Harry Forden interview recording, 1993 July 17
Loading the media player...
Transcript
Transcripts may contain inaccuracies.
Karen Ferguson | I'm going to be asking you a little bit about the place in which you grew up, the community in which you grew up, and the people you grew up with. | 0:01 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, I grew up in the Brooklyn community, which is in poverty, a low income area, where the people needed a lot of help, enabled them to better their condition and to become more aware of some of the things in life that they could not afford due to the living condition and the circumstance and the environment that they were surrounded by. It was a great experience for me because it helped me to realize so many things, and to help to uplift people from the condition that they didn't know about, the condition that they were surrounded by. | 0:11 |
Harry L. Forden | I started work at an early age in the local grocery store at the age of eight, and fortunately I was able to get this job because the store owner approached me, and he stated to me that he needed someone to sweep the floor, and in sweeping his floor, he liked my work so well that he gave me a permanent job starting at $4 a week. And from there, I stayed there until I graduated from high school. And after graduating from high school, I went two years of college at the Wilmington College Center, which is known as for the branch of the Federal State University. And it was hopeful that I would become a teacher, but due to circumstance, having to work and try to support my education, it was a little difficult. But finally I met a young lady. We got married and we had two children. | 1:18 |
Harry L. Forden | But I'm looking back over the years. I feel that I've had a very fruitful life. Having to start work at the age of eight and the service that I have been able to render to this community. I have devoted over 25 years of my life as far as working in this community. I served as chairman of the local anti-poverty program back in the '60s, which was very difficult days. This was during the days—Some of us during the days of the Wilmington Ten, and many of the students that participated in our local anti-poverty program—The program was associated with the Wilmington Ten. | 2:50 |
Harry L. Forden | And some of the things that really have stuck with me since that period was during the time that we had the riot, there were many people in the low income brackets suffered, because I can recall the Sunday after the riot, going to Sunday school and seeing many of the corner stores that had been looted and whatnot, and a lot of people, they paid for their groceries by the month, and so therefore they was left with a problem of trying to get food to live on to make out into the first part of the month. They were food strung everyway, but it was so damaged that a lot of people couldn't eat it. | 3:44 |
Harry L. Forden | I was a supervisor at American Standard [indistinct 00:04:43] Division during that period, and while serving as—I was also a member of the Good Neighbor Council, which is known as the Human Relation Council now. I was first vice chairman. And there were many times that I had to leave work at the request of the mayor of the city. Mayor Alsbrooks had made arrangement with my management that I could be called to meetings. They would sending police cars to take us back and forward to the meeting because of so much dangers that were there. | 4:38 |
Harry L. Forden | But the meetings were held to try to work out strategies and to try to gather information, whether we can more or less try to get those who were involved to [indistinct 00:05:38] then we come together and try to solve this as people. Fortunately, we accomplished some things, but over a short period of time, the whole thing got back to partly normal. I don't think it really ever got back to normal because there was a great loss, a lot of business in the area, and as you can see, in the area that I live in and on this business, some of the merchants never built back. They went to the suburbs and whatnot. | 5:26 |
Harry L. Forden | So we are looking forward to a new day, and the new day has come, by serving as precinct chairman of the Democratic Party in Brooklyn for over 25 years. We have been able to talk with a lot of politicians and to let them see some of the problems that we've had, and we've gotten some cooperation. As of today, we are still trying to work out and to make this area a little better for people. We've had the support of the Black churches also, and people from both races, so this has been very rewarding to me. | 6:12 |
Harry L. Forden | I have received many awards from my service. It is not altogether the rewards that I have received, but what has been done, and we are very grateful for what has been done. It could not have been done by me as a person, but we had to have people from outside of the area, and people within the area to come in and they were willing and sincerity in what needed to be done. So I feel that the growth, looking back from the '60s and looking back at the old segregation of the south— | 7:04 |
Harry L. Forden | So I worked at a department store after graduating from high school, local department store, and I can recall that at my age I was the oldest person on the job, but when some of the other fellows came in, I had to address them as "Mister." I also had to teach them, and their salary was more than mine. Unfortunately, we had a lunchroom, and they would go in and get their lunch, and I would have to—We would've come out and eat on the elevator shafts because we were told that there wasn't enough room, which we knew better. Also, when we had the bathrooms and the locker rooms, the Blacks would go and sit and use the restroom, and for some it was much better from others. If you were to bring trash up on the elevator, there was another person at the top of the rack to watch you throw the trash in the bin. | 7:44 |
Harry L. Forden | So things have changed a lot, and I think that both races has played a major part. Other words, we had to be willing to accept changes, although you and I know that some people still have not accepted changes to the fullness, but I feel that there've been much progress made in this area in the City of Wilmington. The City of Wilmington is one of the few places, and I can recall that progress—And we have not had as much inward fighting as you have in other states. | 9:09 |
Harry L. Forden | I contribute to a lot to what I have been able to accomplish by working with other people. And I'm fortunate that I have been able to serve, not only on the state level, but I've been able to serve locally. At one time I served as the national—As a state political action chairman for the NAACP, and one of the mottos that I use is that we should always be willing to cross the railroad track to help our brothers and sisters who are less fortunate than we are, and I feel that this community has done that. | 9:51 |
Harry L. Forden | We're in the process of trying to revitalate North Fourth Street, and participation has been great. The city has been real helpful. They've made available a consulting firm, and presently are making loans. They have approved over $200,000 to help small business to upgrade their business. So I feel that they [indistinct 00:11:15], and, I mean, they much has been conflict, but you got to work at it. You can't just sit and expect for someone else to do it. You have to more or less take the leadership into aspect, and fill in the leadership position. You have to roll up your sleeves and get out there and shake some bushes. | 10:34 |
Karen Ferguson | Right. Listen, [indistinct 00:11:42]. Sounds like you've had a pretty full life. | 11:37 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, I started back in those days, but above all, I have supported my church. Sunday school has been one thing that I've gone into for over 50 years, and I was the youngest man in the history of my church to be elected to the trustee board. | 11:48 |
Karen Ferguson | What church is that? | 12:09 |
Harry L. Forden | St. Phillip AME Church. And I've taught Sunday school, I've served as superintendent of Sunday school. I've served in practically every capacity with the exception of the student and the minister. But the people, they really appreciate what we have done, and they appreciate what we've done here in this business, because my mind tells I don't care who you are. When you come here, you are Mister or Misses, and courtesy and giving respect to others, you will be rewarded, whether it's financially, but perhaps in many other ways. And people, they advertise what service you give and how you treat them. So regardless to the color of a person's skin, I think that they deserve the respect of others, and then you will get it in return. | 12:13 |
Karen Ferguson | I was wondering if we could go back to your childhood for a little— | 13:18 |
Harry L. Forden | Okay. | 13:21 |
Karen Ferguson | —bit? Could you tell me a little bit about your family and what your parents did for a living? | 13:21 |
Harry L. Forden | Okay. I was born in the Brooklyn area. Presently I'm 59 years old. My mother and father, they had very little education. They had to more or less be taught to write their names. And even now we have some problems, because the teacher always taught us to spell it F-O-R-D-E-N, and some people, they spell it F-O-R-D-H-A-M. Because of my parents' lack of education. I was born in family of four boys. We lived in more or less a three-room house. We had to go out in the yard to the bathroom. And on Saturday nights would be the night that we would take our bath in a galvanized bathtub. | 13:28 |
Harry L. Forden | And we went to school locally here. But my family was so poor that when I went to school, my mother would fix a jelly biscuit sandwich, and other kids they could go to the lunchroom and get their American sandwich, and I was so ashamed of just having a biscuit and jelly, many times I would hide my lunch and in the desk and not let people see me eating in. As I stated earlier that later on, by my parents trading at this local grocery store, when the owner was Germans, they gave me this job at the age of six, and I was so short that there was a drawer that had to pull out the way. They taught me how to weigh foods and I had to pull a drawer out. | 14:36 |
Harry L. Forden | And I met a lot of people, a lot of people that their condition were just as bad as ours, but they would have to—Well, back in those days, everybody used the corner store as a credit place where they would get the grocery and pay for it weekly or monthly. But I learned that when they did that—And many times they cannot pay the entire bill. The owner would tell them that, "I can't let you have anything until this bill is paid," and they didn't have money to go elsewhere. They would had to make arrangement other place. | 15:36 |
