Georgia Sutton interview recording, 1993 July 30

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Rhonda Mawhood	—Where you grew up?	0:01
Georgia Sutton	I was born and reared in New Bern, North Carolina. I've lived here all of my life except I went to school in Durham, North Carolina which was North Carolina College at the time I attended.	0:04
Georgia Sutton	In fact, it was North Carolina College at Durham. And then my first job was in the state of Georgia as teacher librarian. In fact it was in Quitman, Georgia.	0:23
Rhonda Mawhood	Quitman, Georgia?	0:40
Georgia Sutton	Down near Valdosta, Georgia. I stayed there three years until I married. Then I moved back to North Carolina and I got a job here at home.	0:46
Rhonda Mawhood	How did it happen that you moved to Georgia for your first job, Ma'am?	1:02
Georgia Sutton	Well, to tell you the truth, at that time, it was a segregated school system and jobs were very, very hard to get. There was one thing that appealed to me about the state of Georgia. They paid 12 months per year. Of course at that time, North Carolina paid only nine.	1:06
Georgia Sutton	We only worked nine months and you received all of your money in nine months and you would certainly have to know how to manage it. I was young at that time and I wasn't managing it as well as I should have.	1:33
Georgia Sutton	I knew that if I worked someplace where they paid year-round, it would be much easier. And so that was one of the things that really attracted me to the state of Georgia.	1:49
Rhonda Mawhood	I've heard about teachers working during the summer at other jobs besides teaching. Was this true of teachers in Georgia in your experience or were they able to take time off during summer because they were paid 12 months a year?	2:00
Georgia Sutton	There were some who worked, but not that many. Because you knew that you were going to get the same amount in the summer that you received during the winter and that certainly made a difference as to whether you wanted to work or not. And of course I did not. I always came home and I used to laugh about it. I'd say sit on the porch and rock and get my check.	2:18
Rhonda Mawhood	What kind of a school was it that you were teaching in, Ma'am?	2:45
Georgia Sutton	To tell you the truth, it is what was finally known or has been known as consolidated. We did not have kindergarten at that time. It was one through 12. Now if you can imagine that with all age levels on one campus. But that's the way it was.	2:49
Rhonda Mawhood	What was the name of the school, Ma'am, do you remember?	3:15
Georgia Sutton	To tell the truth, I sort of worked within both but I was really listed under the high school part, Brooks High School.	3:21
Rhonda Mawhood	And you were a teacher and librarian?	3:34
Georgia Sutton	Yes.	3:36
Rhonda Mawhood	What grade were you teaching?	3:38
Georgia Sutton	Well, to tell you the truth, I taught some high school, one high school subject I believe, as I recall. I think it was world history. And I taught one sixth grade subject. Yeah, that was social status too. Then other time, I spent in the library.	3:40
Rhonda Mawhood	Did you have a preference for one kind of work over another?	4:02
Georgia Sutton	At that time, there were very few full-time librarians. Even in North Carolina they were—Because when I went through school, the librarian as I recall, taught math and was librarian also.	4:06
Georgia Sutton	So in North Carolina, it was quite common that they had teacher librarians. As years passed, they changed and hired full-time librarians. I've seen field change because I'm full-time now and have been for a long time.	4:22
Rhonda Mawhood	Full-time librarian.	4:45
Georgia Sutton	Yes.	4:46
Rhonda Mawhood	Approximately what year was it when you began teaching in Georgia, Ma'am?	4:50
Georgia Sutton	Approximately maybe 53 or 54, somewhere along in there.	4:56
Rhonda Mawhood	You were teaching when the Supreme Court made the decision in Brown versus Board of Education—	5:03
Georgia Sutton	Yes, yes. Yes, I was.	5:07
Rhonda Mawhood	Do you remember that decision vividly?	5:10
Georgia Sutton	Well, not vividly, but I do recall that as years passed, now it took them some time to implement that. As time passed, there were some changes within the systems. But no, I don't vividly remember. I knew that it happened and I read about it and whatever, but it was some time before they actually implemented that and especially in the south.	5:13
Rhonda Mawhood	Do you remember whether you expected the schools to be slow to implement the decision?	5:46
Georgia Sutton	I was sure of it. Having lived in the south all of my life, I was sure they would drag their feet and hold off just as long as they possibly could. They did in most places.	5:54
Rhonda Mawhood	Do you remember being in favor of desegregation or against desegregation? What your feelings were?	6:07
Georgia Sutton	Well, at the time, looking at it from all angles and having worked in it, I knew that with integration, the Black children would get a chance to all would be exposed to all of the things that the White children were exposed to because under segregation and especially in the South, there was a tremendous difference in how the schools were set up or the materials that were used or given.	6:16
Georgia Sutton	In fact, when I was in school, I remember when the White children had the new books and the old books were sent to the Black schools. I remember that vividly. I resented it. I highly resented it. But that is the way it was and my mother used to tell me that remember, what you need is to get an education. And I always remembered that. Of course it wasn't easy for me because my father died when—	6:49
Georgia Sutton	In fact, I do not even remember him and my mother who did domestic work instilled into the two of us that an education was necessary. Both of us went to school.	7:26
Rhonda Mawhood	Was it a sister or a brother?	7:43
Georgia Sutton	My sister. My sister went to business school and for many years, I know 30 to 40 years, she was a manager of Craven Terrace Housing Authority. Well, she started off as secretary bookkeeper and as time passed, she was promoted to housing manager. Education was very important in our household.	7:44
Rhonda Mawhood	Did you discuss with your mother your feelings about things like receiving used books in school?	8:21
Georgia Sutton	Yes. We talked about it and she said that it was something she said, you cannot do anything about it now. She said, "But I will tell you this. You study, you learn." And she said, "I want you to always remember nobody can take whatever you learn from you. So you remember that."	8:30
Georgia Sutton	And then what I think what she was trying to say is nothing you can do about it, but you learn and you can always—In other words, you will be able to take care of yourself in later years.	8:54
Rhonda Mawhood	Was your mother from New Bern originally, Ma'am?	9:11
Georgia Sutton	She was originally from Jones County. That's up the highway.	9:14
Rhonda Mawhood	[indistinct 00:09:21].	9:19
Georgia Sutton	Right. Not that far.	9:21
Rhonda Mawhood	And your father, was he from New Bern?	9:23
Georgia Sutton	My father was from Wilmington, North Carolina. Of course he had migrated to this area.	9:25
Rhonda Mawhood	Did you know your grandparents when you were growing up, Ma'am?	9:33
Georgia Sutton	No, I didn't. For one thing, my mother was an only child and her parents died when she was young and she was reared by an aunt.	9:36
Rhonda Mawhood	Did you have contact with that aunt?	9:47
Georgia Sutton	Oh yes. Oh yes, until she died. In fact, we were and have always been a closely knit family. In fact, my sister just left here a few minutes ago.	9:51
Rhonda Mawhood	Would you say that your aunt helped your mother raise you?	10:13
Georgia Sutton	Well, yes. She lived in Jones County still. And of course, yes she did. And of course she was married and they lived on a farm. So yes, that meant there was fresh vegetables and whatever that were brought in for us.	10:19
Rhonda Mawhood	Where was it in New Bern that you were living when you were growing up?	10:43
