Velma Payne interview recording, 1993 August 04
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Transcript
Transcripts may contain inaccuracies.
Velma J. Arkward Payne | The thing I vividly remember is that when we were embarking from—where did we leave from? New York, I guess. Well, anyway, they told us that we were never South before and to be leery of—we said, "Of what?" And so after we arrived in Georgia, we had a chance to go in town, she said, "Well, I'll have to tell you girls who have never been South that when you're going to town you're going to have to do certain things." We said, "Oh, like what?" "Sit on the back of the bus." I said, "I'm not sitting on the back of any bus," and stuff like that. Oh, we thought it was such a joke, "Oh, sure. Right." You hear about it, but you didn't see it. Well, when we got there and got on that bus, well, these people were so mean. We went in the back of the bus, but never to return to town again. I would never. I said, "That's it for me. Forget it." | 0:01 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And then after we landed in Scotland and we were stationed in England, Birmingham, and the White soldiers had been there before and had said that all Black people have monkey tails and stuff like that. I thought that was the most disgusting thing. But since you were in a contingent, unless you went to town, you didn't really have to come up across this. | 0:53 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I guess it was an all Black contingent? | 1:16 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | All Black, yeah. But see, we heard about it, we read about it. We saw the news all how atrocious everything was and man's inhumanity to man, which I just—well, anyway, but only when you see it yourself—you can tell me or I can tell you, but until you see it yourself and feel it. And these people have to be born and bred into that, to me. I hurt for these people. I guess my people too. Because, see, my father was born in Virginia but my grandfather is from Germany. So he came over and he stayed and he married my grandmother in Virginia. And my father was from Virginia and we used to go to Virginia all the time. I loved going down to Virginia because I didn't see any of this, because like I said, it was all Black and it was rural. | 1:17 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And it was just fun making ice cream and going into town and, "Oh, I know you're Walter's child. You look just Walter—" and stuff like that. All the time we went down there, numerous times, I never really encountered anything that would bother me because my father and them lived very well. They weren't poor, so to speak. It was pretty nice. At least I thought so and everything. And my mother, she would come a couple of times and my grandfather wanted to build her a house there but my mother said no. She didn't want her children raised down South because probably she saw it more than I did. And my father wouldn't let Mother come too often he said, "Because you'll have everybody down here mention Mother," because Mother was— | 2:13 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Okay, on Mother's side, my grandmother was born on Grove Street in Elizabeth, New Jersey. And her mother was born in Jersey and her people are from the [indistinct 00:03:15] Indians, if I can—my brother was older, my brother is dead now, but he used to tell me stuff and everything. So I don't know how—there's got to be some part from other parts, but that's all I know. But then as far as segregation, sure, we had it in the North too, but I think the difference was that you were allowed to talk back. We didn't have any Black and White theaters or Black and White schools or anything like that. And so if somebody said something to you if you wanted to you could slap them or slap—it wasn't—there weren't that many Black when I was young because we are talking about 60 years ago or better. There weren't that many Blacks. | 3:00 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | But everybody lived together because we lived right next to an Irish family. And I do remember when my children came along that a little Polish family lived next door and her mother asked me if my son could take her to school because she figured that something would happen maybe because they were White and we were Black. But my son didn't feel that way. He felt like, "Well, the guys are going to laugh at me because I have to take a girl to school," like that. He felt nothing like that. So really, I know there were instances. I don't really—at this point in time, I've been thinking and thinking and thinking of incidences which I can't dredge up for some strange reason. | 4:03 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | But there's an undercurrent still in the North more now than South because I find it very delightful down here. These people, they're wonderful. And I'm not looking to say, "Well, you're Black so you're not nice or you're White." I can't see that. People are people as far as I'm concerned and that's how it should be. But I don't know why it isn't there. And it's lovely here. I love it. I feel great. I just love it, just everything. | 4:50 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Can I ask you how you decided to move to Havelock from New Jersey? | 5:22 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Oh yeah, yeah. No, the funny part was because— Let's see now, when I was home—I have two sisters. Sometimes they can be a pain in the neck, as sisters can be. But they were just pushing me against the— It seemed like everything was closing in. And where I lived in the apartment, the guy downstairs owned it, an older man, well, he got sick and he went to the hospital. He got sugar diabetes and I know he had to go to a nursing home sooner or later. So then he had boys, the youngest son lived there. He had three sons and he was in his late twenties so he ran the house and everything. But then, see, the North is awful. You fear for your life up there and everything really, especially the elderly. And nobody cares anything about them. Down here they're really nice. | 5:24 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And then the kids, they used to—I liked living where I was living because the man downstairs, he was home every day and stuff. But after he went to the hospital, the boys never were there for weekends and I hated being in that house. I hated it. And I was getting so scary and stuff and everything. And then I found out later, after I had decided to move, that the boy, he might give the house up and then finding a place was like Pittsville. You'd pay six or $700 for a one-bedroom apartment. And it was roach—it was awful. So Ruth had moved here previously to this time and she's been here for years. So two years ago—and she kept saying, "Velma, you've got to come down. You've got to come down." So now one day I made up my mind to come down and the minute I landed in New Bern and Ruth picked me up and everything and beautiful country. I just fell in love with it right away. | 6:10 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | So she took me—I said, "What a pretty house you have" and stuff like that and everything. And I said, "Boy, Ruth," I said, "I could live here. This is nice." She said, "Yeah, why don't you move down? Why don't you move down?" and everything. See my children, one lives in New York and one lives in Jersey, two boys, so I said, "Well, I don't know." So I remember saying as we were riding down the street, because she 315 Webb and these little apartments, I said, "Oh, Ruth, I love it." I said, "I could live there." I said, "That's my—" I was teasing. So I came back again. I said, "Oh, I've got to go back down because it's nice." | 7:04 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | So I came back again. I said, "Ruth, those apartments, I'm getting one of those apartments over there," meaning these apartments. So she laughed. I said, "Keep an eye out." So she said, "Oh, Velma, somebody rented your apartment." We'd laugh and stuff. And then I came back, I said, "Ruth," I said, "I'm going to have to move." And she said, "Really?" I said, "Yes." So then after I had decided, which wasn't hard for me and nobody believed me, "You know darn good and well you're not going anyplace." I said, "Yes, I am." Everybody said, "Never having been in the South, she'll be back in two months," and blah, blah, blah. We were laughing. Then I sold everything I could sell rather than— I'm tired of the old furniture anyway. And then I really started the wheels rolling and then it took me a while to get here. But stressed out and everything, everybody saying, "Oh, at your age—" I said, "Well, people do retire and they—" It's so dumb and everything. | 7:42 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And they said, "Oh, you're a—" I said, "Yeah, because I'm not working anymore, that's for sure." We were laughing and joking. And then I got down here and I came the end of April, the very end of April. I was here one Friday. I got in on a Friday and then we were looking around. And then I was in this apartment the very next Friday. It was so funny and everything. I said, "Oh, I got an apartment and stuff." That's how I got down here. That's not an interesting story, but anyway. | 8:36 |