Harry L. Forden | And this really did disturb me, even at that age, because here people were doing the best they could, and they had no other place to turn, then they were told this. So it was a fine example for me to cherish. I learned from that day that I would never buy food on credit, regardless if I can't afford certain things, like clothing, I would put it on layaway. And having worked there until I finished high school, they were good to me. They would give me gifts at Christmas that my parents couldn't afford to give me. If they went home to get their lunch, they would bring my lunch back. But there were so many other people that weren't as fortune as that was, so it grew up in me that I wanted to do something about the condition of others, and the living condition. | 16:15 |
Harry L. Forden | And after high school and I went to a carpet packing company to work six months, which were a real bad working condition. Then I left and went to Belks and I stayed there 12 years. While working at Belks, I went to college for two years, and then I married and we had two kids. We stayed together. I was married for 13 years, and then our married came to an end due to circumstance. | 17:17 |
Harry L. Forden | But I hope I'm getting to what you want. But it's something that was good for experience because of things. Kerosene lamps. I was fortunate enough to been able to purchase the first television in my family, throughout my family. We had wooden stove. My mother had to put the iron on top of the stove in order to heat it so that she could iron our clothes. There was a washboard, and at times we used white sand to scrub the front porch. And those kind of things are things that I feel that the younger generation, they're fortunate not to have had to experience it, but it could have been good, because there's so many of them now, they don't appreciate all the modern facilities that we have, and some of them abuse it. | 17:51 |
Karen Ferguson | Was Brooklyn a very close-knit community when you were growing up? | 19:00 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes, I would think it was a real close-knit because, well, you didn't have as much crime that you have now. If my mother ran out of flour, she could go next door, send us next door and get the flour that she needed, or the meal or whatever the item were to help to prepare her food. I don't think that you found too much of that now. I still think that this community is real close, but we can get much closer. | 19:05 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay, so you think that hasn't changed that much since when you grew up, the closeness of people knowing each other and looking out for each other? | 19:37 |
Harry L. Forden | No. I think I can call everyone that live in this area by name. Many of the things that have happened in this area has not been done by the residents or people living in the area. Outsiders come into the area, and by they coming in, they commit crime, and so we all are blamed for it. | 19:44 |
Karen Ferguson | And what do you think—Do you think that same closeness that exists today has survived in other Black neighborhoods in Wilmington? | 20:08 |
Harry L. Forden | I would like to think so. Brooklyn is more or less a new Brooklyn now, and there's so many new people into some of these areas. I know politically we have set an example in Brooklyn where others [indistinct 00:20:36] whenever they catch their ballot. In fact, this at one time was the largest predominant Black precinct. This precinct has helped the Democrat party not only on a local level, but a national level. I can remember when Senator Barry Goldwater ran, and we made national television because of—I think he got about seven votes. And David [indistinct 00:21:05] and Chuck [indistinct 00:21:06], I think it was, they made mention, because this is David's home. But Brooklyn has always been more or less a close-knit community, Black and White. | 20:17 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay. So there are White residents in Brooklyn as well? | 21:17 |
Harry L. Forden | At that time they were next door or something, but this area was more or less considered a White neighborhood. From fifth, when you find people coming in. And today you still have something that come in. | 21:21 |
Karen Ferguson | So, now, when you were growing up, were there White people living close to where you were living? | 21:38 |
Harry L. Forden | No. | 21:43 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay. | 21:43 |
Harry L. Forden | I lived in an alley, and I think the White community, unless they had a business, they probably would live on top of their corner store or next door. But the relationship was there at all time, as far as my memory is concerned. | 21:44 |
Karen Ferguson | What did your father do for a living? | 22:06 |
Harry L. Forden | My father, he worked at a lumber company, [indistinct 00:22:11] and Son. And my mother, she worked the laundry, and worked for [indistinct 00:22:18] Hotel and did domestic work of that kind. | 22:07 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay. Did she ever work in people's homes, or? | 22:21 |
Harry L. Forden | Oh, yes. | 22:23 |
Karen Ferguson | Yes. | 22:23 |
Harry L. Forden | And she still does. | 22:24 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay. | 22:24 |
Harry L. Forden | You can't get her to stop. | 22:26 |
Karen Ferguson | Mm-hmm. What were most people—What did most people do for a living in your neighborhood? Same kinds of things? | 22:29 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, if it wasn't construction work, it was something like working some of these low-paying jobs like carpet packing company. [indistinct 00:22:47] was a fairly decent-paying job. That's where my father worked. But on a higher level, they were at the most lowest-paying job and the lowest job. | 22:38 |
Karen Ferguson | How was your family off financially compared to your neighbors? Were you about the same? | 23:00 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, we were in poverty, no question, because my mother's mother died, and she had to look after five or six more brothers and sisters, and we all lived in that four-room house, and we slept on the floor. We made pallets and slept on the floor and whatnot in order to survive. | 23:06 |
Karen Ferguson | So you were growing—So there were 10 children sometimes in [indistinct 00:23:37]? | 23:31 |
Harry L. Forden | Right. Mm-hmm. | 23:33 |
Karen Ferguson | Was that a common thing, people taking in their other people's children? | 23:38 |
Harry L. Forden | Other members of family? | 23:44 |
Karen Ferguson | Right, or [indistinct 00:23:46]. | 23:45 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes. I think—Well, I know it was. I mean, families would migrate from the south and come here, because the condition was much worse. Only thing that they would do was sharecrop or stuff like that. | 23:45 |
Karen Ferguson | Where did your family originally come from? | 24:06 |
Harry L. Forden | South Carolina. | 24:11 |
Karen Ferguson | South Carolina? | 24:11 |
Harry L. Forden | Mm-hmm. | 24:11 |
Karen Ferguson | And when did they come to Wilmington? | 24:13 |
Harry L. Forden | They came to work when I was six months old, I was told. | 24:14 |
Karen Ferguson | Oh, okay. | 24:16 |
Harry L. Forden | There was the [indistinct 00:24:21]. They used to go to places like Myrtle Beach and bring people here to work on their farm, and this is how my parents got here. | 24:17 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay. So could you talk a little bit about that? Where did they grow up, your parents, and what did they do? | 24:30 |
Harry L. Forden | My parents grew up in South Carolina. Their parents were sharecroppers, and they found an opportunity to come here through other means, such as this [indistinct 00:24:52]—Used to be [indistinct 00:24:57] farm. | 24:36 |
Karen Ferguson | What is that? What is [indistinct 00:24:58] farm? | 24:54 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes. Back in those days, practically all the [indistinct 00:25:05] here was farming area, and the [indistinct 00:25:08], they owned that and they still raised items like lettuce and whatnot and sell them to other places. | 24:59 |
Karen Ferguson | And so they owned a very large farm and— | 25:19 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes'm. | 25:21 |
Karen Ferguson | —they would bring people up from— | 25:21 |
Harry L. Forden | Yeah, to work in the fields. Well, and take care of their crop and whatnot. | 25:23 |
Karen Ferguson | Now, were most people in Brooklyn, were they recent migrants from the south? | 25:28 |
Harry L. Forden | I would say a percentage, perhaps a large percentage. I think I can comfortably say that they were a large percentage, because back in the shipyard days, people used to come from the south and they worked on the shipyard and they would stay, and they were [indistinct 00:25:57] and stay in their family's home. | 25:35 |
Karen Ferguson | So did the population really increase during the Second World War, then, in Brooklyn? | 26:02 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes, it did. | 26:06 |
Karen Ferguson | How was that? What was the change? How did the neighborhood change at that point? | 26:06 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, because of the job income. | 26:11 |
Karen Ferguson | Mm-hmm. And what happened to people? They got more money, and what were they able to do? Did they move? | 26:16 |
Harry L. Forden | You're talking about after the '60s, or? | 26:21 |
Karen Ferguson | No, in the '40s, when people had jobs in the shipyard. | 26:24 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, they came from the south of here and they got an employment at the shipyard in many cases, and after the '60s, after the shipyard days, it declined, and then we had urban renewal to come in. | 26:28 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay, so the ship people were still employed by the shipyard into the '60s? | 26:49 |
Harry L. Forden | No, I think the shipyard had closed a little before that. I think the shipyard closed.. I came out of high school in '52, and it was around that period that shipyard closed. | 26:51 |
Karen Ferguson | Can you remember, were there people in the neighborhood outside of your immediate family whom you were very close? Other adults whom you looked up to? | 27:14 |
Harry L. Forden | Oh, that's one thing that's real touching and rewarding. By being a grocery boy, I met many people and I went into many homes, and I would say that this is a part of my relationship with the community now, my having to start at such an early age and saw the condition of these people, and I'd already known them. And a lot of them—And the memory's still there. I mean, I've never had any problems with them. | 27:24 |