Georgia Sutton	What is known now as the Duffyfield Area. And it certainly was not—Well, in other words, the neighborhood has done a lot of changing since we grew up over there.	10:47
Rhonda Mawhood	How do you remember the neighborhood being when you were a child, Ma'am?	11:03
Georgia Sutton	How can I say it? There's no doubt about it. You certainly could not say that we were well-to-do nor wealthy even. We certainly were not professionals, but it was a decent neighborhood. There is one thing that I do know, that we have lost as a race, I think we have lost it in most cases, is the extended family.	11:09
Georgia Sutton	For example, I had a neighbor who lived next door. If my mother were working, I knew very well that I was not going to misbehave because she was going to tell her as soon as my mother got home. And of course there's no doubt about it. My mother I think she tried to be fair. She would listen to your side of it and then she would ask you, "But did you do that?" "Oh well yes mama, I did, but—" She said, "I don't want any buts, just answer the question, did you?"	11:40
Georgia Sutton	Well then of course when you said yes, you know were going to get it, which you did. But that meant that the neighbors and the people around you meant a lot because it's kept you from getting off on the wrong path. It really did.	12:21
Georgia Sutton	We looked out for each other. To tell you the truth, I'm sort of glad that I grew up with that. You knew very well that you were not going to misbehave. If you did, you were going to get it from both places. Because the neighbor's going to reprimand you for sure. And then when your parents got home, you'd get it again.	12:38
Georgia Sutton	It sort of kept you in line. Of course during that time, you were chaperoned well. You were not allowed to go to just loose, to this place, the other place without being chaperoned. It wasn't the idea that any adult, it had to be someone that your parents knew.	13:05
Georgia Sutton	You had hours to be at home. For example, when I was growing up, their favorite expression was if I went to a friend's house, and especially after I started school, my mother would always say, "You be back here before dark." What she meant was, "You be back before that street light comes on." And I can remember many, many afternoon I was running to get home before that light came on. But parents just kept close tabs on children and I think it helped.	13:35
Georgia Sutton	And of course when I grew up, I think maybe I was fortunate in that my mother worked and my neighbor	14:15
Georgia Sutton	Then high school education, there were people who were teaching with the high school education. But my neighbor was not a teacher, but I'm sure she had a high school education. She kept—Well, in other words, I stayed with her during the day while my mother worked. But she taught me to read, she taught me to write and she taught math and I've been reading since I was four. When I started school, I could read and write too. I think that was something in my favor, a plus I can say.	14:35
Rhonda Mawhood	Would you like to tell me this lady's name for the record?	15:20
Georgia Sutton	Her name was Betty Blount.	15:24
Rhonda Mawhood	That's B-L-U-N-T or O-U-	15:28
Georgia Sutton	B-L-O-U-N-T.	15:30
Rhonda Mawhood	Were you brought up in the church, Ma'am?	15:36
Georgia Sutton	Oh yes. Oh yes, yes, yes. Sunday school every Sunday. Some Sundays, my mother worked but there wasn't any doubt about where we were going. In fact, the same lady that I mentioned was a Sunday school teacher and her husband was a deacon in the church. And when we were small before we could go by ourselves, she'd always come by the house and pick us up. My mother would always have us ready.	15:37
Georgia Sutton	If she had to go to work, we would be ready. And then we'd go on to Sunday school with her and we stayed the church. And then of course as time passed, we were in the junior choir and whatever. And yes, the church was an important part of the household.	16:10
Rhonda Mawhood	What kinds of community affairs was your church involved in?	16:37
Georgia Sutton	Do you mean for the children or?	16:44
Rhonda Mawhood	For the children or for anyone?	16:46
Georgia Sutton	Well, as I think back on it, one of the things that really used to stand out in our mind would be the programs that they would have at Christmastime. There were always, all of the Sunday school classes would participate and they would have a program and it would depend on the Sunday school teacher as to how her class was going to participate. Sometimes with recitations and if you were fortunate enough to be able to sing, there would be solos. But it was always a big Christmas program.	16:49
Georgia Sutton	What we really looked forward to was that each child would get a gift at Christmas from the Sunday school. That was one of the things. But they used to have several programs that would be children's day programs, Easter programs and as I say there, there was always the junior choir and other activities.	17:30
Georgia Sutton	I'm sure those might be something I'm missing or forgetting, but I do know the church provided activities for the children too. During the summer, every summer, it was something else we looked forward to. The church always had a big picnic and at least it was for the Sunday school. They would take—Since we are near the water, they would always take the Sunday school children to the beach.	17:59
Georgia Sutton	Of course the Sunday school would always prepare lemonade and whatever. But we mostly took our own sandwiches and that was always an enjoyable day too. We looked forward to it. And parents really would work hard to see that you got to go on that beach outing.	18:29
Rhonda Mawhood	Did the church charge the parents for the children for transportation or such things or—	18:53
Georgia Sutton	At that time, when it was so hard to get, I don't really remember but as I think back on it, I believe that was covered by the Sunday school. As long as you were a member of the Sunday school and attended regularly, I believe you were eligible to go because money was really hard to get. As I recall, I always worked after—	19:00
Georgia Sutton	In fact, I got my first job and I was in eighth grade. My education didn't come easy, didn't come very easy. But I'm glad but I certainly am glad that I did stay in school.	19:34
Rhonda Mawhood	What was your first job, ma'am?	19:50
Georgia Sutton	Babysitting. I had to keep the little girl. Now that I think back on it. I don't know really why, because the mother was there, but she paid me sort of to amuse the little girl. I would play with her and that type of thing. Of course, pay wasn't very much and I decided that I was going to do that. I was going to have to find something else.	19:52
Rhonda Mawhood	Did you find another kind of part-time job?	20:23
Georgia Sutton	Yes. Tell you the truth, I did domestic work, I really did because it paid more and I worked in the afternoon after school.	20:26
Rhonda Mawhood	Did you work for one family or was it a different family?	20:36
Georgia Sutton	Well, when I first started out I worked for two different—It was three different families. One day here, one day there and one day someplace else. But as time passed, I think I did that one year and the next year, I worked with a private family only with that family.	20:39
Georgia Sutton	In fact, I worked with that family until I finished high school and I worked with that family when I went to college. In fact, when I finished college, the man that I worked for, well, let's put it like this, now that I look back on it, he had clout here. So he asked me if I were interested in teaching here.	21:00
Georgia Sutton	And I thought about it. He said, "I know the county—" At that time we had not merged into one system. We were two systems. And he told me, he said—Of course that was, they were still segregated, but he'd said, "I know the county superintendent very well and I can certainly put in a good word for you if you apply." I thought about it and I decided that I didn't want to work here. So I applied out of state and got a job on my own.	21:29
