Stewart

Yeah? Is that how you traveled around?

2:39

James Harding

No, ma'am, I ride a bicycle.

2:40

Chris Stewart

Oh, you rode a bicycle.

2:48

James Harding

I grew up in a grocery store.

2:54

Chris Stewart

Huh?

2:55

James Harding

I grew up in a grocery store.

2:55

Chris Stewart

You grew up?

2:55

James Harding

In a grocery store.

2:55

Chris Stewart

Oh, okay. You grew up in a grocery store?

2:55

James Harding

Yes, ma'am.

3:03

Chris Stewart

Your parents owned the grocery store?

3:03

James Harding

No, ma'am, different people.

3:04

Chris Stewart

Oh, was there a grocery store nearby where you grew up?

3:04

James Harding

Yes, ma'am.

3:04

Chris Stewart

Is that where you hung out?

3:04

James Harding

A man who lived nextdoor to me, he run the grocery store.

3:04

Chris Stewart

I'm sorry?

3:04

James Harding

A man who lived nextdoor to me, he run the grocery store.

3:04

Chris Stewart

The man nextdoor to you did, I see. Who did you play with in your neighborhood when you were growing up?

3:04

James Harding

Well, I played with a friend named Willy Allen. He's dead now.

3:24

Chris Stewart

Willy who?

3:25

James Harding

Willy Allen.

3:25

Chris Stewart

Okay.

3:25

James Harding

He's dead now.

3:25

Chris Stewart

Yeah? What kinds of things would you do?

3:37

James Harding

I'd play ball mostly.

3:39

Chris Stewart

Yeah? Now, I'm interested in this basketball that you played with Francis Nelson.

3:43

James Harding

Yeah. I used to play.

3:48

Chris Stewart

Was she an older woman?

3:50

James Harding

No, ma'am, she was younger than I am.

3:52

Chris Stewart

Oh yeah? Where would you play basketball?

3:54

James Harding

In our backyard.

3:56

Chris Stewart

In your backyard.

3:58

James Harding

We took turns.

3:59

Chris Stewart

Yeah?

4:00

James Harding

[indistinct 00:04:04].

4:00

Chris Stewart

What kind of work did your parents do?

4:05

James Harding

Not much, just working to a house as a cook. My father, he worked with the railroad.

4:13

Chris Stewart

He worked with the railroad.

4:19

James Harding

Yeah.

4:19

Chris Stewart

What kind of work did he do on the railroad?

4:19

James Harding

Well, he was a bottle washer, he washed [indistinct 00:04:34] everything out.

4:33

Chris Stewart

He was a bottle washer?

4:34

James Harding

Yes, ma'am.

4:34

Chris Stewart

Uh-huh. Did he travel a lot?

4:36

James Harding

No, ma'am.

4:37

Chris Stewart

No? So he was home at the end of the day? He would come home at the end of the day?

4:40

James Harding

My father lived there.

4:43

Chris Stewart

Yeah, I wondered if he was traveling with the railroad, if he'd go from place to place.

4:43

James Harding

No. No, he didn't travel. He worked in the shop.

4:52

Chris Stewart

Oh, he worked in the shop?

4:57

James Harding

Mm-hmm.

5:01

Chris Stewart

I see. Were you grandparents alive when you were growing up?

5:01

James Harding

Not my grandmother, but my grandfather.

5:05

Chris Stewart

What do you remember about them?

5:05

James Harding

My grandmother died at home with us.

5:12

Chris Stewart

Oh, really? How did she die?

5:15

James Harding

I don't know to tell you the truth.

5:16

Chris Stewart

Do you remember when she died though?

5:17

James Harding

Yes, ma'am. I was with her when she died.

5:17

Chris Stewart

You were with her. What was that like?

5:35

James Harding

Ma'am?

5:35

Chris Stewart

What was that like?

5:35

James Harding

What her name was?

5:35

Chris Stewart

Huh?

5:35

James Harding

What her name was?

5:35

Chris Stewart

No, what was that like when she died? When you were with her when she died?

5:35

James Harding

I was with her when she died.

5:36

Chris Stewart

You were?

5:44

James Harding

Her home was Pollocksville.

5:44

Chris Stewart

In Pollocksville.

5:44

James Harding

Yes. That was where my mother come from.

5:44

Chris Stewart

That's where your mother's from?

5:50

James Harding

Yes, ma'am.

5:51

Chris Stewart

So you were you visiting your grand-mom when she died?

5:51

James Harding

No, she lived with us.

5:54

Chris Stewart

Oh. Did your grandparents ever tell you any stories about when they were growing up?

6:00

James Harding

My granddaddy used to sit down and talk to me about what he did when he was a boy.

6:06

Chris Stewart

Yeah? What would he tell you?

6:36

James Harding

He said he got into everything.

6:36

Chris Stewart

He was?

6:36

James Harding

All kids are like that. I worked at the grocery store for 14 years.

6:37

Chris Stewart

You?

6:44

James Harding

Worked to the grocery store for 14 years.

6:44

Chris Stewart

You worked with where?

6:44

James Harding

To the grocery store.

6:44

Chris Stewart

You worked at the grocery store for about 14 years.

6:44

James Harding

I was a meat cutter.

6:44

Chris Stewart

You were a meat cutter? How old were you when you were working there?

6:48

James Harding

I had that job when I was about 13, 14 years old.

6:48

Chris Stewart

Really? Was it dangerous work to be a meat cutter?