Karen Ferguson | Were there any special people, maybe men you really looked up to in the neighborhood that you kind of wanted to model yourself after? | 28:02 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, there's so many. I like to think of my superintendent of Sunday school, Mr. [indistinct 00:28:18]. He had no children, but he was a man that would speak to you or look at you, and I think that his life played a great role in my life. Also, there were many females. Even today, a lot of them consider me as their son. Now, I consider them as a mother, and I refer to them as a mother. So there are so many that—There's some that stood out more than the others, but I thank that my church life under the direction of Mr. Joe meant so much to me. Politically, I think Ms. Ruth Brown and Ms. Pauline Green, they were some of the ladies that—I really looked up to them. | 28:13 |
Karen Ferguson | Why did you look up to those two women? | 29:15 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, because of their life living and because of the encouraging that they gave me as a young man to strive and to have the ability to do certain things to help other people. | 29:18 |
Karen Ferguson | What did they do for a living, these two women? | 29:34 |
Harry L. Forden | Ms. Brown was a businesswoman. Ms. Green was at one time an insurance salesman. | 29:37 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay. Was this for the Mutual, or? | 29:46 |
Harry L. Forden | North Carolina Mutual? | 29:46 |
Karen Ferguson | Yeah. | 29:46 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes'm. | 29:46 |
Karen Ferguson | And what kind of businesswoman was— | 29:52 |
Harry L. Forden | She was in the dry cleaning business. | 29:52 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay. Were there many Black businesses in this area? Were most of the businesses owned by Blacks, or were they—? | 29:56 |
Harry L. Forden | Unfortunately, I can only think of probably two or three. | 30:03 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay. So Whites owned most of the others? | 30:09 |
Harry L. Forden | Right. Well, Jews. The Jews dominated this area, but if you look at the time, the relationship was good. There was a door for the Blacks to come in and door for the Whites, and we had a [indistinct 00:30:27] hall located in this area. So it was a striving area, I mean, for business as far as making a dollar. Then we had the local Black theater next door here. | 30:11 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay. What was it called? | 30:39 |
Harry L. Forden | The Ritz Theater. | 30:41 |
Karen Ferguson | Ritz? Okay. So when you did your shopping, did you do it in its neighborhood or did you go down to the Black business district to do it? | 30:42 |
Harry L. Forden | The little shopping that my family did, they were probably—We did most of it in this area, because once a year my mother would get a suit for the four boys, and one of the business [indistinct 00:31:13], not on Front Street, and it would take her to the next Easter. Like on Easter, take to the next Easter to pay for it. So the other things were more or less given. In my case, when I worked at the grocery store, they would buy my clothes. | 30:54 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay. Now, would they do that—Would you be paid on top of that? | 31:36 |
Harry L. Forden | No, there was a deduction. | 31:39 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay. | 31:41 |
Harry L. Forden | I managed to get up to about 20-something dollars when I left. After I finished. I mean, before I finished high school. | 31:41 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay, so you stayed there a long time? | 31:51 |
Harry L. Forden | I stayed there until I graduated from high school in '52. | 31:53 |
Karen Ferguson | Now, you said your relationship was pretty good with this family who owned the store? | 31:58 |
Harry L. Forden | Mm-hm. | 32:03 |
Karen Ferguson | Would you be able to sit down at a table with them and eat and that kind of thing? | 32:04 |
Harry L. Forden | No. It was the same old thing even when I worked at Belk, so the motto was, it's cool out there on your feet, so why don't you go out there and—Not trying to more or less hurt my feeling, but I guess that was to more or less dress it up. | 32:07 |
Karen Ferguson | Right. And why do you think Whites did that? I mean, I'm sure it was clear to everyone, Black and White, that it wasn't because it was cooler under the trees. Why would they try to hide the fact that they were segregating you? | 32:26 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, I think it's lack of knowledge and that, and I would like to say this. Blacks were preparing meals in the kitchen, and [indistinct 00:32:53] you want somebody, if they had some sort of disease, to not sit at the table and eat with you, and medication, it might exist now. They had a separate bathroom, and we had our bathroom. But I don't think that you could really blame them for what they did, because they were trained that way. It probably go back to the 1800s. | 32:40 |
Karen Ferguson | But why wouldn't they just say, "Oh, this isn't your place. Go out and eat under the tree," rather than saying, trying to sort of fancy it up like you said, and say, "Oh, there's not enough room. You have to sit elsewhere," or, "You have to go under the shade." Sort of trying to hide or trying to cover up what they were doing? You see what I mean? | 33:27 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, I think that we have to look at the facts that because the environment that they came up on that they just didn't know any better. I mean, there's some people still don't know any better. I work with them daily. I work at a plant that I think relationship and working condition could not be any better, match any place in the world. But that nasty disease exists among some people. Some people, you cannot not change them. And the same thing is [indistinct 00:34:34] with some Blacks. They going to be militant. I mean, they feel that all White folks hate them, and they didn't feel that all of us are the same, and the same thing is vice versa with some of the racists. Some of them feel that—I mean, they just feel that one better than other. But I don't see no color. I mean, because my Christian belief and my experience with people. | 33:51 |
Karen Ferguson | Let's talk a little bit about church. This has obviously been very important to you in your life. Did your parents go? Were they big churchgoers as well? Did you [indistinct 00:35:16]? | 35:03 |
Harry L. Forden | My mother was. My mother took us to Sunday school and made sure that we go to Sunday school. If we didn't go to church, we couldn't go to the movie. And back in those days, there weren't any television. They were only the radio. And naturally on Sunday afternoon, you would like to go to the Ritz Theater. We looked forward to going to Ritz Theater, watching Bill Elliot and some of the famous cowboys. And this is probably where you met your girls, little girls. I mean, you'd see them and you'd get a bag of popcorn or something. | 35:15 |
Harry L. Forden | My mother, she did that. Unfortunately, my father didn't see fit to be a part of the church until he became an older man. But the church has been 95% of my life. I learned the church at a early age. It still exists. I don't miss 10 Sundays a year, if that many, we're going to church, because I believe in Christianity, and I feel that Christianity has helped to uplift all of us to this point. I love Sunday school more because, well, it has meant so much to me. In Sunday school, you can hear the thoughts of others, but when you go to 11 o'clock, service, only the minister talk, and if you disagree with something that's in the Bible there, well, all of the time, you can get out of your Sunday school lesson, if you have a good instructor and if you study the lesson. | 35:53 |
Harry L. Forden | Like I said, I have two children by birth, but there are so many other children that I've had an opportunity to share my Christian belief as far as teaching them in Sunday school. Some of them has gone to—Well, Lee Monroe, who's president of one of the universities now, thinking Texas, I taught him in Sunday school. There are many that I teach in school. There's some that serve on the police department and whatnot. I like to think that the time that I devoted as far as giving service to Christian education has somehow touched their lives. | 37:06 |
Karen Ferguson | Have you always attended St. Phillips? | 37:50 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes. | 37:52 |
Karen Ferguson | Now, who in the community attends St. Phillips? What do they do for what kind of people are in the congregation? | 37:54 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, now, we have people that come from all sections of the city, and mostly the members of our church are low-income people, because Methodist is one of the oldest churches in the country, AME Methodist, which is African Method Episcopal Church, which was founded by a Black man, Richard Allen, because of segregation. | 38:00 |
Karen Ferguson | Now, you talked a little bit before about how your involvement in the church has been very influential to your political activism. How is that? What is the connection there? | 38:31 |
Harry L. Forden | Okay. The connection is, I think I were about the third Black precinct chairman of the First Ward. People saw because of my church activity that they came to me and asked me would I serve in that capacity as precinct chairman, because they needed some leadership. And I was honored, but before I accepted, before I seek the election for that committee, I went to my church, because they played such an important role in my life. And out of that, I stayed there for 25 years, and because of the experience that I received at my church and from others, it helped in me to be able to deal with some of the problems that a precinct chairman would. | 38:46 |
Karen Ferguson | And what kinds of problems would those be, and what kinds of thing would your leadership in the church have prepared you for that specifically? | 39:50 |
Harry L. Forden | Okay. Number one, by having the leadership and by have gotten some experience to work with leadership from the church, we were able to touch some of the non-voters, because people go to church back in those days, and still exist. They go to church. And with the relationship with other churches, it helped to increase our voter graduation. And there were more people that started voting after registering. There were people that, in other area, they were after this ward because of it was such large—It was so large. There were White politicians. There were other Black leaders that would say, "Let's cut Harry Forden down," and by me having God on my side, which helped the people, I was able to [indistinct 00:41:08]. | 39:58 |