Rhonda Mawhood	Why was it that you decided not to work in New Bern, Ma'am?	22:12
Georgia Sutton	I don't know. For one thing I told you that state of Georgia attracted me because of the way they paid. And then too, I felt that I had grown up and I sort of wanted to be on my own. And of course then it was unheard of for a young lady to get an apartment, you stayed home until you got married. If you didn't ever get married, you were just home. So I just sort of wanted to be on my own and I knew that if I taught someplace else, I could. And I was.	22:13
Rhonda Mawhood	Where did you live when you were teaching in Georgia, Ma'am?	22:57
Georgia Sutton	I had a room with a family. It was almost like being at home, really. Because there were three of us living there and she protected us and looked out for us. I said, "Oh gosh, I may as well be at home." I said, "I may as well be at home." But I really didn't mind because it just wasn't that different from what I did at home.	23:00
Rhonda Mawhood	The families whom you worked for when you did domestic work before you became a teacher, how did the different families treat you?	23:34
Georgia Sutton	Now, so far as the last job, the last one that I've worked with so long, well, let's put it like this, they were the regular Southern family. They treated me all right, but as an equal, no. That just was unheard of.	23:48
Georgia Sutton	I had to go. So I said, as long as they treat me decently, I'll work and then when I finish, I don't have to do it anymore. That's exactly what I did. But believe it or not, after I started to teach, I did go back and speak to them once or twice because they were fairly nice. But things were segregated and of course they—That's just the way it was. That was a fact of life.	24:15
Rhonda Mawhood	Where was it that you went to elementary and high school, Ma'am? Which schools?	25:02
Georgia Sutton	Well, I really started when I started at, I think it was the Dufftown School that has long been torn down. I think I went over there one through four. I think that's the way it was. And then I came to West Street School and as I say, that was consolidated too.	25:08
Georgia Sutton	It was—Because the high school was right there too. So when you finished elementary school, you just changed buildings and you went over to the high school and all of it was right there on the same site.	25:42
Rhonda Mawhood	What are your memories of school?	26:01
Georgia Sutton	Let's see. As I think back on it, I had some good teachers somewhere down the line. In fact, I know, I know of some, I know that my very first teacher now that I look back on it was exceptional. As I told you, when I went to school I could read and when I first started, I had heard what the others were doing. So I sort of began to misbehave because I'd do it and then I'd want to talk to the others.	26:09
Georgia Sutton	But she realized that. I look back on it now and she changed. I wasn't doing what the rest of the children were doing because I look over there at the next child's paper, I said, "That's not what I'm doing." But she realized that I could read already and that I did not need to do what others were doing.	26:46
Georgia Sutton	So my work was challenging. I really wasn't doing what the others were doing. So I did. I've had some good teachers along the way. I can't say all of them were good teachers, but I don't think anyone has all good teachers. There are some who stand out in your memory more than others who are caring and who are really interested in you and want to see you do well.	27:11
Rhonda Mawhood	Did your teachers ever come to your home, Ma'am?	27:45
Georgia Sutton	Yes. Now that was a requirement. And it was a requirement when I started teaching, that you must visit the homes and get to know the parents. When I first started working, the first job I had, I remember in a faculty meeting he told us and by the way, it's very interesting the way education sort of reverts back to some of the things that you had done previously.	27:47
Georgia Sutton	For example, when I first started teaching, the theme was, you must teach the whole child. I know that sounds familiar to you now, doesn't it?	28:25
Rhonda Mawhood	It does now, but it's supposed to be new now.	28:37
Georgia Sutton	Take my word for it. It is not new. That was the thing. Teach the whole child. A part of visiting part of your duties, you had to visit the children in your class. And as I recall, he told this joke in faculty meeting one day. He said that he had a teacher who was visiting a parent, a child and a parent.	28:42
Georgia Sutton	He said that the parent really acted like she didn't want to be bothered. She really did not want to be bothered with that teacher as the saying goes. He told us, he said that this teacher was unusual. Say she sensed that the parent had not accepted her say. So at that time, obviously they did not have running water in that area. She was washing in the tub. So when the teacher came, she was trying to talk to her about her child and said, lady kept right on washing and was really ignoring her.	29:16
Georgia Sutton	So he said, this young teacher said it. Now, she's not going to do this to me. So she jumped in the tub and she helped her. She washed and she was ringing clothes and talking and said that the parent just stopped and turned around and looked at her.	30:05
Georgia Sutton	She said, "Well, okay, if you going to help here, you should come over here to this tub." So she really actually helped the lady to wash, I understand. And the lady began to talk to her. But I understand that she just really did not talk to the teachers. But this lady really got next to her and they say she actually talked to her and she could help the child. Yes, we were required to visit homes and then in turn, you wrote it up. The principal did not take your word for it. It had to be a part of your record. That helped too. Now, I cannot say that this in times as they are today. I don't think that would work.	30:24
Rhonda Mawhood	These home visits?	31:14
Georgia Sutton	Not all home visits because there are some areas—I don't know. And especially and I'm going to break this down by color because there are some areas, if a White went into that area, I think they'd have to be awfully careful because it might not come out the way they went in.	31:17
Georgia Sutton	I don't know if home visits now would actually work as well as it did then. As I say, that was a segregated situation. There was something then that the teachers were a leading part of the community. They were well thought of.	31:49
Georgia Sutton	When I first started to work, a teacher had to be very, very careful about social life. You just could not go and do certain things and then you would go teach in the classroom.	32:16
Rhonda Mawhood	What kinds of things, Ma'am?	32:32
Georgia Sutton	For example, let's say you might like to go to clubs. That was a no-no. If a parent saw you out there and it got back to the school board, the chances are there would be some repercussions. Maybe you might not get fired, but you certainly would be called in.	32:33
Georgia Sutton	You were expected to attend church in the community, whether you joined it or not. You didn't always have to join if you did not want to, but you were really expected to be a role model for the children. I cannot say that every teacher did what it was supposed to.	32:58
Georgia Sutton	But basically on a whole, the teachers were well thought of, very well respected. You were an important cog in that machine. Of course that is not that way today.	33:18
Rhonda Mawhood	Now, these behavioral rules, were they true for male and female teachers alike?	33:30
Georgia Sutton	Mostly for female, I'm afraid. The males and that has always been. Men usually do what they want to a point without any repercussions, really. Now men. And so men usually went where they wanted and then most of the things they wanted to do but it was the ladies who had to be careful.	33:42
