George Brown interview recording, 1994 June 23

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Paul Ortiz	Mr. Brown, could you tell me where you were born and a little bit about the area that you grew up in?	0:02
George Brown	I was born in Dallas County. That's down below Selma, Alabama. I was born near and around Street Manual Training School area.	0:12
Paul Ortiz	What kind of work did your parents do?	0:36
George Brown	Well, my parents worked farm work, and they didn't have anything else to do. Later on, my dad got a job working for his brother, which was my uncle. My uncle owned the Street Manual Training School. Those jobs couldn't pay anything because they weren't getting any money themselves. But anyway, he made a living out of it.	0:39
Paul Ortiz	Did your parents own the farm?	1:04
George Brown	We bought a little land, but we didn't own anything. Not very much land was owned. It was all just about gobbled up by Whites.	1:08
Paul Ortiz	So you were sharecroppers growing up, or—	1:18
George Brown	Well, they would always sharecrop, but in this particular area, you could get land if you would farm on half. It's like you owned the farm, "Yeah," he'd say, "I'd like to farm on half with you."	1:22
George Brown	"Yes, sir. I'll take you up on that."	1:44
George Brown	That's just the beginning of it. When you think you are farming on half, and he give you corn, sweet potatoes, millet, sugarcane, everything that he gives you is going to be on the record. And you farm, and if you raise 10 bales of cotton, five bales of cotton belongs to the owner. Then when he come round, he asks to see how much corn did you made. If you made four wagon loads of corn, two belongs to him. Sweet potatoes, if you made 50 bushels, 25 bushels belongs to him. Whatever it might be. Everything that you've got. When you give him his half, you've got to pay him out of your half. When you pay out of your half, you'd be just like you were when you first started, because you owe it all out.	1:47
Paul Ortiz	What kind of relationship did your parents have with the landowner?	2:53
George Brown	Well, they didn't—You had a relation, but you had to hide it, because you couldn't tell them you're angry because you didn't have anything. You're living on his land. If he run you away, you had nowhere to go. So far as they knew each other, they called you a nigger. They didn't mind that at all. We didn't care anything about that. And if he come out and wanted you to do something, he wanted you to do it. He had—go give you something, he'll tell you, didn't he? He'll tell you, "I thank you, you boys." That was all there was to it. That's how that part runs in there.	3:05
George Brown	And we suffered. We suffered the lack of education. We suffered from the lack of food. We had no way of getting it. And I always said if I ever got big enough, I wanted to get out in the world, see could I do something to help my parents. Some of my parents, my mother passed. Then I had some sisters and brothers. And I got a little job up at Selma, Alabama, making $4 a week. I'd send them $2 or $3. They could buy food out of it. Things was real cheap back in those days.	3:53
Paul Ortiz	How old were you when you got that first job?	4:45
George Brown	When I got that job, I was about 18 years old.	4:46
Paul Ortiz	And what were you doing?	4:47
George Brown	Well, you work around grocery stores, work in farmers markets, anything. Cut grass. Anything necessary. And once you get your job set up, you'd have something to do each day, see? So far as making a whole lot of money, we didn't get that. We didn't get that then.	4:51
George Brown	And I worked there awhile, and finally, I said, "Well, I saved me a few dollars." And I left there and caught a freight train, went to Montgomery, Alabama. Got to Montgomery. We caught a milk truck out of there and rode a milk truck. We worked our way from Montgomery to Birmingham. We'd pick up milk for the man and he'd say, "Well, boys, I ain't got nothing to give you. I'll give y'all a big bucket of milk." He gave us a big bucket of milk, and that was our pay to get from Montgomery to Birmingham.	5:12
George Brown	I got here and fooled around here and found an old job, never will forget it. Making $4 a week. That was big money. You'd walk everywhere you went. You wanted to ride the street car, it didn't cost you but a nickel to ride it, if you could afford it.	5:54
George Brown	And later on, I got another little job. Then I got a job at Sloss-Sheffield. I saw all that heat. You'd go by a blast furnace, which when they was flushing or catching, they'd light up the whole elements. Sloss would have two blast furnaces in North Birmingham. We had two on 1st Avenue and 31st Street.	6:13
George Brown	Then in the city of Birmingham, along with Sloss, we had Republic Steel. They had two, three blast furnaces. Right below Republic Steel, you had the Tennessee Coal Mine Railroad, which had about 15 or 20 blast furnaces. And those furnaces would catch, and when they let slag out of them, they would light up the city of Birmingham.	6:45
George Brown	And we were working, but later on the people wanted—said it was pollution. We got clean air and no furnaces, nothing to do. Sometimes you cut off your nose to spite your face, that's what happened in some of these cases here, to tell the truth.	7:19
Paul Ortiz	Now, when you were growing up, do you remember your grandparents?	7:42
George Brown	Yes. My grandfather was African. He was a full-blooded African. He was brought in this country and sold. He couldn't speak American language very much. There was quite a few here. The [indistinct 00:08:05], they were here. They were brought from Africa. And the way, what they tell me, when they'd get them off the boat, they'd put them on a block. And the White man that had the money wanted to bid on them, he'd buy them for $5 or $10. And you was his slave, see? He had charge of you.	7:46
Paul Ortiz	Did your grandfather used to tell stories about those days?	8:34
George Brown	Oh, yes. Oh, yes.	8:39
Paul Ortiz	What kinds of stories did he tell?	8:45
George Brown	They would tell you how they were being whooped, buked, treated like dogs. They couldn't help themselves. They couldn't tell it. And he says there was a gang of them was killed. They'd get mad and they'd kill you. Mistreat you. Do other few things they'd make you do, but you was under bondage. You couldn't have no more to tell. And so that was a hard pill to swallow.	8:53