Rhonda Mawhood | No, I'm interested in why people would come here from the North, so— | 9:04 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Yeah, but I have met so many people who are here from Jersey, Jersey, Jersey. Oh no, I told Ruth, I says, "Well, Ruth, we have one thing to handle here." And she said, "What?" I said, "Now, I can't have all these people from Jersey moving down here where I live." Boy, she was laughing. Yeah, so it was nice. And my son is scheduled to come in this weekend. They've been here twice already. And everybody is saying, "Well, how come you see them more now than they did when they was home?" And they make more calls now. I don't know and everything. | 9:07 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Where do you know your friend Ruth from? | 9:38 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | I beg your pardon? | 9:40 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Where do you know your friend Ruth from? Have you been friends for a long time? | 9:40 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Oh, yeah, before we got married, before we had babies. Yeah, we grew up together or as far back as I can remember. Yeah, we were cool together. Yeah, as far back as I—and then I hadn't seen Ruth for a long time, I remember. And I had a son and then I met Ruth one day and we were both pregnant. I said, "Oh, we're both pregnant, Ruth." And then two months apart we had our children and they've been friends birth and everything. And it was so funny because I hadn't seen Ruth for maybe a couple years. But we always kept in touch, even back and forth, no matter what and everything. Then we said, "Oh, we're going to have our babies together." Big deal. | 9:44 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Yeah, I knew Ruth from—I knew her mother, everything. And I used to stay over her house 50 million times and stuff after I had separated from my husband. I had two kids and I went back home to my parents. And then Mother and Daddy, they were right there for everything. They had a lazy daughter, but it was nice. But back to—that's not the—So what else? I don't know. | 10:27 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Well, I'd like to ask you about—you said that your grandfather was from Germany and your grandmother was from Virginia? | 10:54 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Yeah, my grandfather was born in—was it Hamburg? Germany, and he migrated over and then he married my grandmother. She was from Virginia. | 10:58 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Is your grandmother White? | 11:14 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | No, my grandmother was part Indian. But see, I guess it's because everybody looks White. They all look White, you know how they can mix and everything. Because when I saw my grandmother, she had the long braids and everything. She looks just like my father who was—oh, I was going to show you a picture. | 11:15 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I can pause for a minute. | 11:38 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Yeah. | 11:38 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I'm sorry. I don't want to be a pain about this, but I just wanted to—because it's interesting to me that your grandfather was from Germany and you showed me his picture and he's, so-called, White. He's a White man. And then he married your grandmother who you said was Indian- | 11:42 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | At the beginning, he probably thought she was White anyway, but she wasn't. But she— | 11:59 |
Rhonda Mawhood | And your father, from his picture, it's hard to make these distinctions, but your father to me looks like an African American. | 12:00 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | No. | 12:07 |
Rhonda Mawhood | He does not?— | 12:07 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | No, Daddy didn't—nobody knew he was—he was Black. But you couldn't really tell. He did not look Black at all. Oh, I do remember this one time Daddy was at work, working. So Mother said she was going to go down and get his paycheck so she walked— Daddy was a mason, used to do sidewalks, making good money. And so Mother went down. So she came and she looked for her husband, my father. So they fired him because they didn't know he was Black until Mother came down there. So yeah, they fired him. Because they never asked what color he was because they just took it for granted. And Daddy just never thought about color. And so he got fired because they found out that he wasn't White. But I was young then. I didn't know the difference and stuff like that. | 12:11 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Do you remember a time ever when you were growing up that you started to think about the different colors of people in your own family? | 13:01 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | No. | 13:09 |
Rhonda Mawhood | No? Okay. | 13:10 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Because, see, no matter what, every Black family has millions of colors so it was just par for the course. Because your sisters could be dark like it was—I guess you never really thought of that. At least I didn't and stuff like that. My mother had four kids and stuff and we all looked alike, sort of, I guess. Nobody wants to look like each other and stuff but, no, I never thought of that. Mm-mm. Because when you're White, you're just White. See, but Black, you can have an array, "Well, I'll take this color, I'll take—" like that. But I don't think I ever really—let me see, how was it in school? Not bad. | 13:11 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Because I remember my friend, he was born in Reedsville, North Carolina, and I worked with him for 20 years. We worked at the Probation Department in Elizabeth, New Jersey. And he was always telling me that—like he said, "Did you do this or that?" some strange things they—I said, "No, we never did." All right, say food, for instance. We never ate Southern food with our family. I know my father was Southern but Mother did the cooking. I never had collard greens until I got grown or we never ate black eyed peas or—oh, it's good stuff too. And after I grew up and got married and stuff, "Oh man, I love this." And I guess that's why I have the highest cholesterol in the world today. | 13:56 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | But anyway, stuff like that, we just were totally so Northern. Oh, I know one incident too. I remember my grandmother, my grandmother died in 1950, but I remember her specifically telling mother one day and she said, "The reason why the Blacks up here don't have anything is because those Blacks from down South, they come up and they'll work for a quarter where we'll work for 50 cents," and stuff. I'm saying, "A quarter or 50 cents?" But she didn't mean it literally like that. | 14:44 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Was it your mother's mother or your father's mother? | 15:16 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | My mother's mother. My father's mother was still down South. As a matter of fact though, my grandmother, that's my father's mother, she came North and she went to college in East Orange but only because they thought she was White. See, so you— | 15:17 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Would your grandmother have said she was Indian or would she have said she was Black? | 15:34 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Oh no, on my mother's side, my grandma was from Indian. All I know is that on one side, she was from [indistinct 00:15:43] Indians. I don't know. My brother didn't know. He said there was another tribe too, but he said he was trying to look it up but he couldn't find it and stuff like that. | 15:37 |