Rhonda Mawhood	Did you feel that these norms or these requirements were reasonable	34:12
Georgia Sutton	Well, when I first started, I didn't think they were very reasonable. I thought that as long as you did what you were supposed to do in the classroom, that the community did not have any right to demand certain things of you on your free time.	34:23
Georgia Sutton	I'll tell you the truth, I still feel that way. As long as—But now I do not say that you need to go out in this, go out and shoot someone or whatever. I do think you need to be a role model for the children. But I cannot see the community putting such high demands on teachers because they're human too. I think they have a right to live their lives as long as it's decent, the way they'd like to live other than worrying about, "I can't be seen here, I can't be seen there, I can't do this, I can't do the other."	34:49
Georgia Sutton	But I do think that teachers—Well, teachers do need to be a role model to a certain point. Because when a student can walk up to you and tell you about what you are doing, then you don't have the respect of the student.	35:33
Georgia Sutton	In this day and age, they will walk up to you and tell you. And they don't have to be high school students either. And you see some of that goes back also to the homes. When I was brought up, the adults did not sit and discuss the teacher in a derogatory manner.	35:56
Georgia Sutton	If they were going to say it, they never said it before you. So you didn't hear that. And so that it would not make a difference when you went to that classroom because you did not really know what your parents actually thought. I'm sure they talked about some teachers, but they did not do it before students and the children. And that made a big difference too, in the attitude that a child would have.	36:27
Georgia Sutton	Most of the time, a parent would tell you that you have done something and that the teacher's not on you for nothing. You have done something. They will look at it from that angle, even though maybe they might feel that you're being unfair to their child and we'll look into it, but they never discussed it before the child so that the child can go back to classroom next day and, "My Mama said this and that, and she's going to come out here and get you." Or, "She doesn't like what you did to me." Most parents did not do that. And that made a big difference in the attitude of the children too, toward the teacher and school.	36:54
Georgia Sutton	Now, I will not say that there were not some parents who—Some parents did go to school and most of the time, if they had to say something to the teacher, they certainly did it in the office or somewhere where the children did not know that it was being said. And I still think that's a good thing because when you discuss it with a child and you tell the child how you feel and what is it? What's that saying? "That old teacher shouldn't do this to you and that old teacher's not giving you a chance." Then it has a lot to do with child's attitude towards school and the teacher too.	37:40
Rhonda Mawhood	When you were teaching a second, were you able to teach students African or African-American history or African-American literature, were you able to teach them about their own specific cultural heritage?	38:37
Georgia Sutton	The only way you were going to would do that, you'd have to sneak that in Now. It was just never included in textbooks. Some teachers did it. It was a part of their curriculum but not of the schools.	38:54
Georgia Sutton	Now, I was very fortunate when I was in school, I had African American history and I had North Carolina history too, but I was fortunate it was taught. I do know something about my cultural heritage and whatever. But the children today know very little. I will tell you why. For one thing, the White teachers are not knowledgeable of African-American history and they don't want to be.	39:14
Georgia Sutton	The majority of them could care less about a Black child's heritage and he's being cheated. I feel very strongly about that. And I have read social studies books and it mentioned Martin Luther King, might mention Harriet Tubman. It might mention maybe Booker T. Washington. Another one is George Washington Carver. But basically talking about, well maybe the father of Black history children never heard of that man in their lives.	39:56
Georgia Sutton	There are some outstanding scientists, outstanding doctors, outstanding educators that children—And not only Black children, White children need to know about it too as well. Not included. Now, I feel very strongly that that is wrong.	40:46
Georgia Sutton	We are forced to learn about White America because that's taught then I think it should be included. It all the way down the line when and I don't think it ought to be pulled out and discussed in February only. These people who did things and were important. It should be a strand in American history. As you go along from one phase of history to another, the Blacks ought to be included, who were important in that era of were important in doing things. But it isn't. It's an injustice to Black children. I've always felt that.	41:13
Rhonda Mawhood	What did your teachers teach you when you were in school yourself about American government and society?	42:07
Georgia Sutton	Well, on a whole, they followed the White book and we were taught the principles of government. We were taught the constitution and most of them naturally pulled out certain amendments, especially for the Black children. But on a whole, curriculum wide, we learned about White America and the White American government government because there were very, very few of us in it then. Practically none.	42:18
Georgia Sutton	When you began to talk about role models, there's still—There should be more role models other than athletes. I don't have anything against Michael Jordan. I think he has done wonderfully well. But there ought to be other role models as well. Now here and there, you see a Black news commentator. Here and there, but not that many. We are not in places.	42:58
Georgia Sutton	Well that's the way American society is. We have not, and we still cannot get certain jobs. Even though you might be qualified and that's a way of life too. I know you are aware of that. There are a lot of injustices. But I will say this, I don't know of any other country I would want to live in, but there are a lot of injustices.	43:42
Georgia Sutton	And then probably as time passes, and frankly speaking, so for a civil rights concern, I think we have gone backward.	44:20
Rhonda Mawhood	Backwards since when, Ma'am?	44:29
Georgia Sutton	From the time when Martin Luther King and some of the Black Americans who worked for civil rights. It has taken on, the way I will put it is, a different flavor. There are subtleties now that the Black American, if he's not aware of, it's being done to him but you have to be quite aware of it.	44:32
Rhonda Mawhood	Discrimination basically.	45:06
Georgia Sutton	Yes, yes, it's being done every day, but it's being done in a way that if you're not careful, it's not readily—Well, you will not notice it. For example, of course I know there's supposed to be a law there. I think that when you fill out out an application, they're not supposed to they ask race and whatever. But there are ways, there are certain questions there that when you answer, it's asked in such a way they know whether you are Black or White.	45:07
Georgia Sutton	So it's been still being done, but it's just in a different way. Whereas as I recall when I was growing up, I never will forget. Belks was downtown in the downtown area and I remember I was a little girl and I went in the store with my mother and there was a White fountain and a Black one, one for the Blacks. I asked my mother, I said, I was small. I said, "Can I go over there and get some water from that fountain over there?" She said, "No, that's for Whites." I said, "Well, why can't I drink water from there? What's the difference in the water over here and the water over there?"	46:04
Georgia Sutton	She said, "Number one—".	46:56