6:53

James Harding

No, ma'am.

6:58

Chris Stewart

No? What exactly was your job?

7:00

James Harding

I was a meat cutter. The only thing is you cut yourself. That was [indistinct 00:07:09].

7:08

Chris Stewart

How old were you when you got that scar?

7:10

James Harding

I was young.

7:13

Chris Stewart

That's a good scar there, Mr. Harding.

7:13

James Harding

I was young.

7:13

Chris Stewart

Did you have to get stitches?

7:13

James Harding

Yes, ma'am.

7:13

Chris Stewart

Where did you go when you hurt yourself there? Where did you go?

7:13

James Harding

I went to the doctor.

7:13

Chris Stewart

What doctor?

7:13

James Harding

Dr. Mann.

7:13

Chris Stewart

Dr. Mann, yeah.

7:13

James Harding

He's dead now.

7:13

Chris Stewart

Yeah, yeah. Did the other kids in the family work too?

7:13

James Harding

Yes, ma'am.

7:13

Chris Stewart

Mm-hmm.

7:15

James Harding

My brother, he was a bricklayer.

7:15

Chris Stewart

He was a bricklayer.

7:48

James Harding

Yes, ma'am.

7:49

Chris Stewart

Did he start young?

7:49

James Harding

Yeah, he start young.

7:50

Chris Stewart

Mm-hmm.

7:50

James Harding

That was around — he worked at the grocery store.

7:50

Chris Stewart

Oh, he did? What was the name of the grocery store?

7:56

James Harding

Friendly Meat Market.

8:01

Chris Stewart

What did you say?

8:01

James Harding

Friendly Meat Market was where I worked at.

8:05

Chris Stewart

Friendly's Meat Market.

8:06

James Harding

Friendly Meat Market.

8:06

Chris Stewart

Did you deliver? Did anybody ever deliver groceries?

8:12

James Harding

Yes, ma'am, until I learned how to cut meat.

8:18

Chris Stewart

Hmm?

8:26

James Harding

Yes ma'am, until I learned how to cut meat.

8:26

Chris Stewart

Until you learned how to cut meat.

8:26

James Harding

Then the man put me in the store.

8:26

Chris Stewart

Was this a White-owned or Black-owned grocery store?

8:27

James Harding

Ma'am?

8:29

Chris Stewart

White people or Black people who owned it?

8:30

James Harding

Oh, a White fella.

8:31

Chris Stewart

Mm-hmm. How much did you get paid?

8:33

James Harding

Well, I tell you the truth [indistinct 00:08:39] when I first started working there, I made $3 a week.

8:36

Chris Stewart

$3 a week.

8:39

James Harding

Mm-hmm, and I thought that was big money.

8:45

Chris Stewart

That was big money for you, huh?

8:47

James Harding

Mm-hmm.

8:51

Chris Stewart

Was that when you were meat cutting or delivering?

8:51

James Harding

When I was on boxing, I was at $2 a week when I was a boxer.

8:52

Chris Stewart

Was this person who owned it, was he Mr. Furman?

9:05

James Harding

No. I don't know where his home at.

9:08

Chris Stewart

You got paid weekly?

9:19

James Harding

Yes, ma'am.

9:20

Chris Stewart

Mm-hmm. What time did you start work in the morning when you were meat cutting?

9:20

James Harding

I start working [indistinct 00:09:23] come in.

9:22

Chris Stewart

What time would it come in?

9:22

James Harding

The truck? I be working at 7:00 AM in the morning.

9:23

Chris Stewart

7:00 AM in the morning.

9:31

James Harding

Yes, ma'am.

9:38

Chris Stewart

And how late would you work?

9:39

James Harding

Until 7 o'clock that night.

9:51

Chris Stewart

7:00 to 7:00. Those are long hours.

9:51

James Harding

Yeah. On Saturday, I worked close.

9:56

Chris Stewart

You what?

9:57

James Harding

On Saturday, I worked till close.

9:57

Chris Stewart

On Saturday, you worked where?

9:57

James Harding

At 7:00 AM in the morning till 9:00 PM at night.

9:58

Chris Stewart

I'm sorry. Where did you go at night?

10:05

James Harding

I started working at 7 o'clock in the morning.

10:08

Chris Stewart

Right.

10:08

James Harding

And get off at 12:00 o'clock at night.

10:08

Chris Stewart

What did you say you did on Saturdays?

10:15

James Harding

I ride a bicycle. I used to be a delivery boy.

10:24

Chris Stewart

Uh-huh. Were you going to school now at this time too?

10:24

James Harding

Ma'am?

10:25

Chris Stewart

Were you going to school?

10:27

James Harding

Yes, ma'am, right on West Street.

10:28

Chris Stewart

Uh-huh, at West Street.

10:31

James Harding

Yes.

10:32

Chris Stewart

Yeah, West Street High School.

10:33

James Harding

I was a freshman there.

10:35

Chris Stewart

Uh-huh. What do you remember about school?

10:36

James Harding

The principal was named JT Barber.

10:44

Chris Stewart

JT Barber, that was the principal?

10:56

James Harding

Yes, ma'am. I miss some of my teachers.

10:56

Chris Stewart

Huh?

10:56

James Harding

I miss some of my teachers.

10:56

Chris Stewart

Uh-huh.

10:56

James Harding

Yeah, but all my teachers are dead now.

10:56

Chris Stewart

What do you remember about your teachers?

10:59

James Harding

I mean, they teach me.