Harry L. Forden | I was a stubborn person anyway. I wouldn't let other Black leaders tell me how to run the precinct, so therefore they would get together with others and say that, from what I was told, "Now, we got to do something to get that precinct to go our way, because we can't talk to Harry." I was told that sometime they stayed up at night. But with senior citizen and with the trust that the people had of my leadership, by working with them—I never like to use the word, "I." I learned that from one of my high school teachers. I always say, regardless how much work I do, "We did it." And I think the people appreciate—Even with [indistinct 00:41:50]. I don't say, "This is my store." "This is our store." And believe it or not—I hope this is not getting away from your story, but there is—At least 50% of this business is White. Excuse me, just one minute. | 41:08 |
Karen Ferguson | Talking a little bit about the church. | 42:10 |
Harry L. Forden | Oh, the church. Well, I think even today, by having grown up in St. Phillip, their people look to me as a leader. I never want to be classified as such, but they're people that—They really respect whatever I say, and whenever the problem that exists in the church with the minister, they look to Harry in many case, and I'm honored that God has given me that wisdom. | 42:16 |
Karen Ferguson | Now, what has your— | 42:53 |
Harry L. Forden | Excuse me. You say you won't like to have a drink? | 43:03 |
Karen Ferguson | No, I'm fine. | 43:06 |
Harry L. Forden | Okay. | 43:06 |
Karen Ferguson | I'm sure. I had something else [indistinct 00:43:14]. What kinds of organizations are you involved in at the church? | 43:07 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, I'm a trustee. I teach the adult class. I have served in many other capacities, but I just had to give up some of it because of my [indistinct 00:43:34], and I don't want to just be [indistinct 00:43:38]. I like to try to fulfill it to the fullness. | 43:19 |
Karen Ferguson | Back before the civil rights movement and before the '60s, what kinds of things did your church do for the community at large? What kinds of services did it provide? | 43:41 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, the Black church has always—In our church, we'd always tried to help people that's in poverty who were less fortunate than others in the church. We would do certain amount of missionary work. We would try to put our funds together to help those who were less fortunate than others. There were many special [indistinct 00:44:23] taken up because there was some I can think very vividly that had gone to doctors, Black doctors, and because they didn't have the money to pay the entire bill, or perhaps the bill had ran up to a higher amount, they were not treated. So there were times that we took an offering and gave them money to go to other doctors. I think Dr. Johnson, who was a White doctor, he was very, very cooperative with Black females who had children and they didn't have the money to pay their bill. | 43:54 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay. Do you ever remember before the '60s, the minister ever—Maybe not talking about civil rights, but preaching about the equality of all men and that kind of thing? Sort of talking about the situation that Blacks were under, and talking about how it had to change? | 45:07 |
Harry L. Forden | You had some of it, but you didn't have it on a large scale. Some of your middle class Black churches, they did it. Our church, we've always done some of it, due to the fact that it was founded because of segregation. I don't know whether the history of— | 45:35 |
Karen Ferguson | I know a little about it. | 45:55 |
Harry L. Forden | —the AME church, how it started, and we know that John Wesley is the founder of Methodism, but due to Blacks having to go and sit up in the balcony and waiting until Whites have been served communion before they go and kneel to take communion. So the Black church, which is the Methodist church, has always taught equality. That's one thing that we have been able to— | 45:56 |
Harry L. Forden | Get certain things to get people elected and to get people in certain positions. | 0:01 |
Karen Ferguson | Right. But you were saying that your mother was a great churchgoer, but your father didn't go very much. Was that typical when you were growing up that women rather than men went to church? | 0:04 |
Harry L. Forden | I'm inclined to think that more men attended church back when I was a kid than then they do now. | 0:18 |
Karen Ferguson | Yeah. Okay. | 0:22 |
Harry L. Forden | This is the reason why you have so many females that's serving in different positions in the church. Back when I was a boy, very seldom you find a lady on trustee board. Very seldom You saw a female praying during the 11 o'clock service. And now men, we got complacent. In many cases. Well men, there were much, much better church attendance than now. | 0:24 |
Karen Ferguson | Right. So the church was a place then for somebody who was ambitious as well to become a leader, a place for people to become leaders and to exercise their leadership qualities [indistinct 00:01:11]? | 0:51 |
Harry L. Forden | Not altogether, necessarily there. I would like to rephrase it and say that the church was a place that people would come to share the religious belief and that it was a place where they could more or less rejoice because there weren't too many other things. Back in those days, you had four service. Three service. Well, four service, yes. Sunday school, 11 o'clock service, three o'clock service and night service. Now after the 11 o'clock service, there are very few churches doors are open after then. So that was the main fellowship affair that they had. | 1:13 |
Karen Ferguson | Now as far as Black leaders in the community, did anybody rival the ministers in terms of people looking up to—Who were the Black leaders in Wilmington when you were growing up? | 1:59 |
Harry L. Forden | There were very few. | 2:14 |
Karen Ferguson | Maybe not politically, but for people living, the Black people looked up to as leaders. | 2:16 |
Harry L. Forden | They look up to the minister and perhaps in Methodist church, the stewards in the church, they look out for the spiritual part of the church, and perhaps one of the trustees. And some of the churches they have the mother of the church. But there were people in all congregations that people look up to. But that minister was the main person. It's somewhat different today. | 2:25 |
Karen Ferguson | You think so? | 3:01 |
Harry L. Forden | It is. | 3:02 |
Karen Ferguson | How has it changed? | 3:03 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, it has changed a lot. It has changed because of conditions, because people have become a little bit more educated as far as looking for leaders. You don't have to go to church to look for a leader, there are other people that have the same qualification. They might not have a degree or might not carry that title. | 3:04 |
Karen Ferguson | So you think that in some ways it was not necessarily a good thing that people looked up to their ministers in those days, or without questioning it? | 3:43 |
Harry L. Forden | I think it was good back in those days because by they looking up to the minister, he were able to teach them some things, besides Christianity. Some other walk of life that they probably would come in contact with during their lifetime. | 3:54 |
Karen Ferguson | Where were the gathering places in Brooklyn? Where did people gather to talk, to have a good time? | 4:24 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, the theaters were one place. There were different dancing outlet here in Brooklyn. There was a restaurant known as Knock-On Grill. | 4:32 |
Karen Ferguson | The Knock-On Grill. | 4:45 |
Harry L. Forden | And there was another place known as Jimmy the Greek at Ninth and Red Cross, which was owned by a Greek. Then there was a place on Nixon Street known as the Soda Shop owned by Blight's. And the other social events were places like the Sawdust, the Barn, that's where Black bands used to come. But those are the main places in this area. The old Brooklyn Drugstore and the Rich Theater. | 4:51 |
Karen Ferguson | Now these places where you said Black bands would come to play, were they from Wilmington or from other places? | 5:34 |
Harry L. Forden | No, they're from out of town. | 5:41 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay. Now can you remember some groups that came to play when you were young person? | 5:42 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, I did not attend, but I can remember a few like Louis Armstrong and Billy Eckstine, those places. | 5:48 |
Karen Ferguson | So now was Wilmington on the main circuit for these people? Would they come whenever they were touring or to Wilmington? | 6:02 |
Harry L. Forden | I would think that they would come in the touring, because the fee would probably would be much higher if they would just come directly to this location. | 6:11 |
Karen Ferguson | Right, right, right. But it was a big enough place here that— | 6:20 |
Harry L. Forden | Right, right. Now there used to be a lot of gospel singing, some talent from out of town, and some from here. And that would be more or less three o'clock, the night service and occasion they would use the schools. | 6:21 |
Karen Ferguson | Can you remember some of the groups? | 6:48 |
Harry L. Forden | Clara Ward, Brother Joe Mays, the Consoler Singers, they came up later. But I do remember those because we played a part with them. | 6:50 |
Karen Ferguson | Do you remember any blues musicians coming through? | 7:02 |
Harry L. Forden | Other than Billy Eckstine, and Cab Calloway was here one time. I'm thinking that's the name. | 7:08 |
Karen Ferguson | Were there any places in this area that your mother told you you could not go? Places that were forbidden to you? Bad parts of town? | 7:16 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes sir. Yes sir. It was Tank Town down here. It used to be— | 7:24 |
Karen Ferguson | Tank Town. | 7:32 |
Harry L. Forden | Tank Town was a place that—It's down on the waterfront now. It was classified as the place of being the place where people did a lot of alcohol drinking. And Second Street, all them combined together, those were the places. | 7:36 |
Karen Ferguson | So there'd be bootlegging and that kind of thing going on? | 7:58 |
Harry L. Forden | Mm-hmm. And there was a portion of Nixon Street, but Nixon Street still have problems. But before they built Dudley School—No, DC Virgo School. That was one of the places. | 8:04 |
Karen Ferguson | When you were a young man, or well actually a boy, when you're still at home, what were the main clubs and voluntary associations that Black people belonged to in your neighborhood? Were there fraternal organizations or burial societies or anything like that people belonged to? | 8:18 |
Harry L. Forden | The church was the place. There might have been a few that belonged to the Masonic Lodges, and there was an Elk Club at Ninth and Red Cross. And other than that. | 8:38 |
Karen Ferguson | Right. Do you think it was different in other, more affluent Black neighborhoods? | 8:52 |
Harry L. Forden | I would think so on the south side. Might have been. See, you didn't have as many subdivision areas now where Black live at. | 8:59 |
Karen Ferguson | So were there middle class and professional Blacks living in this area? | 9:14 |