Georgia Sutton	Where we'd drink water, she said, "That's just plain water," from the fountain. So I looked at it, and then I didn't understand. But I know one day I went down there and I said, "I'm going to drink some water from that other fountain today." I said, "I'm going to see if it's any different." So I looked all around to see who was looking, and I didn't see anybody looking. I rushed over to that fountain, and I drank the water, and I said, "Well, this water's no different from any other water." I said, "I wonder why we can't go over here and drink this water?" But it was hard for me to understand why I could not go over there and drink water from that fountain, and I had to go over here to this fountain.	0:01
Rhonda Mawhood	How old were you when you did that, ma'am?	0:51
Georgia Sutton	Well, I'm sure I was probably about six or seven, maybe. But I do remember distinctly that I looked all around 'cause I didn't want to get in any trouble, and I wanted to see if anybody was looking. I rushed over there to that fountain, 'cause I had to taste that water to see.	0:53
Rhonda Mawhood	Were there other times when you or people you knew broke the rules as they stood for segregation?	1:17
Georgia Sutton	When I came back here, that was during the time of Martin Luther King and this big push for civil rights. I never will forget this. Now, I was young, but I was an adult, and I remember that Kress Department Store had a lunch counter, but they refused to serve Blacks. We had a man who worked with the civil rights, and I never will forget, I went downtown one day and he had—they were youngsters, really, high school children or high school and college children. They were actually boycotting Kress. I can tell you the Black community followed those children. No one went into Kress. Well, at that time I had a neighbor who, she was very comical. She did not have that much formal education, and she went downtown that day, and they were boycotting Kress. She don't understand. So she went in Kress and bought something. So when she came out, one of the youngsters explained to her what they were trying to do. They told her, said, "But you bought something." She grabbed the package and she ran back into Kress.	1:28
Georgia Sutton	She told me, she said, "And I went back in there," she said, "and I told them they had to take it back because I wanted my money back, that our children were out there on that line and I meant I wanted my money back." So she said the clerk, who was White, as usual, told her, "Well, I'm sorry, ma'am, you can't get your money back." She told us, said, "I just went to the door," she said, "and I'm going to get my money back." She said that the clerk told her, "Well, I'll have to go get the manager." She told me that she said, and it was really comical, she said, "Well, you go get the manager and you tell the manager to bring his mother along with him, and I am going to get my money back." She said, "Now I will tell the manager, his mother, his father, and whoever he brings," say, "now he can go get the policeman, but I'm going to get my money back."	3:29
Georgia Sutton	Well, I thought it was very, very comical, but she felt very strongly that whatever was being done to help us as a race, then she would be a part of it, and I admired her for it. But of course, now, I didn't even go that way. I kept on going wherever I was going. Eventually Kress opened that counter, but people didn't use it that much, and they eventually had to go out of business. I have always believed, I don't have any proof, that because of that boycott, they really lost some of the trade that they had. Now that stands out in my memory, and those were youngsters. That was during the time that they were having the sit-in in Greensboro, the counter sit-in, and if I'm not mistaken, Jesse Jackson was involved. He was a student there at that time. So they were doing it in Greensboro and even down here, it had spilled over down here too.	4:31
Rhonda Mawhood	Did you eat it Kress's after they opened it?	5:49
Georgia Sutton	No, I never wanted to eat there after that. I just really wasn't interested in giving them my money. So as I think back on it, even speaking about in Montgomery, Alabama where the Civil Rights Movement actually started with Rosa Parks and the bus, as I think about it, when I was working in Georgia, I didn't have a car. So I used to ride the bus and of course, all of us, well, we had to sit in the back of the bus, near the back. But going to Georgia, as I recall, I had to change in Augusta and there was a base, Army base there somewhere. I don't remember the name, but it had to be one somewhere around Augusta.	5:51
Georgia Sutton	I was always very fortunate because there were Black servicemen on the bus, and they would always get up to give us a seat, and they would stand until they had to get off. So I guess we were very fortunate. Now today, you don't find too much of getting up for anyone else, but that was one of the things that the men were really, really good about. Once in a while, once in a while, a White man would get up and give a Black lady a seat, 'cause I remember when it was after a holiday, the bus was really crowded and there were no seats. This man was sitting probably about halfway the bus.	7:01
Rhonda Mawhood	A White man?	8:10
Georgia Sutton	Yes, White man. I was standing and he looked at me and he asked me, "Would you like to sit down?" He said, "You have been standing there for some time," and I told him, "Yes, I would. He got up and let me have his seat, and he told me, he said, "I'm glad to do that for you."	8:11
Rhonda Mawhood	Was there someone in the seat beside him?	8:30
Georgia Sutton	Yes, another White man.	8:33
Rhonda Mawhood	What was his reaction?	8:34
Georgia Sutton	He didn't say anything. He looked out the window. He didn't say anything to me, and I didn't say anything to him.	8:36
Rhonda Mawhood	How did you feel about that when that man gave you his seat?	8:42
Georgia Sutton	Well, I thought, I said all Whites are not alike. It's just like anything else. You cannot say that all Whites are racist completely. I think the man just saw or thought that I would like to sit down and probably that I was tired, and he offered his seat, and he probably would've done it for anyone.	8:50
Rhonda Mawhood	What were relations in New Bern or in Georgia where you were teaching between the African American community and the police like?	9:31
Georgia Sutton	Well, let's put it like this. Of course, I really didn't come in contact with so much of that by teaching. But from some of the things that I heard, they were not very nice to Afro-Americans when they got in jail. They beat them, but you see, I don't have any proof about this because the short time that I was down there, I didn't know anyone who had actually been in jail, per se. But there were some horrible rumors going around that they beat them with hoses to keep from being able to detect that they had been beaten. Yes, there were some horrible stories, but I never really knew whether they were true or not. I suspected that they were.	9:46
Rhonda Mawhood	Would you say that the people you knew were afraid of the police?	11:01
Georgia Sutton	Well, I worked in a small town and I can't say that they were actually afraid because they knew them. They were all White, but they knew them. They knew that that was Mr. John's son who lived down on the corner or whatever. I can't say they were really afraid, no.	11:09
Rhonda Mawhood	When you were growing up in New Bern and later on when you were an adult, what kinds of things did you know about the White supremacist activities, the Ku Klux Klan, for example?	11:34
Georgia Sutton	Well, let me put it this. Around this area, it has always been said that the Ku Klux Klan is very strong, even that is rumored today, that they're still organized around the Vanceboro area. What was the saying they used to say? Something about don't get caught in that Vanceboro area after dark, some sort of saying. It has been rumored that there are well-known Whites who are members by night. Over the years there was not any proof, and you know very well, I'm not going to call any name, but there have been rumors that there were prominent Whites who were members of the Ku Klux Klan, by name it was said.	11:55
Rhonda Mawhood	When you were a child, when were growing up, did your mother or other adults tell you about such people?	13:13
Georgia Sutton	Oh, yes, it was discussed.	13:22
Rhonda Mawhood	What kind of things did they tell you about those people?	13:31
Georgia Sutton	In fact, I remember reading about several cases in Alabama I believe it was, where they actually killed this boy. I think he was about 14, probably, that he was coming from Detroit or some northern area. As I remember, let's see what —I really cannot get that together, but they ended up lynching that boy.	13:38
Rhonda Mawhood	Emmett Till?	14:15
Georgia Sutton	That that was one of the cases, yes. That was one of the cases, yes. There was a case here in North Carolina, if I'm not mistaken, Yanceyville, don't really remember, but they had charged some Black man with ogling a White woman; looking, actually looking. I thought that was the most ridiculous charge I had ever heard of. Now what could he do by looking? But that's what he was charged with.	14:17
Rhonda Mawhood	Do you remember about how old you were at that time, ma'am?	14:59
Georgia Sutton	No. No, I don't, but I do remember that specific case because it had gotten a lot of publicity, and it was really talked about in our neighborhood.	15:01
Rhonda Mawhood	What kinds of places would people gather in your neighborhood? Where would people gather? What were some of the spots where they would meet when you were growing up?	15:19
Georgia Sutton	Well, I know do know that there was a store around the corner where some of the men would gather and talk about politics or whatever and maybe drink sodas and then go on home. But actual meeting places, other than that, I can't remember.	15:38