Rhonda Mawhood | But your father's parents, did they live as White or did they live as what was then called Colored in Virginia? | 15:54 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Oh, I don't know. No, no, they were in a Black community—so I guess they—but then all my aunts and things had blue eyes and everything like that. But they were right there in the Black community because there were other communities with people who looked like that too, see, so it wasn't a big thing. But I think it was in the one community. Because when I think back, I don't really think I saw many White people but they would look White like my grandparents, stuff like that. That's why I say Bunky with Shannon, Shannon has a problem in school. | 16:02 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Your granddaughter? | 16:32 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Yeah, my granddaughter, because she's blonde haired, she's blue eyed. And she'll go right to school and say African American, Afro American. And the Blacks didn't want to accept her in the White so she has a problem. But she sticks up for her rights because her father, they have taught her, her mother, and her mother is White, her mother and father said, "You're not White or Black, you're a person." So Shannon embraces her—she knows what her heritage is. She's Polish, Irish, Afro American and whatever. But it doesn't bother her. She said, "Well, see, Dad," she said, "I don't have the problem. They have the problem. It's not a problem with me." But that's not going to hack it. So they taught her as best they could that, "You're a person," and stuff. | 16:33 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | But I know she has a problem because Shannon is another one who just looks totally White and everything. And she's so cute because I said, "I wonder how it is with her," because her family over in Brooklyn are all White and her family in Jersey are all Black. But she just loves everybody. See, Shannon, she doesn't care about this. Well, they taught her, "Forget it." I remember when she was younger and going to school, when they had the parent teachers meeting, one meeting, her mother would go and the next meeting her father, back and forth like that because maybe Bunky was working late or whatever it was, Douglas. | 17:15 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | But anyway, she went to school this day and she was saying that they had to try to make a family tree and stuff like that. And she kept telling teacher, "No," she goes, "I'm Afro American, I'm Polish and I'm Irish." And the teacher says, "Sure." So her father came in. Now, my son, he's light, but he looks Black. You could tell. So she said, "Oh, I see." And the teacher was, "Yeah. Well, okay." Then when her mother comes in, "What is she talking about?" Because her mother is just White. Oh, those mixed children, they have a time, I'll tell you. | 17:54 |
Rhonda Mawhood | It's interesting how it changes over the years. That's why I was asking so much about your grandparents. Where did they live in Virginia? | 18:28 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Waynesboro, Virginia. | 18:33 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Waynesboro. Was that a—I'm sorry. I'm not familiar with Virginia. | 18:33 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | It was it what? | 18:34 |
Rhonda Mawhood | A town or more rural? | 18:41 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Well, I don't know if it was a town. See, they had a big house. I remember the porch going around—but then you had to go way down the road a piece to the store, the dirt road and stuff, and then another house would be way out so it wasn't—but it was close enough for people to gather in the country store. And, oh, I used to love that homemade ice cream out that wooden—oh, I used to want go down to the store just for the ice cream. It tasted so good and stuff. | 18:44 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Was that with your grandmother? | 19:09 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Yeah, my grandmother, yeah. And you'd have to churn it in the wooden—oh God, that was so good. | 19:11 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did you used to go to the country store? | 19:16 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Yeah, I told you we used to walk down road and they said, "I know that's Walter's child. It looks just like him." I'd say, "Yeah." Poor little kids going down the street and stuff, yeah. | 19:19 |
Rhonda Mawhood | It's interesting because you were saying that your grandparents always lived in Black communities. And it used to be, as you know, illegal for— | 19:30 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Whites and Blacks? | 19:39 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Whites and Blacks to live—it sounds like maybe your grandfather was quietly— | 19:40 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Well, that's what I'm saying because—in fact, he probably thought in the beginning that my grandmother was White but they were married legally and everything. And they lived there in that community. So whatever happened, that I don't know. But I do know that part. Oh, that was what— How did they do that? They sneaked. | 19:45 |
Rhonda Mawhood | It sounds like maybe your grandfather was passing for Black. | 20:03 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Well, if he did I don't know how in the world he could do it. But maybe he did or something like that to get over without getting—oh, he soon left for Ohio, very soon. Because as I'm named after my grandfather, but I remember my mother saying that he had divorced my grandmother and had left. He moved to Ohio, Youngstown. No, it was some part of Ohio. But I do remember that early in life that he did divorce her. | 20:05 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. So when you visited the South, you were mainly visiting your grandmother when you were a little girl? | 20:38 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Oh yeah, because they had separated by the time we were small and stuff. Oh yeah, early. Because let's see, Daddy—they had Aunt Gertrude, Aunt Evelyn, Uncle Byer and my father. They had four kids. And when we were going down there, I had never met my grand—maybe Mother said I'd seen him once, but I was too small to remember because he had moved out to—so maybe that was what the whole deal was all about, because he had left. Because I do remember, we used to go down a lot of times and I never saw my grandfather. And he lived for a long time, but I never saw him after that one time. So maybe he was chased out—but whatever. And then so my grandma was there. In those days, see, my grandmother lived there. Aunt Evelyn and Aunt Gertie lived in the house too And we were all down there. And Uncle Byer, they all lived in the big house. | 20:46 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | So it was happy times. I don't remember anything not happy. And then my grandmother got sick and she died. But the house was still there for a while. I don't know for how long. And then I know after my father got sick and stuff we didn't go anymore. Yeah, that's right. Come to think about, yeah, because my grandfather left real early. He had the four kids, my father and them. Hmm, that's right. You dredged it up. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. So that's that. That's that. | 21:36 |
Rhonda Mawhood | You were telling me that you were in the service. Can you tell me more about that? How you went in, what you did? | 22:13 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Oh, I know. I'll tell you what—okay. So when we were coming up, everybody graduated from high school. None of us went to college. So they didn't want any of—we didn't have to work. As long as my father worked—my father had three girls and a boy. So he always said that, "Well, you can stay here," he said, "But you have to work for your own clothes and stuff. We'll feed you and clothe you." He should have never told us that because, boy, were we lazy. But I really didn't have to work till my father died. Oh, I remember. Oh, yeah. Then I had a girlfriend who joined the service. She said, "Why don't you join? I just joined." | 22:17 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And after, I came out and I got married and stuff and had the kids. Oh, that's right. Yeah, then I had the kids then I separated from my husband. We were separated. I was pregnant when he went overseas, when he went to his war. When we were in the service, kids were like army brats. But then when he came back, which I hated him anyway, but we had another baby—and that was it though. And so I remember too that we had the children and we weren't getting along. And Ruth wasn't getting along with her husband because I knew her husband just like she knew mine from the year one. We were so funny, couldn't stand them and everything. | 23:02 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And so I separated from him and I went back home because he was brutal and alcoholic and everything. And one thing I was smart enough to know about statistics. One day he told me what he was going to do if I was there when he came back, so I called my father. And I just went and called my father to come pick me and the kids up and we went home. And then so we lived with Mother and Daddy, Douglas and Jerry and myself. And then my father got sick and he died and everything. So I was there and Mother said, "Well, are you going to go work here or what?" I said, "Oh, I have to go to work?" And she said, "Yes." "Oh," I said, "Well, I haven't even had a—" | 23:45 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | I remember her telling me, she said, "First thing you do is take a civil service test." And I said, "Oh, that's good because—" And sure enough, so you take a test, which was good. And she told all the kids and the other girls didn't do it, but I did. So then I had five office jobs, which was good. I could work at Welfare, Probation Department, Tuberculosis