Harry L. Forden | We had some, yes. On Red Cross Street, and there might have been a few on Fifth Street. Fifth Street where it was more or less classified because people, they had jobs working with Atlantic Coastline and places of that nature. | 9:20 |
Karen Ferguson | Now, what was your association with Black people from other neighborhoods. Did you go to other Black neighborhoods or did you stay mainly in Brooklyn? | 9:42 |
Harry L. Forden | I stayed mostly in Brooklyn. | 9:50 |
Karen Ferguson | Was there any rivalry between the neighborhoods when you were growing up? | 9:53 |
Harry L. Forden | When I was growing up, if the guys come across Market Street to see our girls, they would have trouble. And same thing is true on Castle Street. | 9:58 |
Karen Ferguson | It's like this all over. | 10:09 |
Harry L. Forden | Yeah. Market Street. | 10:09 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay. So you remember getting into fights? | 10:09 |
Harry L. Forden | I didn't, because, I don't know, my mother, I'll say it now, I was the oldest of four boys, but she was real strict on me. | 10:16 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay. Because you were the oldest, do you think? | 10:26 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, because I was the oldest and I had to pick up a lot of responsibility due to my father not doing. I know my brothers, when they would go to work, they took their money and bought clothes. When I was going, I had to bring my money home and probably she gave me a few dollars to help support the other members of the family. | 10:27 |
Karen Ferguson | So your dad wasn't always able to— | 10:47 |
Harry L. Forden | No. There's certain things that he didn't realize, some of his responsibility until he became older. | 10:50 |
Karen Ferguson | Right. What was your parents' relationship? Did they have a good relationship? Did they share in decision making and that kind thing? | 11:00 |
Harry L. Forden | Well my father Sanford would say that he was the type of fellow that he never gave up, as far as dealing with other females. | 11:06 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay. | 11:16 |
Harry L. Forden | And therefore the family wasn't liking them certain things. And that's where I came in. And that's one of the reasons why I had to start working at an early age. There was female violence and those kind of things. | 11:17 |
Karen Ferguson | So your mother was the boss at home? | 11:37 |
Harry L. Forden | No, she wasn't the boss. | 11:39 |
Karen Ferguson | No? | 11:40 |
Harry L. Forden | No, she might've been the boss when he wasn't there. | 11:41 |
Karen Ferguson | Oh, okay. So when he was home, he was? | 11:42 |
Harry L. Forden | I like to think of him as being a real mean man, and I think that's the reason why he's ailing now. And I think my brothers, they never have forgotten it. I have a soft heart, I'll give my father their present and do something. But my brothers, they're tough. They stood with them. | 11:46 |
Karen Ferguson | Right, right. So he disciplined you a lot? | 12:06 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, he was more or less violent towards our mother. | 12:11 |
Karen Ferguson | Oh, okay. | 12:14 |
Harry L. Forden | And when you were violent against my mother, it's different then. He didn't realize that he had a responsibility to us. | 12:14 |
Karen Ferguson | Right. Now did you resent that when you were sent out to work at six? Did that make you angry when you were— | 12:23 |
Harry L. Forden | No, it was something that I didn't have to do because my mother would work two or three jobs and whatnot. But I was just blessed with that opportunity to get that job. It's something like as I studied about Booker T. Washington and I like to pattern my getting this job right as a prime example of him getting the job that he got to finish his education. | 12:31 |
Karen Ferguson | When did you read about Booker T. Washington and his life? At what point? | 13:05 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, I read about probably during my elementary [indistinct 00:13:13]. | 13:10 |
Karen Ferguson | And it affected you back then? You were struck by his [indistinct 00:13:21]? | 13:12 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes, it was just one of thing that you come across as far as your school days. I had to come to work after school where other boys had an opportunity to play sports. And in fact, the coach at one time said to me that I would make a nice quarterback, but I had to work. | 13:21 |
Karen Ferguson | Right, right. So you looked at his life and you could see some parallels? | 13:45 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes. And there was other things there. It was more or less, I like to say that it's something that God gave a person the foresight and something that He wanted and He felt that I could do. | 13:56 |
Karen Ferguson | I wanted to talk a little bit about race relations in Wilmington. I've been talking to a few people and they've said to me that people in Brooklyn bore the brunt of any kind of police harassment and that kind of thing that happened in Wilmington. That the police didn't treat people very well in this neighborhood. | 14:06 |
Harry L. Forden | I disagree with that. To be honest with you. I disagree with you. I think from what I've seen, not because I served on the Chief's committee, but looking back in the '60s, as a child, Blacks did not get respect from the police department that they should have gotten. In other words, they look at him as a man with a gun and he was a big bully. Now, I feel that if you're approached by a police officer and you give him your cooperation, then I feel that there's no problem. I've seen recently where some police has approached some of our attendants even, and the attendant was very, very nasty and called the officer many names. But the officer smiled and he did not use any force. On one occasion, this lady had lived everywhere and she was real nasty and those kind of people didn't know them by name. | 14:37 |
Karen Ferguson | Well, but when you were growing up here, you say that the police were not very respectful. | 15:58 |
Harry L. Forden | No. | 16:12 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay. That's what people [indistinct 00:16:14]. | 16:13 |
Harry L. Forden | No, no. | 16:13 |
Karen Ferguson | What kinds of things would go on? | 16:13 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, they would come up and they would call men boys, and they would use profanity. They had certain people that were bootlegging for them and they were kind to those people because those people are making money for them. And they just look at you as not being a human being in their attitude. Then if some people could say some of the things to an officer now, back in those days that they say now, their body would've been real badly injured. Now we had a case here recently and like I say that you still have those problems exist with the Reverend Larry Hutton. He was a very good friend of mine, we were political friends back when Luther Hodges ran for the Senate and he was his top lieutenant and he went into the ministry. He was assaulted by some officers. | 16:16 |
Harry L. Forden | You going to find a few cases that [indistinct 00:17:39] down. You take the Jones case, but you can't blame the whole entire police department. In every business, with every company, you going to find people there that are not going to do the right thing. So you can't just put that on the whole department. So those are just a few cases that I can think of. But other cases, I think that if the policemen had same sort of attitude that they had back, there's some things that probably would not be. But I'm inclined to think that somebody else would get hurt. There might be a little more policemen. | 17:36 |
Karen Ferguson | Right. Now, when you were growing up, did your mother ever sit down and say, "Listen, this is how you have to behave to stay out of trouble with the police or with other White people," or anything like that? | 18:26 |
Harry L. Forden | I think back then they thought that whatever was done was right. I know my mother, she felt that way. And you have to go back to the educational background, and she still has some of it. She said she feels that whatever Ms. So-and-so say is right. And she's not a prejudiced woman. I think that if you go to my mother's house, one of the few Black homes, if there are any, that you see the people that she worked for, she had their picture there. In fact, my sister-in-law made a White doll for her. Some people will look at it as being anti, but I remember that's the kind of love that she had for people and she taught us to love people. | 18:38 |
Karen Ferguson | Right, okay. What were the signs of segregation in Wilmington? You've talked a little bit about it not being able to eat in the lunchroom at work. Were there White and Black water fountains, or White and Colored water fountains? | 19:37 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes. Any much as Blacks were the total supporter of the businesses in this area. In this place, this was one of the main places for Blacks eating. It was run by Jews, but they had two doors. But you could look over, you could sit here and there was the White section over there. You could look over there and I could holler at you, but still the bathroom and whatnot was different. And the long summers were one of the largest business in this area because they were right up the street there. But it still existed. And you went in the stores, their biggest business was credit. Put a dollar down and so much a week, and if you missed so many payments, they repossessed. | 19:54 |
Karen Ferguson | Did they charge a large amount of interest? | 21:03 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes they did. | 21:05 |
Karen Ferguson | How much would it be [indistinct 00:21:09]? | 21:05 |
Harry L. Forden | I would say beyond the regular market price. | 21:09 |
Karen Ferguson | Did things change at all when chain stores started opening up here? Well, I guess when you were born there already would be some larger stores. When did people start going elsewhere to do their shopping? | 21:16 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, when A&P came in, as I stated earlier that I worked at a grocery store, and they felt the market when chain stores come in. Your other words, they had better grocery, the service were much better. Well, the service, they were respected. Most time when you went in the corner store, only thing you got if they knew your name and if you were a good customer, he might call you by your name. But if I went in as a boy, "Boy, what can I do for you?" "What you want, boy?" That's what they say. | 21:30 |
Karen Ferguson | So at A&P, they would treat you better? | 22:12 |
Harry L. Forden | Oh yes. Sure, sure. | 22:15 |
Karen Ferguson | And when was this? When did it open up? | 22:15 |