Rhonda Mawhood	What about places like barbershops or beauty parlors?	16:04
Georgia Sutton	Yeah. Well, I guess, see, I don't know about the barbershop, but I guess, well, I guess they did, probably. Now I just happened to remember this little store around the corner that the men in the neighborhood would go there and sit down and smoke and drink sodas and talk about first one thing and then the other, probably ladies and, 'cause I know they weren't always talking about politics. But I do remember that 'cause I had an uncle who used to go sit around to that store.	16:09
Rhonda Mawhood	How old were you when you started going to the beauty parlor, ma'am?	16:53
Georgia Sutton	Well, let me put it like this. That same neighbor where I stayed, had a daughter who had taken a course in cosmetology, and so she used to do my hair for nothing most of the time. I never will forget when I was growing up, the first time she did my hair she did those little Shirley Temple curls. I remember how upset my mother was when she came home and found out that she had done my hair and had not said anything to her about it. She would do my hair at home, so same thing.	16:59
Rhonda Mawhood	Were you a very little girl when you got the Shirley Temple curls?	17:54
Georgia Sutton	Yes, I was about four or five. I hadn't even started school. I think maybe mostly what my mother was concerned about was that she had not been licensed very long, and she probably thought, "Well, okay, she's using my daughter as a Guinea pig," sort of. She just looked at it very carefully, but I think she did a good job. I was pleased with it.	17:58
Rhonda Mawhood	You liked the curls?	18:33
Georgia Sutton	Oh, I loved the curls. That meant I could go around the neighborhood with all these curls and the other girls didn't have them.	18:34
Rhonda Mawhood	When your mother did your hair, how did she do it?	18:46
Georgia Sutton	Oh, my mother, she believed in braids. She would braid it and put bows on it.	18:49
Rhonda Mawhood	When you did start going to the beauty parlor, what kinds of things did women talk about in the beauty parlor? Do you remember?	19:03
Georgia Sutton	Well, men were our favorite topic, this particular man who he was taking out or whatever, I don't know, just things in general. Sometimes it'd be church affairs, what's being done in the various churches and various programs. It would be various things talked about.	19:11
Rhonda Mawhood	Did they ever talk about politics?	19:38
Georgia Sutton	Yes, but women, I don't know, that just was not their thing that much. You had some who would talk about it and who felt that—but on a whole, women didn't really talk about politics. I was talking to a friend of mine last night, we were talking about—it's the lady I grew up with. We were classmates, and we were talking. In other words, she had mentioned something about how rich Michael Jordan is and all the money that he has and how American society is set up so that some people have it all and others have nothing, I mean just really nothing. Because at the time she was discussing this elderly lady, she said that she visited and the lady had a fan sitting in the middle of the floor, she said, and it was just like an oven in there. I said, "Well, you know the fan probably was blowing out hot air." She said it just almost brought tears to her eyes that—she said, "But it wasn't anything I could do."	19:40
Georgia Sutton	She said, "So I went home," she said, and she said she had talked to her husband. She said, and the only thing she said she thought about that she could do that maybe would help the lady. She said, I just went to the store and bought a lot of ice cream and carried to her. She said, "And I thought maybe that would help cool her off." She said it was just like an oven. We were talking about how society is set up so that there really, as it has been said, is the haves and have-nots. Some people just have it all, everything, and other people, nothing, very little in between. So in the midst of that conversation, she asked me did I remember Joe Louis? I said, "You're talking about the Brown Bomber?" She said, "Yes, yes, yes." She said, "You know how much money he made?" I said, "Well, yes, he didn't have that much formal training."	21:08
Georgia Sutton	I said, "So during that time," I said, "he couldn't handle his money 'cause he just wasn't able to," I said, "and the people he hired took advantage of him." She was talking about how he died penniless and broke. She brought up the fact that nowadays there are, in other words, there's a stamp, postage stamp out. I told her, I said, "Well, wouldn't it have been wonderful in his very last days as he was penniless, owed the government and things had not worked out so well that they would've honored him by having that postage stamp then when he could enjoy it and feel proud?" I said, "It's so sad that they wait until you die to do these things." So we were just discussing how American society is set up so that some have it all and there are few in between and then there are a whole lot on that bottom rung with nothing, and especially the elderly.	22:15
Rhonda Mawhood	One of the things that I'm interested in is small businesses in African American communities that don't exist in as large numbers now as they used to.	23:35
Georgia Sutton	They're practically gone, because when I grew up, there were several little neighborhood stores. My mother would say, "Here, take this," because I can remember when I was growing up, you could buy almost enough groceries for a week for a dollar. In the Black American community, we knew how to survive and by that, those storekeepers knew there was very little money available. They'd sell you five cents worth of flour, measure it out, or five cents worth of meal, because they knew that the average family didn't have very much. That is the way they had to sell it, and that is the way they sold it. You could take almost a dollar and a quarter and buy probably everything you need. That is how they took care of the Black community, helping each other, 'cause you go to store and buy, they had penny candy. I never will forget the kind of candy that I used to love, you probably never heard of it. We used to call them B B Bats.	23:48
Rhonda Mawhood	Yes.	25:27
Georgia Sutton	You have heard of them?	25:27
Rhonda Mawhood	Taffy?	25:29
Georgia Sutton	Yes.	25:29
Rhonda Mawhood	I used to eat them too.	25:29
Georgia Sutton	Did you? Well, we used to call them B B Bats and didn't have that much money, but whenever we could get a penny, we'd rush to the store and get a B B Bat. There was another kind of candy I liked. You might not know about this one either, Squirrel Nuts?	25:32
Rhonda Mawhood	Nope.	25:51
Georgia Sutton	Never heard of it.	25:52
Rhonda Mawhood	Not those, no. What are those?	25:52
Georgia Sutton	They were small pieces of candy. They had little pieces of nut. They were not chocolate, but it was more of a caramel type of candy, and we always called them Squirrel Nuts. Then I didn't ever care that much for this, but there was another kind of candy called Black Cow. You ever heard of that one?	25:57
Rhonda Mawhood	Not that one either. I think maybe you guys might be the only one.	26:18
Georgia Sutton	Now that was truly caramel and it was on a stick, and it would last a long time because you could suck. Yes. Now that I look back on it, really we didn't have a whole lot, but we were a very close-knit family, and I guess you could say we were happy. So I know that in a lot of cases it does not take how much money you have, but it's what you do with that you do have and the relationship of the family, and that's important. I think that is one of the things that in today's society, I think it's going down the drain. A lot of that has come along because women, a lot of women are working now. But now as I say, my mother worked anyway, and a lot of the other families, we didn't have any choice but to work.	26:26
Georgia Sutton	But somehow or the other, things have changed to such a point wherein children are looking out for themselves, and that's getting back to the extended family. When someone worked, and I can remember that once in a while, if the children were old enough, they would leave them there by themselves, the neighbor would look in on them. I can also remember, and I remember one day my mother left, my mother was working another job and she was going to be late coming in. So she asked my neighbor, the same lady, to look in on us and be sure that we didn't leave the yard number one, and number two, do what we were supposed to do, 'cause she had told her what we were supposed to do. I remember distinctly, she told us to wash those dishes and sweep the kitchen. She said, "I mean for this porch to be swept too when I come home."	27:46
Georgia Sutton	We played around and played around and when we looked, it was almost time for my mother to come home. So my neighbor came over there, she said, "You all haven't washed these dishes." She said, "You better get in there right now, wash those dishes before your mother get here," say, "because she will kill you," and we rushed to the kitchen. You have never seen such dish washing such sweeping and trying to get through before my mother got there, but children will be children. But as getting back to it, the extended family really played a big part in our neighborhood. Whenever they saw you do something and it was not right, you could count on it, they were going to tell it, and they were going and the parents would really reprimand you in some way.	29:09