League, or Mayor Dunn wanted a secretary. And I hated Mayor Dunn. I knew I wasn't taking that job. So I had four offers that were so good. So I said, "Well, I think I'll take this one." I said to myself, "I'll take the Probation." Because it was right in the courthouse, the bus stopped right there. So that's why I took that job. It was so funny. That's why I took that job. | 24:24 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And I stayed there for 20 years. Good job too. It was great. I lot of fun and stuff. It was the only good job I ever had. So 20 years out of my—and that was it. Because, oh, I had little jobs in the meantime. I remember working at a bookstore and I read every book going there because I worked in the—they had stations. I worked where the encyclopedias and stuff and you don't read them and so my station was quiet. I would read books. I loved—I think my mother had four speed readers. We were the fastest readers. Because I remember when we were kids coming up, we didn't have television or anything like that, but I always remember sitting around the table, everybody with a book. Everybody, we had books. We read, my mother, my father, everybody, we just read. So reading is really good and everything. | 25:07 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And now I remember Mother always teasing Daddy and we were talking about school and stuff. We said, "Daddy—" Daddy would never tell my mother how far he went in school. Now, his mother went to college, right? And he would say, "Don't worry about it, Vi." She said, "You probably went to the third grade." He said, "Don't worry about it," and stuff like that. And I never knew. To this day, I wished I knew what—my father was a man of great knowledge, but I think reading would do it. Because I remember one day I was in the sixth grade or something and we had to find something out about gold bullion and my father knew everything. | 25:58 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And I told my mother, I said, "Daddy knows everything." He just retained—but you can retain a lot of knowledge by reading and stuff. And to this day, when we buy books and stuff, we always read, we have to buy thick books because we go through them so fast that it's pathetic, I'll tell you. But anyway, yeah, that was so funny. | 26:28 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And the reason I'm saying this is because I remember Mother had to quit school because she had to help raise her brothers and sisters when she was young. And she said she raised them since she was eight years old. And I think that's why my mother said that she would never let a child of hers have to work like she did. That's why we didn't have to do anything, which may be wrong but I liked it anyway. But, oh, and then Mother went to night school. I was just showing Jerry, I guess when he was here last time, Mother's report card, a little report card yellow with age, 98, 95, everything. | 26:44 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Boy, my mother, she always wanted to be a social worker or something but she never could do it. But her marks were—I said, "See, Jerry." Jerry said, "I have to hide." I said, "You better hide your face for your marks." We were laughing. But my mother, boy, her marks were great and stuff. We used to laugh. She always wanted to be a social worker or in that line. She liked to help people and stuff like that. She was a great lady. The kids talk about [indistinct 00:27:52]. They called her [indistinct 00:27:53]. Mother didn't like grandma, so that's why she said [indistinct 00:27:57]. And she said, "Daddy could be paid today." He said, [indistinct 00:28:00]. So everybody called Daddy Pop Pop. | 27:25 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And then the kids were so rotten, my boys, they started to pop the sound. I said, "Say Pop Pop." "Pop." Oh, but Pop Pop was so cute. It sounds so cute. But all the other kids, like Shannon and everybody, they remember their Pop Pop except Bunky and Jerry. And I remember when we were coming up, Ruth's kids, she had two girls and a boy. So there was mommy. And I could not make my children say mommy. I loved that. "Ma." And to this day, Ruth's son, he says mommy and it sounds so cute. | 28:05 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | "Ma," oh. I said, "Why don't you kids say mommy?" And, "Ma." And now they're saying Velma. I said, "No, hold it." They really are prank—I have such a great rapport with both of them. They're really great. Of course they beg and never have enough money or this and that and promises and stuff. But we just have, from the time they were born, wonderful times, really good times and stuff. And they always had their mother on a pedestal, which they knocked off a few times, but they put her back. Yeah, funny. | 28:32 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Can I ask you if they saw their father after you left? | 29:08 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Oh yeah, uh-huh. Mm-hmm, yeah, they'd see their father. And they'd see their father and he would try to see me, but I had nothing else and everything like that. But I do remember Bunky saying that— Douglas, his name is. We call him Bunky, the oldest one. He said, "Mom," he said, "But one thing I remember coming up, really remember, as far as me and Jerry know you you've never said anything against him." | 29:12 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | He said, "Never have I—" And he was really, oh, something else. But he said, "You never said like most people say, 'Your father is—'" I never said anything. I guess they found out for themselves. But he said, "That's the one thing," he said, "You really never said anything against him." Which, in the first place, I didn't care about him. I had no time to dredge that up. But I'm kind of glad that I didn't because they tell me, they said, "Mom, you never really said anything bad about him and stuff." Wonderful mother. I said, "Forget him. That's why." | 29:39 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. Well, you said that you went into the military because your friend Ruth was in it. | 30:08 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Oh no, no, Ruth wasn't in it. Another friend. | 30:14 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Another friend, okay. | 30:16 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Yeah, no. Well, I wasn't working and stuff like that so, "Maybe I'll just try this." | 30:16 |
Rhonda Mawhood | How old were you? | 30:20 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | 19 or 20, something like that. | 30:21 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. And had the second world war started? | 30:24 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Yeah. Yeah. | 30:27 |
Rhonda Mawhood | When was this? It was 1941 or 2? | 30:28 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Wasn't it '40, '45 around that era? Something like that. Yeah. | 30:30 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. | 30:33 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And it was nice because—and really the remarkable part for me was I had never been away from home. And even when I got married, I was just six miles away from my parents. No, to this day I always think back, I said, "I wonder why I did that?" which was a good move. But I don't know how I ever did it but you get—well, you don't have time to think about home because you were working and stuff like that. But I always regret it to this day that the job I had was—MOS, my MOS was secretarial, typing and stuff like that. And I used to watch these girls, they worked in a motor pool. Well, they could break down a motor and put a—oh, I used to die. I said, "I wish I had a done—" They could pull a motor apart and put it together. And they used to wear these cute little fatigues tucked down in their boots and be sharp. And I used to say, "Oh, why didn't I—" But you didn't know at that time they needed and stuff like that. | 30:35 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And, oh, and I do remember, okay, in the service, that's right, Susan Crabtree. She was from Washington DC. Susan looked White. She was Black because we were, like I said, a Black contingent. She had green eyes and everything. She was real cute. We worked side by side. She was a good friend. And she used to say, "You know, Velma, we could go out and we could date these guys, these White guys." I said, "I'm not doing that." And she said, "No, but they won't know the difference. They won't know the difference." Oh, they may not for her, but I'm sure they would know me. And Susan used to go out but I didn't go because—and she was right from Washington. But Susan used to go and try—I said, "No, I can't do that." | 31:28 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. And you were stationed at the time where? | 32:02 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Des Moines, Iowa. | 32:07 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Des Moines, okay. | 32:09 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Yeah, Des