11:02

Chris Stewart

How would they do that?

11:04

James Harding

I learned. They teach me how to learn, how to read and write.

11:06

Chris Stewart

Yeah, yeah.

11:11

James Harding

All of them are dead now.

11:11

Chris Stewart

Yeah, yeah. How long was the school year?

11:20

James Harding

Ma'am?

11:21

Chris Stewart

How long was the school year at West Street?

11:23

James Harding

School was around before I was born.

11:33

Chris Stewart

How long was the school year? When did you start school? Did you start it—

11:33

James Harding

At about six or seven years old.

11:35

Chris Stewart

Okay. How did the teachers discipline students?

11:43

James Harding

Ma'am?

11:45

Chris Stewart

How did the teachers discipline the students?

11:46

James Harding

They was nice.

11:50

Chris Stewart

How did they discipline you though? When you did something wrong.

11:50

James Harding

They whooped me.

11:52

Chris Stewart

They whooped ya.

11:54

James Harding

Then you go home and get another whooping.

11:56

Chris Stewart

Yep. Yeah.

11:58

James Harding

I always been a good boy.

11:58

Chris Stewart

Yeah, yeah. Were your parents involved in your schooling? Did they go to parent meetings?

12:10

James Harding

No. Yeah, my mother would go it though.

12:16

Chris Stewart

Yeah, your mother would go?

12:20

James Harding

Mm-hmm. In fact, when I was going to school they didn't have parent meetings.

12:26

Chris Stewart

Hmm?

12:31

James Harding

When I was going to school they ain't had no parent meetings.

12:31

Chris Stewart

They didn't have any parents meetings.

12:31

James Harding

No ma'am.

12:31

Chris Stewart

I see. Would the teachers ever come visit parents?

12:34

James Harding

No ma'am. The teachers were [indistinct 00:12:43] my older sister.

12:36

Chris Stewart

Your oldest sister was a teacher?

12:46

James Harding

No ma'am.

12:48

Chris Stewart

What did you say?

12:48

James Harding

The teachers used to [indistinct 00:12:56] see her.

12:56

Chris Stewart

Oh, I see that. The teacher would ask—

12:56

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

12:56

Chris Stewart

What kinds of activities besides schoolwork did—

13:02

James Harding

Ma'am?

13:05

Chris Stewart

What kinds of activities besides school, like you said the actual learning, did you do at West Street? Was there any sports or any extracurricular activities?

13:06

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

13:15

Chris Stewart

Like what?

13:16

James Harding

Played ball.

13:17

Chris Stewart

Did you play baseball?

13:19

James Harding

Yes ma'am. I never played no football.

13:20

Chris Stewart

Were you on the school baseball team?

13:24

James Harding

Yes ma'am. I used to play the whole second base.

13:25

Chris Stewart

You played second base?

13:32

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

13:33

Chris Stewart

You must have been a quick guy then. I know only quick guys play second base.

13:34

James Harding

You out there and a man throw that ball to me and I say, "Where are you going? You out."

13:39

Chris Stewart

You're out. Did the baseball team play other teams in the area?

13:54

James Harding

Yes ma'am. We had leagues. In fact, [indistinct 00:14:01] we played Dover.

14:00

Chris Stewart

You played Dover?

14:03

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

14:03

Chris Stewart

What other teams did you play?

14:03

James Harding

Barnwell.

14:04

Chris Stewart

Fort Barnwell?

14:04

James Harding

Yes ma'am. I'm gonna tell you the truth.

14:04

Chris Stewart

Where?

14:13

James Harding

I didn't tell you the truth. Some men played [indistinct 00:14:16].

14:13

Chris Stewart

Did you ever go to Havelock?

14:17

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

14:19

Chris Stewart

Would you go, say as far as Greenville or was that too far?

14:19

James Harding

No, we didn't go to Greenville.

14:24

Chris Stewart

What was the name of your baseball team?

14:31

James Harding

New Bern baseball team. New Bern baseball team.

14:32

Chris Stewart

Mm-hmm. Was this just kids from West Street or was it from New Bern in general?

14:37

James Harding

New Bern.

14:45

Chris Stewart

Was it just Black kids from New Bern?

14:47

James Harding

Ma'am?

14:48

Chris Stewart

Was it just Black kids from New Bern?

14:49

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

14:51

Chris Stewart

Okay. Did any — I'm sorry, go ahead.

14:53

James Harding

We ain't never been to school with Whites yet.

14:57

Chris Stewart

Right.

14:59

James Harding

[indistinct 00:15:02] when I was going because Colored kids was on.

14:59

Chris Stewart

Did any scouts from the old Negro Leagues ever come and check you out?

15:09

James Harding

What you talking about, Boy Scouts?

15:12

Chris Stewart

No, I'm talking about scouts from the Negro Leagues. From Negro League Baseball.

15:15

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

15:20

Chris Stewart

Do you remember ever seeing any baseball teams from the Negro League Baseball?

15:21

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

15:25

Chris Stewart

When?

15:26

James Harding

I saw one the other day. He was down here.

15:28

Chris Stewart

Did you ever go see anybody play?

15:35

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

15:36

Chris Stewart

When you were young?

15:37

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

15:38

Chris Stewart

Where would they play?

15:40

James Harding

Kafer Park.

15:42

Chris Stewart

What park?

15:42

James Harding

Kafer Park on George Street.

15:44

Chris Stewart

On George Street.

15:47

James Harding

You know before you get to the center?