Georgia Sutton	Of course, they didn't always, and especially my mother, mother didn't do a lot of whipping. She really didn't. Once in a while we might get it, but there were other ways that she handled it. Of course, you knew that if you did certain things that she—in other words, now, we call it taking privileges. She would tell you, "You will not do this. You will not do that. You didn't do what I told you to do." A lot of people think that years ago, all that people did was just paddle and beat. I can say that I got it once in a while, but certainly not the way people say. In fact, I don't know of any family where the parents just beat them up 'cause children were not hard to control. As time has passed, you know you were going to mind, and you knew you were going to do what they said, and they saw to it.	30:12
Rhonda Mawhood	What kinds of privileges might be taken away from you, ma'am?	31:35
Georgia Sutton	For example, as we grew up and well, especially in high school, sometimes they would have plays, dramas or school parties. They were chaperoned, but when you had misbehaved, she would say, "No school party, forget it." I have known her to say, "And then go to bed early. Get your dinner and wash the dishes, and you go to bed because you don't know how to act." She used to tell us that all the time, "No, I don't want to hear it. You don't know how to act, go to bed, and I don't want to hear anything after you get in there either." That meant that you weren't going in there and play either because you had to go to bed. Of course, we'd go to bed, but we didn't go to sleep. We might would talk very softly, but that was about all you could do. If she decided she'd come in there and look, you'd better go to sleep. I don't want hear anymore talking." In other words, if you were punished, you were punished.	31:39
Rhonda Mawhood	Did your mother remarry at all?	33:06
Georgia Sutton	No, she never did.	33:08
Rhonda Mawhood	Did you ever talk about the possibility of her remarrying?	33:14
Georgia Sutton	Well, after we grew up or as I grew older, she said that because she had two girls, she said, "I'm sure I could have found someone maybe," she said, "but I was not going to take any chance on any man rearing my two girls." That's why she never did remarry. She said she thought that she could do better, well, not better, maybe, but she said that she just didn't want to go through the hassle. She said, "Suppose I had had some more children," she said, "and I would not allow him to treat you all differently," she said, "and that would be a possibility." That's why she never remarried.	33:18
Rhonda Mawhood	I never asked you what it was that made you decide to become a teacher.	34:18
Georgia Sutton	Well, there were several things. You must remember there were not many avenues open to us. Teaching was one of them. In fact, it was the main one. As I told you, it was prestigious to be a teacher in the community. You were looked up to. Then too, to tell you the truth, I really liked children. I always have liked to read, and that's why I went into library science. It was that book thing that got me involved in that, and I still read a great deal. But as I say, there were not many avenues open to us. You could be a teacher, you could be a doctor, but there were so few of us who could even think about it, the money, the books. Once in a while, you would have a student who would really try to do this. But doctors, lawyers and that type of thing, there just were not many of them 'cause we didn't go into that field because we didn't—really that, it was just money.	34:24
Georgia Sutton	A lot of it was really money, and families just couldn't not put a child through, and you couldn't work enough to put yourself through law school. The only way, in most cases you could do that, you'd have to come out a year and work and then go back. Sometimes it would take you, like my mother used to put it, forty forever to finish. Once in a while a Black child would have a benefactor. A good student would have a benefactor, and a White person would help that child to go through school. But you see, that wasn't every day. That was now and then, and when I came out of school, scholarships were not available. When I finished, I did get some cash awards from some Black organizations. But you must remember, Black organizations do not have the money that White organizations have. So as I recall, I got a cash award from Elks, the Black Elks Organization, and I got one from the local Calendar Club. That club was a local group made up of professionals, I think.	36:09
Georgia Sutton	But other than that, it just wasn't available. You might be able to work after you get there. They had some jobs available in the cafeteria and the library and first one place and the other. But times have really changed 'cause there are so many scholarships now available in all areas. There are a lot of avenues open to Black students now that were not open to us when I was in school. To tell you the truth, my sister was extremely, extremely lucky to come back when she finished and to get a job out there at Craven Terrace. Now, had it not been a Black housing project, she wouldn't have had a job either because of, in White corporate America, they were not hiring Black secretaries, not at all. So that is one of the things that I'm glad to see that other avenues have opened up to Black students and especially Black deserving students.	37:53
Rhonda Mawhood	This is something that I'm particularly interested in, so that's why I ask. Was beauty culture, cosmetology seen as an option for any of your friends from high school?	39:14
Georgia Sutton	Yes. Yes, but in my class, I don't recall a one that went that way or decided that they wanted to do that. It was an option, yes.	39:27
Rhonda Mawhood	Was it seen as a desirable option do you think?	39:39
Georgia Sutton	Not really. Thinking back, all the classmates that I had from high school, if they did go to school, let me see, 1, 2, 3, it might have been more, I know there were three of us who went into the field of education. There was one who went into business, and she ended up working on the base. Yes, I don't remember exactly what she was doing, but it was some kind of office work. As time passed, when she retired, she was supervisor of some kind. Males, let see, there was one who went to A&T. He went into the ROTC, and he was in the Korean crisis. When he retired or came out of the service, he was captain. Of course, he was a commissioned officer by being in ROTC. I have another classmate who was able to pass the postal exam. I think he was in Philadelphia. He was a postman. But as I say, and then we had some who just managed to latch on to some good jobs, not here high up. They had to leave, just wasn't, and it still isn't that much offered here.	39:45
Rhonda Mawhood	Here being New Bern?	41:52
Georgia Sutton	Yeah, within this area, and especially for Black students. That is why a lot of us went into education because that is what was open for us. You either did that or you were a minister. As I said, a few were lucky enough to be employed in a Black business as a secretary 'cause they certainly weren't hiring you in White ones. But yes, there were some who did go into cosmetology. But as I think back on it, we just didn't have any classmates that did.	41:54
Rhonda Mawhood	How were beauticians seen in the community? How were they regarded?	42:37
Georgia Sutton	As a skilled. They certainly were not regarded as highly as a teacher or a minister or even a secretary. As I said, it was sort of a skilled. They called it more or less a trade.	42:44
Rhonda Mawhood	Thank you.	43:13
Georgia Sutton	But I will tell you that probably some of them might be making more than we are making now. Okay. Have I answered everything?	43:13
Rhonda Mawhood	Everything, but I'd like to ask you some more things if you have some time.	43:25
Georgia Sutton	Well, okay.	43:28
Rhonda Mawhood	I'd like to ask you about one thing, which is often difficult to ask about. If you don't have any comment to make, I'll certainly understand. I was wondering if you ever heard about anyone, any African Americans passing, passing either into White society or at times, occasionally passing for White?	43:31
Georgia Sutton	Oh, sure. Sure, I have. Not here. Naturally, not here, but very fair Black Americans, yes, ma'am. They would go other places and pass because there were advantages of being White. Sure, I imagine, I think, and they're probably still doing it.	43:59
Rhonda Mawhood	How were people who passed regarded by other African Americans?	44:35
Georgia Sutton	Well, let me put it like this. If they passed someplace else, this was home. So when they came home, they were a part of Black community. I do recall hearing about a case. I didn't know the lady, it was a big joke to her 'cause she was able to get a better job, and she said that's all she was interested in.	44:41
Rhonda Mawhood	Where did she move to from here?	45:17
Georgia Sutton	In the New York City area. Of course, you can go up there and get lost, really. It is such a large place. So what I assumed, and I might not be right, was that she worked in White corporate America during the day, and she lived in a place probably integrated. But I often wondered what would she do if they found out she was Black? But I don't really know whatever happened to her.	45:20
Rhonda Mawhood	Did you know if she was married?	46:01
Georgia Sutton	No, I don't. I really don't.	46:04
Rhonda Mawhood	Were people who passed blamed, would you say, by other African Americans?	46:08
Georgia Sutton	Well, I would put it this way, and this is happening today, mixed marriages, there are quite a few. I can see the results because the children are in school, and in some cases, the children are between the two parents. They're not as White as a White and not as dark skinned as an African American. The hair might be in between or it just might be straight like a White. But I can tell you this, and I do know this for a fact, my heart goes out to most of them because the Black children do not accept them, White ones don't either, so they're sort of in between. It's sad, because I do know of a case, the mother's White—	46:21