Moines, Iowa. Then we were stationed— then they needed one girl out in Walla Walla, Washington. I had to go out there by myself and relocate and stuff. Walla Walla, Washington— | 32:10 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What was it like? | 32:19 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Yeah, for some job or something. Because you'd move around and you know you're not going to stay together forever and stuff. You'd meet a lot of girls. And then the girls that we went overseas with, we were together all that time and stuff like that. | 32:21 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What was that like living in England? | 32:40 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Oh, well, the time that we went I was seasick going— Oh, we left on the Ile de France. I remember that. And old, beat up—we had an escort three miles out, we were at war, three miles out. But it didn't bother me. I didn't care if the ship went down. I was this color— | 32:42 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Green? | 33:00 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | —all the way over anyway. You had to go up on deck for a deck training and you'd heave. Oh, and we had one girl, Daisy. Daisy was from Pennsylvania Avenue in Elizabeth where I lived. And she'd always come with these—I don't know if it was 7UP or if they had 7UP at that time, but whatever it was. But she said, "Anybody want—" and she's the only one—and down the hole they had the greasy potatoes and stuff you had to eat. And you had to get boat drills but I was already going crazy—and I knew it was dangerous but I didn't know because I was so sick, I didn't care what they did. They could turn the boat upside down. So I remember we landed in Scotland, if I'm not mistaken. We landed in Scotland and Captain Hampton was our officer. And we were in full regalia, helmets and packs and everything. And you'd salute. | 33:00 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And at that time you said ma'am because she wasn't a sir. I said, "Ma'am, I'm sorry. I cannot—" So she said, "Go ahead on through, soldier," because I couldn't even salute I was just so sick. So we got there, we were stationed at Prince Edward School or something over there. No—and it was already bombed out. We could hear the bombs in the distance. But I remember getting into pajamas and everybody was— I said, "Look, I don't care what you guys do but I'm going to go to sleep now. If they bomb, just wake me up." I went to sleep. Now, they could have stood there being—I was so sick. | 33:48 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | But we weren't really in any danger because the bombs were way out there. See, what we did at that time was we would take the guys' jobs so they could go overseas. See, that was our job then. We didn't do anything really spectacular. I learned to climb cargo nets and dig fox holes and stuff like that. And see, you're young, you're strong. You don't even know what illness is and stuff like that. And I remember that and stuff. And you make great friends and stuff. Learn how to stoke a fire in a great big pot belly stove and stuff like that. | 34:19 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Mm-hmm. You hear a lot about male camaraderie in the service, men living together and developing relationships, strong relationships. What was it like among all the women, all women contingent? | 34:55 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Oh, well, you had your—I don't know if it was cliques at that time. But anyway, I know there was five of us used to hang together and one girl was gay because you found a lot of that. She was gay. She was a really cute girl and she used to like me. But I knew she liked me, but she always wanted to make my bunk. I'd say, "Yeah, go ahead and make it up. Bounce that quarter off that bunk." And then when she asked—I was terrible. I really don't like what I did, but when she asked to go out with us I said, "No, you can't come." | 35:10 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | But she'd be waiting there when we came back. But she was alone. And I guess she liked me, but that's as far as it went. She didn't bother me or anything. But she always wanted to do everything because we had to have these spit shines and stuff and these here White glove inspections, which was very scary. Because I do remember we were going to have this—the generals were coming and everything like that. We had every button—and you're standing. | 35:41 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | I was so ramrod straight, I was chosen as guide on [indistinct 00:36:07] which I could have croaked to this day. The only reason I was standing straight, I was scared to death. And the girls used to laugh at me because at night I had to practice the—you know when you go past the reviewing stand you drop your flag and you—but you're a proud person when you do it. Because I remember I used to have goose pimples all the time. To this day when I hear parades and stuff like that, I can—that part, it really was nice. And I remember standing and guys used to pass out. Girls didn't do it that much. And a body dropped, forget it. They're right there, you stand right there. | 36:04 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | I remember we took a six mile hike before one Thanksgiving dinner and everything. A six mile hike before. It was good dinner though. I still have the brochure someplace with the Thanksgiving menu and stuff like that. But the girls were good because—there were five of us. But we had a really, really great time. Oh, I remember, I guess because I had been spoiled at home or something, but I used to always get these gigs. If you get five gigs, you go on report and stuff. And I'd get to the fourth one, I had to quit. But that's because my hair would hang down over my collar. You had to have it rolled up. You couldn't have the long nails and stuff. | 36:39 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And I remember one day I went in and I had cut my hair, but she said, "Well, you didn't have to do that." I said, "Well, you keep yelling at me." And I said, "Boy, her barracks—" I was enough on gigs to clean all the time. I always had to work because I was—and my girls used to come and help me. So they finally stopped that because it wasn't punishment after that. She used to have curtains on the windows. I said, "Oh, this is nice," because we didn't have anything like that and stuff. | 37:15 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Gig, that's a punishment? | 37:36 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Yeah. No, yeah, gigs are marks against you. Uh-huh. See, if you get five, then you go on report and then it's on your record. But I would never get up to five, but enough. And then after she stopped, nobody could help me, then I quit doing all these naughty little things, that hair. Oh, and standing at Reveille and a pajama leg used to fall down under the skirt. And police the area, [indistinct]. But see, everything is fun. Oh, I mean serious too. But yeah, you had a lot of fun because when you're young, you find fun in everything and stuff. And I used to write home. I used to write home all the time and say, "Oh, Mother, I—" Mother used to make the best bread pudding. And I said all the time, "Oh, I miss your bread pudding so much." I always just remember I used to miss the bread pudding. Oh, she made good bread pudding. | 37:37 |
Rhonda Mawhood | You were saying that one of your friends in the military was gay and you said that you see a lot of that. Did you know that when you went into the military? | 38:30 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | No, uh-uh. In fact, I knew one guy I worked with, his name was Bill Bailey. It's funny, but Bill Bailey. But he was gay. But I thought from the very beginning that people are people, but they always seemed to be nicer than any other people. Because I have gay friends when I was working at the courthouse and stuff, guys and stuff. Mostly guys, not girls. But they're more compassionate. They're really—I have nothing—I love them, I'm telling you. And my son, the same way, Douglas, he marches in all the gay parades and stuff and the parades for AIDS and stuff. He's very compassionate and everything. | 38:37 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And I like that because we have to be compassionate and stuff like that. But no, I knew about them but there—oh yeah, because this one day we were getting dressed and the girl, her eagle wasn't straight, so I fixed it. Another girl—she said, "Keep your hand off—" I said, "Oh, I'm sorry," Because that was her— | 39:17 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Oh, yeah. | 39:33 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Yeah, "Keep your hand off my woman." I was just fixing the eagle because I know if those eagles weren't flying straight, boy, the whole place would be having demerits and stuff. | 39:34 |