15:52

Chris Stewart

Mm-hmm. Did you ever want to be a professional baseball player?

15:54

James Harding

Mm-hmm.

15:59

Chris Stewart

Did you ever want to be a professional baseball player?

16:00

James Harding

I didn't want to be, but I got to be.

16:02

Chris Stewart

Huh?

16:05

James Harding

I didn't want to be.

16:05

Chris Stewart

You didn't want to be?

16:09

James Harding

No ma'am.

16:10

Chris Stewart

But?

16:11

James Harding

But they got me.

16:11

Chris Stewart

They got ya?

16:13

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

16:14

Chris Stewart

Did you play baseball after high school?

16:15

James Harding

I ain't never been in high school.

16:17

Chris Stewart

Huh?

16:17

James Harding

I don't remember going to school through —excuse me, I left after middle school.

16:17

Chris Stewart

You went to?

16:17

James Harding

I didn't go to high school.

16:17

Chris Stewart

Oh, okay.

16:17

James Harding

I went to elementary school.

16:17

Chris Stewart

At West Street.

16:34

James Harding

On West Street.

16:34

Chris Stewart

After you were done with school or after you were done did you play baseball afterwards though? When you weren't in school anymore?

16:36

James Harding

I was 21 years old when I stopped playing ball.

16:46

Chris Stewart

When you stopped?

16:47

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

16:47

Chris Stewart

Really? How come you stopped?

16:47

James Harding

Well, I got too old I reckon.

16:47

Chris Stewart

Got too old, huh?

16:47

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

16:47

Chris Stewart

Oh no.

16:47

James Harding

All the boys I played with is dead.

16:47

Chris Stewart

Yeah.

16:47

James Harding

I'm the only left.

16:47

Chris Stewart

Yeah.

16:47

James Harding

That's how [indistinct 00:17:13] dead.

16:47

Chris Stewart

Yeah. I've heard of a baseball team called The Doctor Peppers, have you heard of that team?

17:15

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

17:18

Chris Stewart

Where have you heard of that team?

17:18

James Harding

I went and seen them boys play.

17:18

Chris Stewart

Where were they from?

17:18

James Harding

I forget now.

17:18

Chris Stewart

You don't know?

17:18

James Harding

I did but I forgot now.

17:18

Chris Stewart

Yeah. Do you remember a fire?

17:18

James Harding

Yes ma'am. I was 12 years old when the fire was.

17:18

Chris Stewart

Right. Can you tell me about it and what you remember?

17:18

James Harding

Right there on George Street. There was a boy named George — Colored people were near there.

17:18

Chris Stewart

Colored people?

17:18

James Harding

Yeah. [indistinct 00:18:11] onto him. Right there, where the sun at now, car places was there.

17:18

Chris Stewart

Do you know how it started?

18:21

James Harding

Yes ma'am. It was a lady named — I forget the lady name now, but anyhow she was washing. Washing clothes.

18:22

Chris Stewart

Washing clothes.

18:33

James Harding

And that's when it boiled — you put the pot outdoor and then it falls down and boil it. Yeah, it happened in March. And the wind start blowing. And then, [indistinct 00:18:48]. Yes ma'am, I remember that fire.

18:42

Chris Stewart

Did your house get burned?

19:08

James Harding

No ma'am. The fire didn't go that far.

19:10

Chris Stewart

The fire didn't go that far. Do you know people whose houses got burned?

19:17

James Harding

Mm-hmm.

19:19

Chris Stewart

What did they do? What did they do when they didn't have a place to live?

19:20

James Harding

They put up tents for people.

19:24

Chris Stewart

Yeah, but where would they put them up?

19:30

James Harding

One on George Street and Bern Street or around in that neighborhood.

19:31

Chris Stewart

Yeah.

19:31

James Harding

Called it Tent City.

19:31

Chris Stewart

Called it Tent City.

19:31

James Harding

Mm-hmm.

19:31

Chris Stewart

How long were the tents up before people got new houses? How long were the tents up before people got new houses?

19:50

James Harding

Dr. [indistinct 00:20:02], he bought a house on George Street and Dr. Fisher bought a house on George Street. They bought this place and built.

20:02

Chris Stewart

And they built.

20:06

James Harding

Mm-hmm.

20:08

Chris Stewart

It sounds like George Street was a big business street.

20:08

James Harding

Yeah, it was around that time. Main Street too.

20:11

Chris Stewart

And what?

20:13

James Harding

Bern Street.

20:13

Chris Stewart

And Bern Street. George Street and Bern Street were big business streets?

20:21

James Harding

Mm-hmm.

20:25

Chris Stewart

Is that where Black folks could go to buy things?

20:25

James Harding

Well, what do you mean? Buying groceries or something like that?

20:33

Chris Stewart

Yeah.

20:33

James Harding

Yeah. Yeah they can go there to buy their groceries.

20:33

Chris Stewart

What about how long did it take before—

20:50

James Harding

Ma'am?

20:52

Chris Stewart

How long did it take before everybody got new houses or got houses?

20:53

James Harding

It didn't take that long.

21:00

Chris Stewart

It didn't take long?

21:00

James Harding

No ma'am.

21:01

Chris Stewart

Really? Did people who weren't—

21:01

James Harding

Ma'am?

21:08

Chris Stewart

Did people who weren't touched by the fire, did they help out other people?

21:08

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

21:12

Chris Stewart

How did they do that?

21:27

James Harding

I donated some.

21:27

Chris Stewart

You donated some.