Harry L. Forden | The A&P's opened up before I came out of high school, I guess in the '50s. | 22:24 |
Karen Ferguson | In the '50s, okay. So the White clerk would be respectful to you? | 22:24 |
Harry L. Forden | Right. | 22:27 |
Karen Ferguson | Right, okay. | 22:27 |
Harry L. Forden | Now you had Blacks that probably worked in the stock, in the meat department, but as far as cashiers. | 22:29 |
Karen Ferguson | Was there ever any protests about those kinds of things? I know in some places they had boycotts of stores to get Black clerks. Was there ever anything like that? | 22:37 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes, we had what is known as the Civic Lee. And we had a selective buying campaign whereby that you had a list of the places that weren't in our best interests to shop. And when some of the other civil rights leaders began to come into Wilmington, then you had marches. See, this was in the '60s though, when they had so many people that they put in jail. And then you had protestors when now Judge Johnny Walker slapped a Black man and we had out of town lawyers to come in. | 22:47 |
Karen Ferguson | When was that? Was that in the '60s as well or was that earlier? | 23:35 |
Harry L. Forden | That was in the '60s, that was a part of the boycott. | 23:41 |
Karen Ferguson | Right. Okay. | 23:42 |
Harry L. Forden | And this is when it happened. The other gentlemen was found guilty on certain ground and this was custom that I imagine somebody might exist today. Very sudden you find that they going to charge— | 23:45 |
Karen Ferguson | The victim. | 24:03 |
Harry L. Forden | Right. | 24:08 |
Karen Ferguson | Going along with that, do you remember people being arrested or even placed in jail for things that they hadn't done? Or being harassed by the police in that way? Or just being put in jail for something very, very minor? | 24:09 |
Harry L. Forden | I'm sure that there were many cases that those things happened. There were times that I felt that the officer, he had a certain number of person that he had to arrest within a week in order for him to be upgraded to probably sergeant or something. And there were cases that a fellow weren't testified. | 24:35 |
Karen Ferguson | Did you know many men who had been in jail? | 25:03 |
Harry L. Forden | Well yes, back working to the grocery store. My boss, he used to get them out because they were customers of his, but they had to pay a fee. | 25:07 |
Karen Ferguson | So he was like a bondsman. | 25:29 |
Harry L. Forden | Right. Back then you didn't have any Black bondsman. | 25:29 |
Karen Ferguson | Right. Now you were talking about the Colored and White water fountains and that kind of thing. Do you ever remember boys or as a joke going down and deliberately drinking out of the White fountain or just defying these segregated areas? | 25:37 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes, I remember especially working in department store there were cases that people did it because they felt that their money was just as good as any other customer. And they did it on those grounds, even at the bus station. And that was one of the most racist places that you won't think of they did it. But whenever somebody was in authority saw it, they would report it to the manager and then at some period, if you continued to do it, if the manager approached you, then if you got ugly about it, then they would call in police officers. | 26:02 |
Karen Ferguson | So this was something though that people did do? | 26:45 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes. | 26:46 |
Karen Ferguson | Right. | 26:46 |
Harry L. Forden | Now on that, there were people that used the female restrooms, Blacks, and there were people in authority working in the department store they would get with that person, but in some cases they would demand that they not do it again. They would get—Well, at this particular department store, they weren't real nasty about it, but they didn't want you to do it. | 26:50 |
Karen Ferguson | Right, right. And this was before the '60s? | 27:25 |
Harry L. Forden | Oh yes. Uh-huh. | 27:32 |
Karen Ferguson | Did you ever do any of this? Do you remember drinking out of the White fountain? | 27:35 |
Harry L. Forden | No, I went to old-school. My mother, she was just old-fashioned and what her mama said, even today I have to respect it to her, a large part. | 27:41 |
Karen Ferguson | Right, right. I wanted to talk a little bit more about your mother. What kinds of values did she instill in you? | 27:51 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, she instilled Christian beliefs. She's a very strong religious person. She believed that in due time that God will move all those obstacles. And I believe that, I believe it to a large part. But I think that you got to do something for yourself, He want you to do something for yourself. She taught the four of us that we should go to church, that we should try to treat other people as we wanted to be treated. And I find that to be very true. If you treat a person with kindness, they might not like you, but you can [indistinct 00:28:53] them by doing your part of the kindness. | 27:58 |
Karen Ferguson | I wanted also to talk a little bit about her work, the domestic work she did. Where did she fit in among domestic workers? I know there's a whole range of things that people did. What was the highest job you could get doing that kind of work and what was sort of the lower end of the [indistinct 00:29:20]? | 28:58 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, I think working at the laundry, the laundry worker. I think that that was one of the highest points because there's certain skills that you have to have. You to be a good presser, a good checker. She did that. And I was thinking being a maid in houses, and it don't necessarily have to be true, but she's well in her 70s and she still wants to do it a couple days of the week. She work for one of the former mayors of the city, Mayor Albrooks. In fact, she still have to go half a day or something because his wife, just a couple places. She worked at the old, I would say the Cape Fair Hotel, [indistinct 00:30:15] Hotel. Because back in the '60s you had Marines that stayed at that hotel and they were real nasty and the condition was just not good for a person. But they had no other choice. | 29:19 |
Karen Ferguson | Now did you ever go to the beach when you were a boy? | 30:33 |
Harry L. Forden | Longest time that I went to the beach—Well, we used to slip away and there was a pond down here where the ice house, and that was more or less our beach. The water that came from the ice house, which was cold, and we would go down there and take a dip so to speak. Well, we went to beach, we'd go to Atlantic Beach. And each year the church would take a group of kids to Atlantic Beach. Didn't go to Atlanta Beach until they went to Shady Rest, place out there. I don't know whether it still exists. Either we would go out Freeman's Beach down here, a portion of Carolina Beach. And that was the only time, because we didn't have transportation. | 30:38 |
Karen Ferguson | Right. Did you ever work in any of the hotels or in the resorts along the beach? | 31:25 |
Harry L. Forden | No, I've been in the retail business. I have devoted most of my entire life, the retail business, other than 23 years at General Electric and six at American Standard. | 31:30 |
Karen Ferguson | Maybe we could talk a little bit about school now. What elementary school did you go to? | 31:48 |
Harry L. Forden | I went to Peabody, and from Peabody, I went to Little Wilson, we used call it, which is Gregory now. And from there I went to Williston Industrial School, I think we were the last class to come out of the old Williston Industrial school. And I went over to the senior high, which is now the senior high for college. They used to have the Wilmington College on Market Street, and our college were the Williston College Center. | 31:54 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay. Right, right. | 32:33 |
Harry L. Forden | And we were a branch of Faber State Teachers College, which you could get a social art degree, but you could go only two years there. And those two years you would have to go to Faber State [indistinct 00:32:51]. So I graduated at Williston College Center and I played on the softball team, but I worked at Belks during the day. I worked at Belks from nine until two, then I went to school from about three until 10 at night. | 32:34 |
Karen Ferguson | And that was through college, right? | 33:12 |
Harry L. Forden | Right, right. | 33:14 |
Karen Ferguson | Now, did you like school when you were young? | 33:15 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes. I wanted to teach more than anything in the world. | 33:18 |
Karen Ferguson | Why was that? | 33:23 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, teaching were a big job then for Blacks. If you taught school, you were somebody. And I wanted to pursue that career, and unfortunately I found this girl and she became pregnant and we got married and that was the end of my education. | 33:24 |
Karen Ferguson | Now were there teachers that you especially looked up to either in elementary school and at secondary school? | 33:51 |
Harry L. Forden | Yeah. I had several teachers. Missy Lucille Bass, she's still living. In fact, everything that she hear or see in the newspaper, hear anything about me, she send me a little note. Miss Doris B. Johnson, she was a very favorite of mines. Mrs. Katherine Robinson, she was my English teacher and she taught me a lot. In fact, she was the one that told me about I is not important, and that stuck with me. During my senior year, Mrs. A. C. King, she was classified as being one of the roughest teachers. But I made better mark in English on her than I did any other teachers. Mr. Long, he was real good. Spike Corvin. | 33:59 |
Karen Ferguson | Now what was it about these teachers that you liked so much? What did you respect about them? | 34:57 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, to me, they took students as students. There were segregation, there was a little segregated between Black students per se because of their parents' income. I don't like looking at it that way, but it was there. If your daddy was a mail carrier or if your parent taught school, you were put in more or less a separate category. And so therefore I didn't see that in these teachers. | 35:03 |
Karen Ferguson | Right. But you saw it in some others? | 35:39 |
Harry L. Forden | Oh yes. Yeah. | 35:41 |
Karen Ferguson | Yeah. Was there any favoritism based on skin color, too? [indistinct 00:35:46]? | 35:43 |
Harry L. Forden | I was told that, but I don't want to believe that. Complexion, some people said that some of them had it. | 35:46 |
Karen Ferguson | Mm-hmm. But you didn't— | 35:54 |
Harry L. Forden | No, I've heard it so many times, but I never did saw that. I don't know whether because my occupation was median or whatnot, but I think some students will say anything to make their story look good. | 35:57 |