Rhonda Mawhood | So you wore an eagle, it was on a chain? | 39:42 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Oh, no, no, no, no, no, they were buttons. | 39:46 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Buttons. Oh, okay. | 39:47 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Your buttons, your eagles were flying. Oh, I used to get gigs too for wearing officer's shirts. They had the silky shirts. Because you can get them at the PX. I used to wear them and I know they weren't regulation. But I used to wear them anyway because they were sharp and the collars—I'd look good. I said, "I think I can get away with this." | 39:47 |
Rhonda Mawhood | When you were in the military, who would do the women soldier's hair? | 40:11 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Who what? | 40:15 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Would do the women soldier's hair? | 40:16 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | You'd do your own hair. Yeah, everybody would do your own hair, the cutting or—well, I'd just keep it short then and everything. I didn't have any problem with my hair. But you'd do your own hair. It probably looks dumb. And some of my pictures are—my uncle had a lot of pictures. I hated those pictures. I looked so goofy in those pictures. Oh, me. | 40:18 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What did your mother think of you or your father also? | 40:45 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Oh, they loved— | 40:47 |
Rhonda Mawhood | What did they think of you going into the military? | 40:48 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | They was all right because this was something—see, I found out early in life that—I used to listen to my parents so much. And I used to hear mother say constantly to Daddy, and when I got grown a little, I used to hear her say, "Well, if Velma doesn't want to do it, she won't do it." Or, "If Velma doesn't want to eat—" Because I would never eat leftovers, only because my father didn't eat them so I was always with my father. And so I didn't have to eat them. So you learned quick. And Mother used to say when I got grown, she said, "If you had wanted to be bad or naughty, you would have been because there would be no stopping—" But I said, "That's because I used to listen to you and Daddy." She said, "Oh." All the time saying, "Well, Velma won't do it." | 40:50 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And I said, "Oh, I can get away with it." But it didn't affect her. But she used to tell me when I got grown, she said, "Boy," not thinking, she said, "If you—" Mother had four kids to take care of. It's hard for her to think for every kid. But yeah, I used to always hear it, "Well, you know Velma is not going to eat it." To this day, I don't like leftovers. I used to hear her say it all the time. She said, "Velma won't eat it." I'd say, "Oh, good. I don't have to eat that. That's right. Ha ha, psychology." I remember that, yeah. | 41:27 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Do you— | 41:58 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | No, oh, what you were saying though it was because it was something I wanted to do. So usually I could do what I wanted to because I always had a clear head and everything and I was really a homebody. I didn't like going out that much and stuff. So I guess that was the end of my marriage because I probably thought everybody was like my father. Because see now, my husband drank and everything and my father never drank. My father would have a glass of whatever he had every New Year's, once a year. He'd come home, Mother would say, "Here comes your father, drunk again." And we used to laugh. And Daddy, he would from one little—I never saw whiskey in the house in my whole life. | 41:58 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | So what was there— Not going out that much, I didn't know and stuff like that. That's the excuse I give myself anyway. So I don't know. Yeah, they thought it was all right because it was something I wanted to do and I did what I wanted to do and stuff like that. But that was okay. | 42:35 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did your grandmothers ever tell you any stories about being Indian or about their people? | 42:55 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | About what? | 43:02 |
Rhonda Mawhood | About being Indian? About things like that? | 43:02 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Oh, no, she didn't. Uh-uh. No, she never did. My grandmother, she was always in church and everything. And we were Presbyterians. She was always in church. And she was a choir leader. She was a secretary. Now, I don't know where Grandma went to school. She had the most beautiful handwriting I've ever seen in my life, just that spidery—and now I wish I knew what schooling they had in those days because I don't think it was very much because my grandmother was born in 1876. She was born about the time that the Younger Brothers— And I said, "Oh, she's born with them," and Jesse James and all of them. I said—and I said, "Wow. Grandma was born way back then?" Yeah, and so I don't know how much schooling and she had or anything like that, but her handwriting was impeccable. | 43:04 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And she was a very articulate person. So on both sides they were really, really pretty good and stuff like that. But I wish I knew. But I don't ever hear her— My brother was the one telling me most of what I knew because he was older so he knew more and stuff. It's sketchy, sort of. And then Jerry one time was supposed to be tracing our roots, far back, because he wanted the—Jerry, he's the very flamboyant Jerry. He likes the, what do you call it? The coat of arms and stuff. He wanted to see it and I said, "Get out of here." But I thought he had started, but I'm not sure and stuff. | 43:55 |
Rhonda Mawhood | You remember your grandmother wearing braids, you were saying. | 44:36 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | No, my other grandmother. | 44:39 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Your other grandmother, yeah. | 44:40 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | My other grandmother down South. She just looked so Indian and pretty. She had such a cute nose and everything. In fact, when we went down South for her funeral, I almost fainted because my father looked so much like her. And I kept looking at Daddy and kept looking at—I said, "Daddy, I've got to get out of here." Because frightening, he looked just like his mother. Because my father had big fat curls when he was five years old. And his grandmother, his mother didn't want to cut them, but somebody cut one so he had to cut. Big fat curls way down here, beautiful—then I saw him in a picture at 12, curls just massed, beautiful. And my father really was cute, a really cute guy. | 44:40 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Those pictures don't do him justice. But even my children, they say, "Boy, was Pop Pop handsome." They didn't even know anything about anything like that. He never thought of himself or anything. Anything, just a regular guy and stuff. And a very shy person. My father was quiet, but not my mother. My mother did all the talking and everything. Daddy would say—they were funny. I think back now that my father loved his children. My father always had a car full of kids, us and anybody else. My father loved his children 150%. My mother loved her children 150%. They were more friends than anything else. But we got all the love that they could give. And I just know this and stuff. | 45:16 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And we used to laugh because sometimes they used to get up and dance or something. We'd say, "Mother, that's all you and Daddy know is the waltz?" But it was cute. And we would laugh. Jerry was teaching them how to do the Funky Chicken and all that stuff like that. Oh, we would die laughing. It was funny. I remember that. I remember that. I remember me, do you know how you stand on your father's feet and he walks around? I remember him doing that to the grandkids and stuff. And right down line, my father just loved his children. | 45:59 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And then my kids came along and we went back home, he had them. And then he'd always say, "Well, you can take one child with you." And Mr. Jerry, with his fresh self, and he'd say, "Jerry, can I go? Jerry, can I go?" And he'd say, "Yesterday you was mean to me." I said, "Jerry, if I hear you say this, that's not it. Nobody goes." I said, "You just pick a kid." "Because you was mean to me," or something. Like, "Who cares?" Jerry was so fresh. "Okay, Walter, you could come this time," and everything. I said, "Oh." My father, he just, "Come on, let's go. Let's go. Let's go fishing." They would go fishing and stuff and whatever. | 46:27 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | —a place of museums. My father took us every place. That was his life. He really cared for his kids. I mean, just before he died, got sick, he was going to trade in his car