Georgia Sutton	—good students. And when they come to the library, White students go one way, Black students go another, and child is sort of lonely. Really.	0:01
Georgia Sutton	And I'll tell you this, that Whites were readily, not readily, but will accept a Black smart student. Within the classroom. I'm not saying that they're going to take them home with them or anything, but they will, if that child is smart, very smart, you can see that they will accept that child. And I always say this, that child's probably helping them with the lessons too. I've noticed that in some cases, that if a child's very, very smart, the Whites will accept him. As a classmate, so to speak. I will say again, I don't think they invite him home to dinner or anything, but they will accept him on school premises.	0:24
Georgia Sutton	And I have noticed that, and especially Black girls, how can I say it? They segregate themselves to a point. And being Black, I understand. I understand perfectly. Because you never really know whether the Whites have actually accepted you or not. So rather than go through that hassle, stick with your own. And that's understandable. But I guess, as I say, it's just the way of life.	1:34
Rhonda Mawhood	I'd like to ask you. You've talked about racism in the United States in the past and as it exists now, as it existed in the segregated period and as it exists now. Could I ask you where you have gotten the strength to be so aware of this, and yet you live and you are a strong person, and I'm wondering where you get that strength?	2:41
Georgia Sutton	Well, let me put it to you like this. I believe if you talk to just about anyone who grew up in a segregated situation, you are going to find those people will be ready to, in other words, you're readily adaptable to certain situations, and you have had to have strength in order to have survived.	3:16
Georgia Sutton	I'll tell you something my mother used to say. And I found it to be true, in a way. My mother used to say, "You know," she said, "White people really don't understand or know us very well." And I used to say, "Well, mama, why do you say that?" She used to say, "That lady that I work for is foolish enough to believe that I really like her." I said, "Well—" She said, "I'm not thinking about her one way or the other, just pay me what she owes me."	3:54
Georgia Sutton	And what I'm saying is that it has been, in recent years, that the average White has discovered that Blacks, and I'm going to say it this way, that Blacks do not love them per se. Because all along they thought, years ago, "Oh she's just so crazy about me. She works for me, she does this for me. And she's this, that and other. And she's just crazy about me." We've learned over the years to survive.	4:54
Georgia Sutton	And in a way, I'm sorry that the Black youth today has not had to go through some of the things that we have had to go through. But it has made survivors of us. And I learned too that I could smile, on the outside. My mother told me, "Nobody ever knows what goes through your head." She said, "You can afford to smile on the outside, get what you want and go where you, and go on."	5:34
Georgia Sutton	In other words, she was telling me, "You need to work. You've got to have the money to go to school. You do what you have to do to earn the money." She said, "And then when you earn your money, go where you have to go, do what you have to do. You don't have to tell anybody, 'I'm going to scrub your floor.'"	6:08
Georgia Sutton	Children don't see that nowadays, I don't think. They want it all now. And maybe they deserve it, I don't know. Times have changed. But it used to be an interesting thing to us because mama would always come home and tell what she had said and what she had done, and she'd have a big laugh about it.	6:34
Rhonda Mawhood	With the White woman—	7:00
Georgia Sutton	Yes. It'd be a big joke to us. But my mother learned to survive. She had two girls to raise, and she did what she had to do. That was a big joke to us.	7:01
Georgia Sutton	But you see, that's a side of Black life that Whites never see. And they never, I don't think, maybe it's not that way today, but they never felt that a Black was a thinker. Never thought that that Blacks thought about anything. But you can cool believe they did. And a lot of them who worked in their kitchen laughed about so many things that went on.	7:18
Georgia Sutton	And they laughed about it and say, "Oh, didn't I fool her?" It was always a big joke to us. And I used to enjoy it. Well, it used to sort of, how could I say it? It would make me feel better about some of the things that I had to suffer. I had to, what is it? I couldn't go into White restaurants and eat.	8:05
Georgia Sutton	And that brings back a situation wherein a White owner had a cafe and he only sold Blacks food out the back door. And I remember distinctly my mother told us, "You better not ever take one penny of my hard earning money there." She said, "Even if you can't go in there and sit down and eat," she said, "he could that you get it from the front door." She said, "You better not ever." She said, "If I ever even here that you go there." She said, "Now that, you don't have to do." Said, "Now, he doesn't have to spend your money." And I never forgot that. And I never went there either. And even as time passed and he let us in through the front door, I still wouldn't go.	8:36
Georgia Sutton	So over the years, some of the things have really been amusing to me, for people to assume that most Blacks do not think. And you'd be surprised at what goes on in some households. And my mother used to always say, "Don't ever let anybody beat you thinking." Say, "You have a head, use it."	9:42
Georgia Sutton	And right now I find myself thinking, "Why did she say that? Why did she do that?" And I sit down and think it out. And if you're not careful, I'll have an answer for whatever has happened. Not always right, but most of the time I can figure it out, what a person actually means when he says certain things to you. People don't use, sometimes they don't ever say what they actually mean.	10:18
Georgia Sutton	And we were brought up that way. My mother said, "Think." She put it like this, "You have a head to use it, for other than a hat rack." Because sometimes we would do things and she'd say, "Now, what is your head? Is it a hat rack?" And you knew you had not thought or you had done something without thinking. And she always said, "Use that head for something other than to hold a hat."	10:57
Rhonda Mawhood	Ms. Sutton, it's clear to me that you realized quite young that White people didn't know Black people, that they didn't—	11:42
Georgia Sutton	No.	11:47
Rhonda Mawhood	—know them. Would you say, in the past, and if you'd like, today, that Black people know White people?	11:48
Georgia Sutton	After I have thought about it, I will say this. Now, today, I don't think we know that much about Whites. But years back, when we were in the homes and we could see what actually made them tick, yeah, we knew more about you, about the Whites than you knew about us. Really did.	11:57
Georgia Sutton	But I can't say that now because there is not, how can I say it? Number one, we are not that close. There are not that many people who work in the homes. And especially all of the time, the way it used to be. You might have someone come in who would clean your house and leave. But years ago, a Black, if they had children, took care of the children. They cooked, they cleaned, and they were there most of the time. So they had to see how the family, they had to see what went on and to be able to draw conclusions. But no, I don't think we know quite as much now as we did. Certain things anyway. Because we are just not in the position to know.	12:29
Rhonda Mawhood	Well, thank very much, Ms. Sutton.	13:24
Georgia Sutton	Oh, you're welcome. And I sure hope I've helped.	13:30
Rhonda Mawhood	[indistinct 00:13:35].	13:32

Item Info

Title:

Georgia Sutton interview recording, 1993 July 30

Date:

July 30, 1993

Creator:

Sutton, Georgia Glasper

Contributor:

Mawhood, Rhonda Lyn

Description:

Name: Georgia Glasper Sutton; Date of birth: 1929-06-14; Place of birth: New Bern, NC; Occupation(s): educator; librarian; Residence: New Bern, NC
Informant ID: 309; Interviewed by: Rhonda Mawhood.

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Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-1999

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Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

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Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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Interview number: 724
6e9ec236-7934-4322-94bf-e0c3bb3cd83f
behindtheveil
btvnc06023
ark:/87924/r43b61p3j
38c8b7ac-e312-4200-a2d6-0fe8d24c31d5

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Georgia Sutton interview recording, 1993 July 30

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1. Georgia Sutton administrative file, 1993

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Georgia Sutton interview recording, 1993 July 30

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