21:27

James Harding

Mm-hmm. Of course, I wasn't but a kid but I donated [indistinct 00:21:27] or something like that or I give them five cents.

21:27

Chris Stewart

You did?

21:27

James Harding

Yeah.

21:27

Chris Stewart

Wow. Wow. How else would people help the people who lost their homes? How else would they help them besides donating money?

21:27

James Harding

Leave them alone. [indistinct 00:21:50].

21:40

Chris Stewart

Yeah. Did you ever go over to James City?

22:00

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

22:02

Chris Stewart

What was over in James City?

22:03

James Harding

It used to be a beach store there?

22:05

Chris Stewart

A beach?

22:08

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

22:12

Chris Stewart

Where was the beach?

22:12

James Harding

I reckon now [indistinct 00:22:13]. We used to go down there on Sunday's and all of us playing ball were there.

22:12

Chris Stewart

You could play ball over there too?

22:26

James Harding

They play ball over there.

22:27

Chris Stewart

Yeah.

22:27

James Harding

Bridgeton boys played with us.

22:27

Chris Stewart

Oh yeah? Yeah? Who was better?

22:34

James Harding

I mean, James City boys and Bridgeton boys.

22:38

Chris Stewart

Huh?

22:38

James Harding

They would play and call it Bridgeton.

22:38

Chris Stewart

They could call?

22:38

James Harding

Bridgeton.

22:38

Chris Stewart

Oh, okay. Bridgeton.

22:38

James Harding

Mm-hmm.

22:53

Chris Stewart

Who was the better baseball team?

22:58

James Harding

Ma'am?

22:59

Chris Stewart

Who was the better baseball team?

23:01

James Harding

I don't know, to tell you the truth.

23:02

Chris Stewart

Huh?

23:03

James Harding

I don't know, to tell you the truth.

23:03

Chris Stewart

I thought for sure you'd tell me that you were on the better baseball team, Mr. Harding.

23:09

James Harding

I don't know if I was better than them or not.

23:13

Chris Stewart

What was your batting average?

23:17

James Harding

[indistinct 00:23:23]. Pardon me?

23:24

Chris Stewart

What was your batting average?

23:25

James Harding

You talking about [indistinct 00:23:28]?

23:26

Chris Stewart

Huh?

23:26

James Harding

You talking [indistinct 00:23:30]?

23:30

Chris Stewart

When you were playing ball.

23:30

James Harding

Oh. We always play [indistinct 00:23:38] down there through — what's the name of that place? Main Street.

23:32

Chris Stewart

Mm-hmm.

23:43

James Harding

A baseball club.

23:54

Chris Stewart

A baseball club?

23:55

James Harding

Mm-hmm.

23:55

Chris Stewart

Yeah.

23:56

James Harding

I went and played ball. I hit the ball as far as I could and made contact.

23:59

Chris Stewart

Mm-hmm.

24:02

James Harding

I was all right. [indistinct 00:24:03] ball and I don't know who car parked it was. It fell out and after the game over with he said, "You hit that ball in that sun." When we went back home we got a big old sack, a clothes sack, filled it full of corn.

24:03

Chris Stewart

Wow. Wow.

24:40

James Harding

[indistinct 00:24:44] she cooked for — made stew corn, fried corn, boil corn.

24:45

Chris Stewart

Wow.

24:45

James Harding

Baked corn.

24:45

Chris Stewart

All different kinds of corn. Sir, did you get married?

24:59

James Harding

Yeah, that's why I come down here.

25:00

Chris Stewart

Huh?

25:00

James Harding

Yeah, that's why I come down here.

25:00

Chris Stewart

Yeah, you married a girl from here?

25:06

James Harding

Mm-hmm.

25:08

Chris Stewart

Did you move to this area then, when you got married?

25:09

James Harding

Yes ma'am, that was my plan.

25:11

Chris Stewart

What kind of work did you do then?

25:15

James Harding

What do you mean?

25:16

Chris Stewart

Once you got married.

25:18

James Harding

I just worked for mowing for people.

25:22

Chris Stewart

You worked doing what for people?

25:24

James Harding

Mowing. Cut grass and grow the flowers.

25:26

Chris Stewart

You were — I'm sorry.

25:29

James Harding

I used to cut grass and went in front and [indistinct 00:25:34].

25:29

Chris Stewart

I see. Was your wife working?

25:33

James Harding

Yeah, she was working.

25:34

Chris Stewart

What kind of work would she do?

25:39

James Harding

No, she wasn't working.

25:39

Chris Stewart

She wasn't.

25:51

James Harding

No.

25:51

Chris Stewart

How did you meet her?

25:51

James Harding

Right there on George Street.

25:51

Chris Stewart

Huh?

25:51

James Harding

Right there on George Street [indistinct 00:25:58].

25:51

Chris Stewart

I'm having a hard time hearing you sir, because it's kind of—

25:59

James Harding

Right there on George Street. [indistinct 00:26:04].

26:01

Chris Stewart

Oh, I see. How long did you court?

26:06

James Harding

About 10, 12 years.

26:13

Chris Stewart

You courted a long time.

26:13

James Harding

Mm-hmm.

26:13

Chris Stewart

How come you courted so long before you got married?

26:13

James Harding

Might not have been that long.

26:15

Chris Stewart

Might not, huh?

26:15

James Harding

No ma'am. [indistinct 00:26:25] she got burn up.

26:19

Chris Stewart

Oh, you lost your girlfriend in New Bern.