for a station wagon. My mother said, "Why do you want a station wagon?" He said, "For the kids". | 0:00 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | She said, "Whose?" Daddy wanted the kids, mother was getting tired. Daddy wanted the kids to tumble into stuff just—he was really good. He was A-okay. The children remember him so vividly and he died in 1968 maybe. Any of our children remember Papa because you can't—but he was so—he just had such a—and my mother too. Mata was firm. Mother was very firm, honest to a point and true. But she was there for you. I'm telling you she was; Mata and Papa. | 0:18 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | But I had great parents, I'll tell you. And the children had—they just loved their grandparents. They were good. We had a lot of fun. We weren't rich, but—oh, we didn't know it. We were poor. But I said, "Well, we always thought that we were rich." | 0:54 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | We were poor, but we loved and everything. And always family together saying your grace and everything and your prayers at night, squealing on each other and stuff. I remember we were little kids that we slept in a double bed, the three little girls and my youngest sister used to wet the bed. We used to hate her and said, "I don't want her sleeping next to me. I don't want to because she is always wetting the bed and stuff like that." | 1:09 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Oh God, I remember that too. I said, "Is this kid ever going to stop wetting?" I said, "I don't want to sleep next to her." It was really, really, really flooded. But then that's not the—okay, well anyway. | 1:34 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Well, it's really interesting to hear. I wanted to ask you how old your father was when he moved from Virginia to New Jersey? | 1:49 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | How what? | 1:55 |
Rhonda Mawhood | How old your father was? | 1:57 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Oh, he was a young man because he met my mother here before they got married. Newark at one. And see he met- | 1:58 |
Rhonda Mawhood | They met in New Jersey? | 2:05 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Yeah. Because my mother lived in New Jersey and my mother met him and she met this guy and then she looked used to look out the window and see him coming past the house. And she said—and she didn't know him. She said, "What is this White guy keep coming past?" She thought my father was White and everything like that. And then she finally found out he wasn't, so they went to the movies and stuff. And then I guess from there—and I'll tell you one thing. They got married and see in those days—I don't know what kind of house. I can't remember. But there was enough room for everybody, big rooms and stuff. So he married my mother and they stayed with my mother and her mother. That's how they used to do in those days. | 2:06 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And then us little kids came along and stuff. I remember I was about 12 years old I guess. I remember grandma is telling daddy something and he said, "Yes, mama," and stuff. My mother said something and she said, "Who was there?" I said, "No". I said, "Graham". She said, "What are you talking about?" I said, "Daddy's mother". She said, "That is not your father's mother. That's my mother." And all his years I thought it was because, "Yes, mama. No, mama," all the time and all the time until I was 12 years old, I couldn't believe how—I said, "Why am I dense or what?" | 2:46 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | But just took it for granted because, "Yes, mama. No, mama," because daddy was just a quiet person, very mannerable, and stuff. He'd say mama just like grandmother used to say mama. And I do remember too, his mother used to tell us all the time. | 3:22 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | She said—when she started having the babies, she said her mother wanted to say Mama and Papa. And mother said, "No way". She said, "They'll call me Mother and they'll call their father, Daddy. And that's what mother—and nobody called their mother, Mother. All through school nobody but us. Everybody else said Mama like that. But I like Mother because that's all—Mother and Daddy. Although my kids "Ma." | 3:34 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Do you know why your father moved to New Jersey? | 4:04 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | No. No, I really don't. I think that one time he had been here. I think he liked the northern cities, I think. But I don't know why because, well, it wasn't bad then, my father was really a very shy person. And then I guess after he met my mother, then he probably came up. | 4:08 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | I think one time he did come up. My mother didn't see him when he came up. But I think that maybe he came up once, maybe he came back or something like that. And then after he met my mother, then I guessed that then he settled and he and the mother said that the girl he had went with before her was named Viola. My mother's name was Viola. I said he didn't want to get mixed up, honey. Yeah, I guess that was what it was. I assume because I know that he was—maybe it was—I don't know. I really have no idea. But I think that one time he came up and then maybe the next time he came, like I said, he met my mother. So then he liked her. And I said, "Mother, I don't know how he liked you because you were stern in and everything." | 4:26 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And mother went [indistinct 00:05:11] like that, but opposites attract, I guess. And we said, "Tell Daddy." He said, "So there's your mother. Ask," and stuff like that. Oh, and this is so funny. I remember my mother a few times used to faint; just pass out. | 5:10 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And I said, "Daddy, Mother faints." Well, he said, "Well, put a washcloth on." He'd be reading. Put a washcloth on and she'd come to like—he said, "See?" | 5:26 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Funny. | 5:36 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Yeah. And everything. And so I don't know because my mother died six years ago. My mother was like 86. So she lived a long life like that. But it was so funny. Said put a washcloth on her head. I guess they were glad she was quiet for the moment. And Mother cleaned that house. Let me tell you, this was the cleanest lady and I think she almost tried to lift the linoleum up to clean under. Mother cleaned all— and Daddy. I remember Daddy said, "You're going to scrub the skin off those kids." Bathed every—I mean, nights, morning—clean coming up from school, change your clothes, all are fresh at night. Clean. Clean. Clean. Clean. Clean. And mother loved doing this. | 5:44 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | My mother put clothes on the line, you can't believe. And this is every day. Oh, man. But my mother loved housework so much. Her house was really the cleanest house in the whole world. And we never had to hardly even do anything. So when I started really—I remember one time when my mother was getting sick, but she died six or seven years ago, so before that. And she said, "Well, Velma," she said, "You're going to have to clean it straight." I was—oh, at that time the kids were gone and I was still living with my mother because I was never going to leave my mother. | 6:17 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | So I remember her saying, "Well, you better clean the house up." And I said, "Okay". So she didn't feel so good. She said, "I'm going to just lay here." I said, "Okay". I said, "Mom, what you do first?" She said. I said, "Well, where's the duster?" I didn't know a thing. My mother said, "Let me get well and get up here and do it." I said, "Thank you, Mother." | 6:51 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | I didn't know where the duster—I didn't know a thing about cleaning. And that's why I love cleaning the house now because I never had to really do it. But I love it. It's really nice, good stuff. But I never had to do it because Mother said, "Let me get well and get up here 'cause this child don't know nothing. Child." I was always a child. But when you're young, of course compared to her, 185 is not young. | 7:06 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Well, I had a good—I always looked back. We had good times. We had great times and everything. And I'm really glad I had those parents like—Jerry said, "So mom, how come we were never rich?" I said, "Well, Jerry, that's a question I can't answer you because if I could answer, I think we would be rich," you know? How come we never was rich? I said, "I don't know Jerry, It's a question that"—hyat's why I just told Jerry I thought we were rich. He said, "You don't even have to tell me." I said, "Oh, you shut up," and stuff. He loved that. he'd say "Ma tell us more" I said, "I don't want"—I said, "They have to pay