Karen Ferguson | Right. But there was this economic—You saw this thing with [indistinct 00:36:19]. | 36:13 |
Harry L. Forden | Oh, yes. No question about that. Not only in school, you saw it in the department store. Whenever payday came for teachers at this department store, it was a different. Teachers could get charge accounts a lot quicker than other people that work on other jobs. | 36:19 |
Karen Ferguson | Right. Now how did that work in other areas? For example, would teachers be able to register to vote more easily than other people or anything like that? | 36:51 |
Harry L. Forden | I'm not aware of situations because in this area we had our own people. Now there were times that the registrar might have gotten out of his or her place because of the way that a person might ask them or approach them. But that easily worked out under the proper leadership. | 37:12 |
Karen Ferguson | Right. Now were you always able to vote when you wanted to? Were you able to register? | 37:33 |
Harry L. Forden | Oh, I've always voted. No problem. | 37:37 |
Karen Ferguson | And do you remember there being problems with people registering in Wilmington? | 37:40 |
Harry L. Forden | In some precincts there were. | 37:45 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay. | 37:48 |
Harry L. Forden | But this what brought about more Black precinct judges and registrars mainly because they got out and they worked hard to get in that position where they could help solve some of that problem. | 37:51 |
Karen Ferguson | Was your mother very involved in your schooling? Was school important to her? | 38:10 |
Harry L. Forden | It was. It was. She felt that you had to go to school, that you need to go to school even though she didn't have education background. | 38:16 |
Karen Ferguson | And were your brothers able to go to school? | 38:28 |
Harry L. Forden | Oh, yes. All four of us, we graduated from high school. And we all adults now. | 38:30 |
Karen Ferguson | Did you learn any Black history at school? | 38:44 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes. Mm-hmm. | 38:45 |
Karen Ferguson | And was this something— | 38:45 |
Speaker 1 | How you doing? | 38:45 |
Harry L. Forden | Excuse me. Yes sir? | 38:52 |
Speaker 1 | Cat, you have any Mentos I can buy from you? | 38:53 |
Harry L. Forden | I'm sorry. | 38:59 |
Karen Ferguson | That's okay. You learned Black history in school? Did teachers— | 38:59 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, very little Black history. | 39:03 |
Karen Ferguson | You were able to read Booker T. Washington. | 39:07 |
Harry L. Forden | Booker T. Washington, Marion Anderson, Katherine Matthew, those were the main people. Mostly our time was spent with Mike Biff and Henry Long Worthfellow, I think that's him. And that was about it. | 39:09 |
Karen Ferguson | Now the people that you went to high school with, what could you do with a high school education? A young Black man when you graduated, what kind of job could they look forward to with a high school education? | 39:35 |
Harry L. Forden | There was very few jobs. Most of the Blacks, when they graduated from high school, they had to go to the northern states. Usually went in the Army service. Now when the doors began to open up where they would hire one Black, like with the sheriff department. | 39:50 |
Karen Ferguson | So north or they joined the Army? | 40:08 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes. Or either if they didn't join the Army or they would go to the northern states and get some sort of job. | 40:16 |
Karen Ferguson | Right. Did you have many friends who did that? | 40:26 |
Harry L. Forden | Oh, yes. | 40:31 |
Karen Ferguson | And why didn't you go north? | 40:32 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, I always been a homeboy. I just love Wilmington. I don't think there's no place better than Wilmington to live. | 40:34 |
Karen Ferguson | Did any of your brothers go north? | 40:46 |
Harry L. Forden | All three of them. | 40:47 |
Karen Ferguson | Oh, okay. All. | 40:49 |
Harry L. Forden | All of them went. But they have recently returned. One of them has been back 15 years, he's with General Electric. I was fortunate to help him get a job there. And one just left, he retired and he has bought him a home here. I have one that's still there, one next to me. | 40:49 |
Karen Ferguson | Did you feel a special responsibility to your mother to stay? | 41:11 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, it's something within your heart that you have towards—My mother was not the biggest problem there. I just motivated wanted to do something to help uplift other people, and I've loved them to larger point. | 41:17 |
Speaker 1 | How you doing? | 41:40 |
Harry L. Forden | How you? Excuse me one minute. Yes sir. | 41:41 |
Karen Ferguson | So you were talking about staying in Wilmington rather than going north and joining the Army. | 41:46 |
Harry L. Forden | You said why do I—Well, this is the only place that I know. I've done very little traveling, I've never had any feeling about relocating because Wilmington has been good to me. I have so many friends in both races that I like to think of, and there's so much that I enjoy doing here. I have traveled to Washington. In fact, at one time I did go once a month, my being chairman of [indistinct 00:42:28] part of the program. And the big cities are not for me. There's so many things going on and so much traffic, and I think our relationship is real good here | 41:54 |
Karen Ferguson | You've certainly accomplished. | 42:39 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, I just can't see and I think a lot of people, my have classmates and whatnot, they've gone to the big cities and they're just eager to get back home. | 42:41 |
Karen Ferguson | So you finished up at high school and you went directly into the college? | 42:59 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes. Yes sir. | 43:06 |
Karen Ferguson | You were intending to be a teacher? | 43:07 |
Harry L. Forden | Right, right. | 43:08 |
Karen Ferguson | So where did you meet your wife? | 43:11 |
Harry L. Forden | She was a local girl. I was a student at Williston College Center, and back in those days I used to play on the baseball team and I became famous and I was able to dress better and we met. | 43:13 |
Speaker 1 | Can I use your bathroom a minute? | 43:38 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes sir. Excuse me one more time. | 43:39 |
Karen Ferguson | So you were on the baseball team. Now was this the baseball team at school? | 43:53 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes, I played on the team and I used to take in a lot of entertainment, and I met this girl. She was in high school, and from there we went. | 43:57 |
Karen Ferguson | Right. And what was courtship like back then? What would you two do, or with other girlfriends, what would you do for fun? | 44:07 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, she was much younger than I am. She was about two years younger than I. She was in high school and I met her, she was a church girl and she lived in Jersey project. And I met her family and her family became fond of me and from there we went, and we stayed together for 13 years and raised two kids. | 44:17 |
Karen Ferguson | Right. So you'd go to the movies or go dancing? | 44:41 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes, movies mostly and different social events. And school activities. | 44:45 |
Karen Ferguson | Right. What kinds of activities were you involved in when you went to school other than baseball, or softball? | 44:54 |
Harry L. Forden | You talking about at college, on the college level? | 45:01 |
Karen Ferguson | College or at high school. | 45:01 |
Harry L. Forden | That's all that I had time for. | 45:01 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay, because you were still working at Belks? | 45:01 |
Harry L. Forden | Right. | 45:01 |
Karen Ferguson | And how about during high school? Did you— | 45:08 |
Harry L. Forden | At high school I had very, very few—Biggest thing that on the other social was going to the movie and church on Sundays. | 45:11 |
Karen Ferguson | So you started working at Belks and you worked there for how long? | 45:25 |
Harry L. Forden | 12 years. | 45:29 |
Karen Ferguson | 12 years. And then where did you move to? | 45:32 |
Harry L. Forden | I went to American Standard. | 45:32 |
Karen Ferguson | Okay. And had that been open already or were they just opening up? | 45:35 |
Harry L. Forden | No, there was a very few Blacks working at American Standard. I was fortunate to get that job through one of our business leaders in the community. He had asked me to do something for him and I was successful and were able to do it, and by being able to do it, he wanted to reward me. He knew that I was not making an adequate salary at where I was working at. | 45:40 |
Karen Ferguson | So was now was he White? | 46:11 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes. | 46:13 |
Karen Ferguson | Oh, okay. So he was able to get—And was this a way that many Blacks got better jobs was through association or connection with powerful, powerful White— | 46:14 |
Harry L. Forden | In some cases they did. | 46:27 |
Speaker 1 | You better give me two extra large for— | 46:31 |
Karen Ferguson | You worked at American Standard for how long? | 0:02 |
Harry L. Forden | I worked there six years. | 0:05 |
Karen Ferguson | How was that experience? Was it a good place to work? Were you treated well? | 0:07 |
Harry L. Forden | Excuse me. Harris, the large [indistinct 00:00:16] out there, on the first right. | 0:11 |
Harry L. Forden | It was a good place to work. The place was good to me, I'll put it that way, because I was able to make more money there in one week than I was making in two weeks at Belk's. I was elevated to become the first Blacks group leader, which is known as a foreman then. I served on a lot of committees. They had the employee fund committee, and I was elected chairman of that, mainly because of the leadership that they learned about that I had before I went there. | 0:16 |
Speaker 1 | Excuse me. | 1:00 |
Harry L. Forden | Excuse me one minute, Miss Ferguson. | 1:00 |
Karen Ferguson | We were talking about your job at American Standard. Was it hard? Were you a foreman? | 1:12 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes. | 1:18 |
Karen Ferguson | Over White employees? | 1:18 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes. | 1:19 |
Karen Ferguson | Was that a problem? | 1:20 |
Harry L. Forden | It wasn't a problem because the way that I handled it, if I had a Black lady doing one thing, I always mixed it, integrated. It was a little difficult because some of the Black women felt that you should do things a certain way, because you were Black, but that's not the way you work those things. | 1:26 |
Karen Ferguson | They were all women working under you? | 1:51 |
Harry L. Forden | Mostly women. | 1:51 |
Karen Ferguson | White women didn't have any problem taking direction from you? | 1:54 |