26:26

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

26:29

Chris Stewart

Did she get burned in the fire or was this later?

26:33

James Harding

Yes ma'am, her house got burned.

26:35

Chris Stewart

Really?

26:38

James Harding

Mm-hmm.

26:39

Chris Stewart

Did she die then?

26:40

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

26:41

Chris Stewart

That must have been hard.

26:42

James Harding

My son set the house on fire.

26:48

Chris Stewart

Your son set the house on fire?

26:49

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

26:53

Chris Stewart

How come?

26:53

James Harding

Because he was mad at her. He wasn't right. He wasn't right brain.

26:53

Chris Stewart

Really? Where did you live in this area?

27:05

James Harding

On Miller Street [indistinct 00:27:13].

27:10

Chris Stewart

When you moved out here, where did you live?

27:16

James Harding

On the road here.

27:18

Chris Stewart

Have you always lived there when you moved here with your wife?

27:21

James Harding

Yeah, that's the first town I been, right here. The first time.

27:28

Chris Stewart

When you got married, where did you live?

27:34

James Harding

Where I'm at now?

27:38

Chris Stewart

When you got married.

27:39

James Harding

I lived on the road here. On this road.

27:41

Chris Stewart

Did you ever do any farming?

27:46

James Harding

No.

27:48

Chris Stewart

No. You just were hauling things for people? That's what kind of work you'd do?

27:48

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

27:54

Chris Stewart

Like flour and what else?

27:55

James Harding

I worked in a flower.

27:56

Chris Stewart

You worked in a flour—

28:02

James Harding

Mm-hmm, shop. [indistinct 00:28:14], deliver.

28:02

Chris Stewart

I'm sorry, you worked with what?

28:13

James Harding

I set up flowers for people.

28:14

Chris Stewart

You carried flour for people?

28:14

James Harding

I set up flowers. Set up in the ground.

28:14

Chris Stewart

Oh, okay.

28:14

James Harding

And a pot.

28:14

Chris Stewart

Did you do that all your life or did you do other kinds of work?

28:29

James Harding

No, my [indistinct 00:28:36].

28:32

Chris Stewart

It was what?

28:43

James Harding

I think it was an ice bin.

28:43

Chris Stewart

An ice?

28:43

James Harding

[indistinct 00:28:48] plant.

28:43

Chris Stewart

Plant?

28:43

James Harding

Yeah, plant ice cream and then she had asthma.

28:43

Chris Stewart

She had asthma?

28:43

James Harding

I did.

28:43

Chris Stewart

You did?

28:43

James Harding

Mm-hmm. When that I worked in a [indistinct 00:29:09] plant.

28:43

Chris Stewart

You worked in a — what kind of plant?

29:09

James Harding

[indistinct 00:29:12] plant.

29:12

Chris Stewart

Crab?

29:12

James Harding

Dry cleaning.

29:12

Chris Stewart

Dry cleaning?

29:12

James Harding

They press the clothes and something like that.

29:13

Chris Stewart

In [indistinct 00:29:19] City?

29:18

James Harding

No ma'am, in New Bern.

29:19

Chris Stewart

In New Bern?

29:19

James Harding

Yeah, [indistinct 00:29:25].

29:19

Chris Stewart

What was the name of the dry cleaning place?

29:19

James Harding

[indistinct 00:29:26] Dry Cleaning.

29:19

Chris Stewart

Okay. When were you working for the WPA?

29:19

James Harding

That where I got the job at. The ice plant [indistinct 00:29:26].

29:19

Chris Stewart

That was before you got the job at the dry cleaners?

29:19

James Harding

Mm-hmm.

29:25

Chris Stewart

And what did you say you did? You were building buildings for the WPA?

29:49

James Harding

I was a brick mason.

29:53

Chris Stewart

You were a brick mason?

29:56

James Harding

No, I worked with the brick mason.

29:56

Chris Stewart

You worked with the brick mason?

29:58

James Harding

Mm-hmm.

30:01

Chris Stewart

How long did you work for the WPA?

30:01

James Harding

I wish I had [indistinct 00:30:12].

30:11

Chris Stewart

Okay. Was that good work? How much did you get paid?

30:12

James Harding

More than [indistinct 00:30:20]. They wasn't paying [indistinct 00:30:25].

30:17

Chris Stewart

What do you think was the best job you had?

30:27

James Harding

The best job I had was cutting meat.

30:40

Chris Stewart

Was cutting meat.

30:42

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

30:42

Chris Stewart

And that was when you were very young, wasn't it?

30:42

James Harding

Yes ma'am, it was. I used to shine shoes.

30:42

Chris Stewart

You shined shoes for a while? Did you shine them in the barber shop?

30:46

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

30:50

Chris Stewart

Mm-hmm. Did you get good money for that?

30:51

James Harding

Yeah, a tip.

30:55

Chris Stewart

Yeah.

30:55

James Harding

It wasn't paying nothing to work there. You had to make it all off your tips.

30:58

Chris Stewart

Right. Did you get good tips?

31:06

James Harding

Yes ma'am. I used to work to the New Bern Hotel.

31:07

Chris Stewart

Oh, you did? How long did you work there?

31:13

James Harding

Until they went out of business.

31:13

Chris Stewart

So you worked there a long time.

31:14

James Harding

Yes ma'am. I was a bellboy. You know where the [indistinct 00:31:28] at downtown?

31:14

Chris Stewart

The what?

31:14

James Harding

The [indistinct 00:31:32] and Broil downtown?