me." He said, "We don't have any money." I said, "Then get out of my face." We used to have fun. We to used play. And Jerry said, "Ma used to scare us," because when they were like—Jerry was 12, Bunky might've been— Or Bunky was 12 and Jerry was like maybe 10. | 7:33 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | We used to play. I used to play stick ball and stuff in the street and running bases and I could beat them running. They thought they would die. They said, "I can't believe my mother could still beat"—it took them a long time because I was very athletic. Boy, these long legs used to—used to say, "My mother can beat us running." And I remember early in my youth, me and my father used to bicycle ride together and everything like that. And they finally said, "Phew. For a moment we thought we was never going to outrun my mother." And we'd choose sides. I want my mother. No, I want my—boom. We had a good time. But out all the—and I was teaching Jerry and them how to knit, which was good, and to type, and stuff like that. And then we used to play a little tennis together and stuff. | 8:24 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And it wasn't girly. I told them that for the knit and stuff like that. And Bunky asked me about a stitch the last time he was here because he was going to show Shannon and everything and we had a good rapport. But they knew that I was the parent no matter what. There was times too, when I am the parent, no matter what. I mean, I wasn't their peers, but we—well, that's because that's how it was with my father and mother. We just did everything together and everything. We always piling the cars, going to picnics and stuff and just having—then when my kids and my sister—oh, it was crazy. It was really good. I like that. Oh, are we supposed to be talking about Black and White here or what? | 9:05 |
Rhonda Mawhood | No. No. That's fine to talk about your family. | 9:44 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Yeah, we used to have a good time. | 9:48 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | I miss my mother. But see there comes a time when you can look back and stuff because you're not going to bring anybody back with my mother and father and stuff. And it's so good because the kids are constantly—they'd say, "Mom". They said, "[indistinct 00:10:03] and Pop did so-and-so. They remember. We just keep it—you can't help. And sometimes I look and I say, "Oops". I said, "Mother, I got to dust you and Daddy up. You're a little dusty up here." I'd dust the pictures up and said, "Excuse me," and stuff. I know you're up there laughing. And it's good. It feels really good because I know that they're safe, A-okay and stuff like that. But yeah, we have good times and stuff. | 9:50 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did you know your grandfather on your mother's side? Your mother's father? | 10:27 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | No, he was—oh, on mother's side? On my mother's side? No, because—okay, my mother, grandma's, let's say, mother. Grandma married three times. Ooh. She was A-okay. Yeah, she had married three times, but I didn't know anybody because by the time we came along, it was big enough then she—I do remember this though. Grandma had married three times. They all died. And there was this Mr. Palmer. I do you remember his name. He was really young compared to my grandma. | 10:31 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | He was crazy about my grandmother. And that didn't work in those days, but used to come to the house and sit because the whole family was there. And he'd sit by for hours and grandma would ignore him and he'd just sit there and so happy to be in the—and he really liked grandma. That's what I remember about him. But no, I never—my real grandfather died. But mother's father died when she was eight. See? So then grandma married a couple more times, but I don't remember any of them because that was before. | 11:04 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Did your mother know anything about him and where he—I mean, did your mother tell you about your grandfather and where he was from? | 11:29 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | He was from the north. His name was Caleb Joshua Davis. I do remember that. And he was from the north because my grandmother wasn't into any Southerner period. She liked nothing about the South. I think she was a very prejudice lady. Nothing about the South. Because all our people from the year one, see? So he had to be a northerner because—and he had to go to Presbyterian church because when we was going up we weren't allowed to go to Baptist church or anything. And I didn't know anything about Baptist or anything. Only Presbyterian. And Presbyterians visited Presbyterians. It was fun though. It was all right. | 11:35 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Was your mother's father African-American? | 12:16 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Mother— | 12:20 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Your mother's father? | 12:21 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Yeah. Yeah, my father—well, remember I told you he was from Germany. | 12:22 |
Rhonda Mawhood | No, your mother's father. | 12:25 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Oh, mother. Oh— | 12:26 |
Rhonda Mawhood | [indistinct 00:12:29]— | 12:27 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Yeah. He was Afro-American. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure he was. But they weren't from the South. I don't know where they came—I never got to that. | 12:29 |
Rhonda Mawhood | I was just wondering because I'd asked you about the rest of your family. | 12:37 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | I don't know because— I should asked my brother. | 12:43 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Your grandmother, your mother's mother, who would talk about the South and you said she didn't like anything about the South. Do you remember her telling you that when you were a little girl, thing like that? | 12:47 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | No. When the grownups used to talk, they never told us. But you know that they don't because I used to hear her saying they'd come up here and they'd take your jobs away from you for less money and stuff like that. And I think in those days too, as far as my grandparents were concerned, after Virginia, forget it. Like Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, forget it and stuff. And then as we grew up though, we found out that people were just as nice all over. But we had to find it out for ourselves really. But it was all right because we did find out people are just people. No matter what they said, it didn't really have that effect on us, but I do know that everybody got a bad shake down. That's why I was asking you about the senior citizens. | 12:55 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | Because I'm wondering if they're born here so maybe it hurts them to talk about it and stuff. I was asking Ruth, she said, "Either that or they just don't remember." She said, "Because some of them are really old." And I said, "Forgetful like we are," and stuff. She said, "Because I was wondering, to me it would be maybe a hard thing." Especially because this lady down the senior citizen—I forget. I don't know what her name is, but she asked me. She said—because see, like I say, I'm only here that short time. And she said, "Did you ever work in the fields?" I said, "No, no, I never did." And she said, "I didn't think so," she said. Because she said she used to work in the field. She said for 50 cents a day from seven o'clock in the morning until—I said, "What?" | 13:36 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | And she said, "Yeah". She said then one time they got a raise of a dollar a day. And I said, "Well, that was"—she said, "That is not much now." | 14:15 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | "Oh, no, not now," I said. But I said at that time that was double. So that had to be something like that. And see I feel sad inside when somebody told me this because these people down there, they're beautiful people, absolutely. They're just the nicest people I ever met in my whole entire life, right at the senior citizen. And you could love them because they're genuine. They really are genuine. They're fun and everything. I guess that's why I say going back might hurt them a lot because it hurts me and I wasn't even here because I was ready to fight. | 14:21 |
Velma J. Arkward Payne | But I could see. And they're beautiful people I'll tell you. I just enjoy—they're just fun. Gt my yap going a mile a minute down there too and stuff. And they say, "Oh, yeah." I like that. Because I'm always yapping and everybody's always laughing at me. But I love that. That's what it's all about. We're going to have to cut this short because I really have to be— | 15:00 |
Rhonda Mawhood | Okay. Sure. | 15:24 |
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