Harry L. Forden | No, they were real good. In fact, some of them followed me at GE, and when I see some of them now, we still have that relationship, friendly relationship. | 2:02 |
Karen Ferguson | Was your wife working? | 2:10 |
Harry L. Forden | I was divorced at that time. | 2:11 |
Karen Ferguson | By the time you got to American Standard. | 2:11 |
Harry L. Forden | It was difficult, because there were many women trying to bribe you, but I realized the fact that I was mature enough to realize that. | 2:15 |
Karen Ferguson | Then you moved to General Electric, is that right? | 2:25 |
Harry L. Forden | I went to General Electric. When General Electric first came to Wilmington, I arranged for a meeting for them in the Black community. I met Doug Curley, who was the public relations manager at General Electric, and in fact, him and I served on the Good Neighbor Council together. | 2:26 |
Harry L. Forden | He was first vice chairman, I was second, and out of that relationship, when things felt like they were about to fall apart at American Standard, I made the approach, and I was fortunate enough to be successful in getting that job, and it paid off. | 2:50 |
Harry L. Forden | If you need me, just holler. We can continue. That's the story as far as that job is concerned. | 3:12 |
Karen Ferguson | You lived in Brooklyn that whole— | 3:21 |
Harry L. Forden | I've lived in Brooklyn all my life. | 3:24 |
Karen Ferguson | When did you start your political activity? When did you start getting involved in Democratic politics? | 3:29 |
Harry L. Forden | I was quite a young man. I guess I was in my late 20s. | 3:41 |
Karen Ferguson | So it was in the '50s or early '60s? | 3:49 |
Harry L. Forden | It was in the early '60s. | 3:59 |
Karen Ferguson | How did you get involved in that? | 4:01 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, I got involved mainly because people saw my interests in the church, my church activities. By being a resident of the area, and born and raised in the area, they were looking for someone to unseat the person that was serving in their capacity. They approached me, several of them approached me, much older than I were, and they approached me and felt that I was the person. | 4:04 |
Karen Ferguson | Can you tell me a little bit about local Democratic politics at this time? Was it dominated by Whites even in the Black neighborhoods? Who was the precinct leader before, was he Black? | 4:39 |
Harry L. Forden | He was Black. | 4:50 |
Karen Ferguson | There already had been a change that Blacks were voting Democratic here? | 4:52 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes. This was brought about before then, mainly because of people living in the district. It would not be fair for a White person to live on Martin Street and be chairman of this district. | 4:59 |
Karen Ferguson | When did that change? | 5:23 |
Harry L. Forden | That changed in the early '60s. | 5:25 |
Karen Ferguson | There was a change in the Democratic Party locally, Blacks got in control. Why did that happen? What things were happening in national level or another level, what made that happen? | 5:30 |
Harry L. Forden | You can just leave that. I'll take care of it. The district line, the district line was drawn like in this precinct. The voters in this ward, they vote from Smith Creek to Red Cross Street, and thank you and come back. | 5:42 |
Speaker 2 | Thank you. | 6:00 |
Harry L. Forden | And so forth as from Mug Street to Castle, there's another precinct. This is how I got involved. Then after getting involved, we started to mapping out strategies as far as getting people to register to vote. | 6:04 |
Harry L. Forden | Now at election time, there were White politicians would come to the precinct chairman and ask the precinct chairman, the precinct committee to use their influence to get voters to vote for them. And this lasts for a long period of time in all the precincts, especially in the Black precincts. And they had what is known as slates that they were put out and ask the candidate to vote for those persons. | 6:25 |
Karen Ferguson | What other kinds of organizations did you belong to after you left school and started working? Did you belong to any fraternal organizations? | 7:05 |
Harry L. Forden | Yes, I was a Master Mason, and also I've been my member of the Elks Club. As far as community, I've served in so many in the numbers of capacity. | 7:14 |
Karen Ferguson | Why did you join the Masons? | 7:26 |
Speaker 3 | How you doing, Mr. Ford? | 7:26 |
Harry L. Forden | How you doing, Mr. [indistinct 00:07:31]? Just give me a minute, Miss Ferguson. | 7:26 |
Speaker 3 | [indistinct 00:07:32] | 7:26 |
Harry L. Forden | Nice to see you. | 7:41 |
Harry L. Forden | Ma'am, I'm ready. | 7:41 |
Karen Ferguson | It's your lunchtime rush. | 7:43 |
Harry L. Forden | I'm all right. Don't worry about me. Today's a slow day, the first of the month is gone. | 7:45 |
Karen Ferguson | Now, why did you join the Elks and the Masons? What was— | 7:53 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, because of Mason, because what that organization stands for. The Elks Club was more or less a social activity group. I went in there, but I never did participate too much. | 8:00 |
Karen Ferguson | What about the Masons? What was it about them, what do they stand for? | 8:17 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, it's based on Christianity, if you're familiar with Solomon in the Bible that would give you a full education of Mason. It's I think one the greatest fraternal organization that any man from belong to, and it has a very rich background of things that will help to improve men's lives if they believe in the foundation of it. | 8:22 |
Karen Ferguson | Are the Masons involved in local politics? | 8:58 |
Harry L. Forden | No. Mason don't get too involved. | 9:00 |
Karen Ferguson | Now— | 9:02 |
Harry L. Forden | I mean as an organization. | 9:05 |
Karen Ferguson | Individuals. Was there any other reason? What has it meant to you? Has it helped you in your political life or being a Mason or what has it meant to your life and your career to belong to these organizations? | 9:07 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, it meant a lot to my life. It helped me to realize responsibilities, more males, and as far as it blend into what I tried to do on a religious and community base. | 9:30 |
Karen Ferguson | I think I'm pretty much finished with my questions. Is there anything that I haven't asked you about that you'd like to talk about that I haven't asked you? | 10:06 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, Miss Ferguson, the only thing that I would like to do, and we endeavor to do this under my leadership and with others, we are putting forth every effort that we possibly can to bring Fourth Street back. | 10:18 |
Harry L. Forden | I feel real good about it, because the relationship has been so good for all the merchants in there, White and Black. Recently, we've been selected as a site for the health center. The city fathers have seen fit, city fathers and councilmen, Captain Moore, they have seen fit to put aside a special amount of money to help upgrade this area. | 10:38 |
Harry L. Forden | As far as [indistinct 00:11:13] is concerned, whereby that the small businessman, or businesswoman, might have had problems going to the bank, to any financial institution to get the funds to repair or to buy in there to make our street more attractive and bring shoppers into the area. The Merchants Association has taken upon themselves that they're planting trees, strawberry, and to give better service so that other people will come into the area and want shop here. | 11:11 |
Harry L. Forden | The health center will employ over 29 persons, who will add a bigger attraction to this area. It's something that we have labored real hard for, and we are very grateful for the cooperation that we've gotten. In as much as I have worked in ceremonies [indistinct 00:12:08], I feel that the people deserve much appreciation for their willingness to want to see this come about. | 11:46 |
Harry L. Forden | I also feel that there are a lot of other things that lie ahead for this area, good things. The housing conditions is being improved. I think that as far as the conduct of people that do not live in the area, or people who have bad attitudes toward the area will increase with the other leadership of this chief that we have with the city of Wilmington. | 12:17 |
Harry L. Forden | This council has been very good to us. The people gradually realizing that we have facilities here in other areas. There are so many improvements and I don't think that one person can take the credit for it. I'm very appreciative that this community has given me an opportunity to serve. | 12:46 |
Harry L. Forden | As far as me as an individual, I should always cherish what we've done together in this area. So I feel that we can look ahead for a very bright future. There's no question about that. I believe in this and upon my retirement, I will be able to do more. It's been a pleasure not only serving the community, but to have people like you to come in and show the interest and let us share. | 13:16 |
Karen Ferguson | I realize now that I haven't asked you about the store. When did you buy the store? When did you start over? | 13:48 |
Harry L. Forden | Well, we started this store 24 years ago. | 13:53 |
Karen Ferguson | 24 years ago. | 13:54 |
Harry L. Forden | And this came about, this was not something that I really wanted to do, but there was a fellow, he said to me, he said, White fellow, he said, "Boy," he said, "you always seem to be a person who wanted to do something." And he said that, "I realize that you've been trying to bring other business in the area, but you start this." And at that time they were selling all used stuff in this place. [indistinct 00:14:35] when we cleaned up. And from that, it grew to this. | 13:56 |
Harry L. Forden | We bought a few wigs, which were very popular back there. And I like to think that we sell more wigs here than anybody in town. But my brother sent me a hundred wigs from New York at a dollar each, and we were trying to sell them for 3.98. And this fellow who was a salesman, he came in and he said, "You put those wigs to 8.98 and they'll sell them." | 14:40 |
Harry L. Forden | And that was real good because people used to pass by and go downtown, but now they would stop and make the purchase here. So that really mean a lot. How you doing? | 15:03 |
Speaker 4 | All right. | 15:14 |
Harry L. Forden | Nice to see you. | 15:17 |
Speaker 4 | [indistinct 00:15:26] | 15:25 |
Harry L. Forden | Are we going to be longer? | 15:25 |
Karen Ferguson | We can stop now. That's fine. | 15:27 |
Harry L. Forden | We can go back there. That's my son. He— | 15:28 |
Item Info
The preservation of the Duke University Libraries Digital Collections and the Duke Digital Repository programs are supported in part by the Lowell and Eileen Aptman Digital Preservation Fund