31:14

Chris Stewart

Mm-hmm.

31:14

James Harding

[indistinct 00:31:40].

31:14

Chris Stewart

Mr. Harding, do you remember seeing Jim Crow signs?

31:50

James Harding

Ma'am?

31:52

Chris Stewart

Jim Crow signs?

31:53

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

31:59

Chris Stewart

Where did you see them?

31:59

James Harding

[indistinct 00:32:05] on the ferry. I couldn't tell you where honestly.

32:12

Chris Stewart

Huh?

32:28

James Harding

I used to work the river [indistinct 00:32:35].

32:34

Chris Stewart

Yeah.

32:34

James Harding

[indistinct 00:32:35], the ferry.

32:34

Chris Stewart

The ferry?

32:34

James Harding

The ferry. [indistinct 00:32:35] the slave market over there.

32:34

Chris Stewart

The slave market was over there.

32:34

James Harding

Mm-hmm, they sold Colored people.

32:34

Chris Stewart

Was this when you were growing up? No, the slave market was older.

32:36

James Harding

Yeah, that been a long time ago.

32:37

Chris Stewart

Right. What was there?

32:42

James Harding

Wasn't nothing there.

32:46

Chris Stewart

Yeah, but what about when you were growing up? Did you see signs that said-

32:48

James Harding

No ma'am.

32:53

Chris Stewart

Not in New Bern, there weren't signs that—

32:55

James Harding

No ma'am. See, I grew up in New Bern and I ain't seen no—

32:56

Chris Stewart

At drinking fountains or on the buses or in the restaurants?

33:04

James Harding

Oh, yes ma'am.

33:07

Chris Stewart

What were they?

33:08

James Harding

Signs used to be on Broad Street at a place called The Five Points.

33:08

Chris Stewart

Five Points.

33:20

James Harding

The one downtown is called [indistinct 00:33:39] and Broil.

33:39

Chris Stewart

Did you ever see anybody break the rules? Did you ever see anybody drink out of the White water fountain?

33:39

James Harding

Yes ma'am. They was White, but I didn't see any Colored people.

33:47

Chris Stewart

You didn't?

33:47

James Harding

I seen White, but I ain't seen any Colored. In fact, I had drunk out of it.

33:47

Chris Stewart

You had what?

33:47

James Harding

Drunk out the fountain.

33:47

Chris Stewart

Yeah?

33:47

James Harding

See now, me and him is good friends, White fella, me and him is real tight.

33:47

Chris Stewart

Yeah.

34:02

James Harding

I used to go around there and see him. On Sunday, [indistinct 00:34:26].

34:12

Chris Stewart

Yeah. You and this friend both did?

34:30

James Harding

Me.

34:32

Chris Stewart

You and your White friend?

34:32

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

34:35

Chris Stewart

Did anybody see it?

34:39

James Harding

Ma'am?

34:40

Chris Stewart

Did anybody see you?

34:41

James Harding

That was still before I was born. That still was before you was born.

34:41

Chris Stewart

Mm-hmm.

34:41

James Harding

It still been on a long time. I used to wait and play [indistinct 00:34:58] cross-country club.

34:41

Chris Stewart

Who worked at the country club? What did you do there?

35:01

James Harding

Make drinks.

35:01

Chris Stewart

You made drinks. You were a bartender.

35:03

James Harding

Mm-hmm.

35:05

Chris Stewart

How did the White folks treat you at the country club?

35:05

James Harding

Fine. Fine, fine, fine.

35:07

Chris Stewart

Were there any times when they didn't treat you fine?

35:08

James Harding

No ma'am.

35:11

Chris Stewart

Did you get good tips?

35:12

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

35:14

Chris Stewart

How much would you make in tips there?

35:18

James Harding

I remember one night I made about 100 and something dollars.

35:21

Chris Stewart

You did? You must have been making good drinks. Huh?

35:29

James Harding

A White fella how to make a mixed drink.

35:37

Chris Stewart

Yeah. He taught you how, huh?

35:44

James Harding

Yeah.

35:45

Chris Stewart

Sir, was there any time that you felt that somebody treated you like you weren't as good as they were?

35:47

James Harding

Ma'am?

35:52

Chris Stewart

Is there any time throughout your life that you felt like somebody treated you—

35:55

James Harding

No ma'am.

35:58

Chris Stewart

— as if they weren't as good as you?

35:59

James Harding

No ma'am.

36:02

Chris Stewart

Yeah? You didn't feel at any time that anybody treated you badly?

36:05

James Harding

No. No, I treated them good, they treated me good.

36:11

Chris Stewart

Is that how it worked?

36:11

James Harding

Yeah.

36:12

Chris Stewart

Did it work that way all the time or were there times—

36:13

James Harding

All the time.

36:15

Chris Stewart

— when it didn't work that way?

36:20

James Harding

All the time.

36:20

Chris Stewart

Mm-hmm.

36:21

James Harding

The people from around here was all the time.

36:21

Chris Stewart

What about at your jobs, did it work that way at your jobs?

36:24

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

36:26

Chris Stewart

Mm-hmm.

36:26

James Harding

[indistinct 00:36:32] he worked. As a matter of fact [indistinct 00:36:40]. [indistinct 00:36:45] about two or three months. Before I seen the ball.

36:26

Chris Stewart

Mm-hmm. Really?

36:26

James Harding

Mm-hmm.

36:26

Chris Stewart

Wow.

36:26

James Harding

[indistinct 00:37:04].

36:26

Chris Stewart

It sounds like you did bunch of different things. You worked in a bunch of different kinds of jobs.

37:14

James Harding

Yeah, I have, but I worked [indistinct 00:37:23]. I could retire [indistinct 00:37:24] time or a place. [indistinct 00:37:36].

37:21

Chris Stewart

You retired from where? Oil [indistinct 00:37:40]?

37:36

James Harding

[indistinct 00:37:43]. You understand what I'm saying?

37:42

Chris Stewart

Oh, okay. Yeah, you retired from that place?

37:46

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

37:47

Chris Stewart

Plus you worked at the country club. Where else—

37:47

James Harding

See, I worked at the country club nights.

37:47

Chris Stewart

How long did you work at the oil place?

37:47

James Harding

About — I don't know, that's where I retired at.

37:47

Chris Stewart

That's where you retired. So you worked there for a long time?

37:47

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

37:47

Chris Stewart

How did it affect your asthma?

37:47

James Harding

Well, the doctor told me stop working at the plant. The paper and ice plant. Your job [indistinct 00:37:49]. It wasn't no gas or nothing around here.

37:47

Chris Stewart

You also said that you worked at the dry cleaning place too, right?

37:49

James Harding

Yes ma'am. The doctors told me to [indistinct 00:39:09].

37:49

Chris Stewart

Did the doctor help you get the job there?

37:49

James Harding

No. I got the job there myself.

37:49

Chris Stewart

You did.

37:49

James Harding

I said the doctor took me away from there. Told me not to work there no more.

37:49

Chris Stewart

Mm-hmm.

37:49

James Harding

I worked at the ice plant and the doctor told me leave the ice plant. Then I started working the dry cleaners then. The doctor told me [indistinct 00:39:42].

37:49

Chris Stewart

How long were you married to your wife?

37:49

James Harding

I think we been married about nine years.

37:56

Chris Stewart

Nine years?

37:56

James Harding

Mm-hmm.

39:39

Chris Stewart

Did you get divorced?

39:39

James Harding

I never been married. I ain't never been married before. He did.

40:04

Chris Stewart

No, no, no. When did you marry her?

40:05

James Harding

I married her-

40:09

Chris Stewart

How old were you?

40:12

James Harding

I was about 70.

40:13

Chris Stewart

You were about how old?

40:22

James Harding

About 70.

40:24

Chris Stewart

70?

40:24

James Harding

Mm-hmm.

40:24

Chris Stewart

Were you married before then?

40:27

James Harding

No ma'am [indistinct 00:40:31].

40:28

Chris Stewart

How come you waited so long to get married?

40:30

James Harding

I don't know.

40:31

Chris Stewart

Huh? How come you didn't get married earlier?

40:35

James Harding

I don't know.

40:36

Chris Stewart

Did you have girlfriends?

40:36

James Harding

Oh yeah, I had plenty of them.

40:36

Chris Stewart

Oh, I bet. I bet. But you never got married?

40:41

James Harding

No ma'am. The girl I would have married, but she got burned up.

40:44

Chris Stewart

Yeah.

40:44

James Harding

Then she come along.

40:44

Chris Stewart

Yeah.

40:44

James Harding

I met her.

40:44

Chris Stewart

You would have, huh?

40:44

James Harding

Yes ma'am, I would have married her.

40:44

Chris Stewart

Yeah.

40:44

James Harding

But after she got burned then I married this one.

40:45

Chris Stewart

Yeah, but you waited an awful long time to get married.

41:06

James Harding

No I didn't. I don't think that's long.

41:08

Chris Stewart

Did you ever have any kids?

41:12

James Harding

No ma'am. Not by her.

41:13

Chris Stewart

Right. Do you have any kids by anybody else?

41:13

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

41:21

Chris Stewart

Mm-hmm. How many kids do you have?

41:23

James Harding

I've got two kids [indistinct 00:41:40].

41:39

Chris Stewart

Two kids?

41:39

James Harding

[indistinct 00:41:40].

41:39

Chris Stewart

Sir, are there any questions that I didn't ask you that you wanted me to ask you about?

41:39

James Harding

No, I told you about the old times.

41:43

Chris Stewart

Huh?

41:43

James Harding

I done told you about the old times.

41:44

Chris Stewart

Right. Is there anything else you'd like to tell me about the old time that I didn't ask you about?

41:49

James Harding

No. I say I remember the horse and buggy.

41:53

Chris Stewart

Yeah, you remember horse and buggy. Do you remember the wooden bridge between James City and New Bern?

42:01

James Harding

Yes ma'am.

42:05

Chris Stewart

Over the river?

42:07

James Harding

Yes ma'am. [indistinct 00:42:09] Bridge, James City Bridge.

42:07

Chris Stewart

Yeah. Yeah. Was it a scary bridge?

42:15

James Harding

Yeah, [indistinct 00:42:22] bones. Every time it rolls over it, [indistinct 00:42:26]. [indistinct 00:42:32] sound.

42:16

Chris Stewart

Yeah. Okay then sir.

42:16

James Harding

James City Bridge and [indistinct 00:42:40] and a new bridge.

42:16

Chris Stewart

I'll tell you what I need to do, sir. Before we finish here, Ms. Baker wants us to finish. We need to get your permission —

42:52

James Harding interview recording, 1993 August 06

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1. James Harding administrative file, 1993

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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James Harding interview recording, 1993 August 06

Transcript

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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