George Brown	But by the help of the good Lord, the Black man held his head up. We worked. That's why you hear these plantation melodies, these songs that they sing, it was the way the slave would communicate to each other, warning them about trouble. That's why you'd sing those songs. They would sing a song, Down By the Riverside, and all like that. And that's the way they would contact, then they would know what was going on. We'd warn the other ones, they say, and we looked out for each other.	9:32
George Brown	And I believe my granddaddy said that he was pretty stout. They took him and he would breed women to get more men children working. They called them nigger children, but they brought them into the farm to do work. And it was kind of awful the way they gave it to you, but it was just true. It was true. And that happened even during my boyhood. But you had to hold your head up, use the word, "Yes sir, no sir," keep a smile on your face, go out the way to help people. That's how we got through the world.	10:17
Paul Ortiz	Did your grandfather ever talk about Africa?	11:03
George Brown	Well, he said he was quite young when they brought him over here. And he had said the way they were caught, in a boat, with long 2 x 12s sticking up, and they had a [indistinct 00:11:24] where they couldn't get out.	11:06
George Brown	And while you're down Tuskegee Institute, I think you could find a record for George Washington Carver, and he will be there. See if you can find that record showing you where he got lost with his mother on a boat, and the boat landed up in the Carolinas, up in the area we're talking about. And a White man could see some good in him. And he was a genius on anything that he went to do. And the White man sent him down and made a recommendation to send him down to Tuskegee Institute. That's why he got in there, and I think he went to school, somewhat educated him, helped him out. Booker T. Washington, that bunch.	11:28
George Brown	All that, if I'm not putting it together, but it's based upon the same thing. You can find that out. And he was so smart, he came to be a scientist, and he could analyze anything if he—He's just that smart. He's born with it. He took sweet potato vines and made ink. Took the sweet potatoes and made gold. And he took up medicine. There's a cow that—When you get down there, I hope when you get into there—You haven't seen that, have you? He got the skeleton of a cow been there about 60 years. That cow is still down there. You'll see it. And he worked on that cow when the cow's leg was broken. He went and took the skeleton and put it together when the cow died. They got that in the museum down there now.	12:23
Paul Ortiz	You talked about your grandfather.	13:19
George Brown	Yeah.	13:22
Paul Ortiz	Do you remember your grandmother?	13:22
George Brown	Estelle. Estella Brown. That was her name. Brun, but we changed it from Brun to Brown, see?	13:26
Paul Ortiz	Uh-huh. Did she used to tell you stories?	13:39
George Brown	No. They weren't educated. We just would go to school, see each other, farm, talk.	13:46
Paul Ortiz	Did they live with you?	13:55
George Brown	No. We lived in a little house, little one room house that dad built. I believe we had about five or six brothers and sisters. We all stayed in that one room. Had nowhere else to stay. That was it.	13:58
Paul Ortiz	Did your grandparents own land?	14:14
George Brown	We bought land, but we didn't—During my time, they didn't have nothing to buy it with. They wouldn't sell it to you.	14:19
Paul Ortiz	Did things improve once your parents were able to buy land?	14:26
George Brown	Let me hear that last.	14:33
Paul Ortiz	Did your living conditions improve once your parents bought the land?	14:34
George Brown	Well, the only way it improved, you still had to have help. The land and the house, you ain't got no money to buy no corn with, you're not getting very far. It was a problem.	14:39
George Brown	The man that had it, he had you by both legs. You couldn't hardly get a thing done, and just every now and then you would see a Black man, a blacksmith, if he could farm and raise enough to make a living. If you got good land, you could farm that land without buying too much fertilizer and get in debt. And back in those days, you had good farming land. You could take a place and raise food, it was so cheap. Once you get caught up, and if you have sense enough to hold onto it, you could advance the best by raising cows, hogs, chickens. Wasn't anything else. Nothing else that I know. But I don't see how we made it, but we made it. That's what we did, made it.	14:55
Paul Ortiz	Do you remember, were there a lot of Black blacksmiths and people like that?	15:58
George Brown	Oh, yes. Now, blacksmiths was really needed because you didn't have any—I remember when you didn't have no automobiles, see. We had horse and buggies, that's why you'd see blacksmiths. Blacksmiths had to pitch, make horseshoes for your horses and wagons and things of that type. No bulldozers, no tractors, no anything like that. Yeah.	16:04
Paul Ortiz	Did you go to school while you were in Dallas County?	16:34
George Brown	I did. I went to school there, and I worked most—I stayed busy doing something, because we had gotten into what we had. We had a boarding school in part of it there. And they operated that school off the public, the people. The Jews and all nationality of people was helping because it was a Black institution, a Black school. The White man would help you. If you want to conduct yourself and went about it right, he'd help you. And the Jews would help the Black people. I don't know how the relationship broke off like it did, but the Jews was the one that if you were nice to Jews, Jews would help you. That's who I worked for in Selma, Jews. He ain't going to give you no money, but he'll give you a job, see?	16:37
Paul Ortiz	Do you remember the name of that school?	17:35
George Brown	What, my uncle's school? Oh, it was Street Manual.	17:37
Paul Ortiz	Can you spell that?	17:41
George Brown	Spell that? Street Manual Training School.	17:44
Paul Ortiz	Oh, Street?	17:45
George Brown	Street Manual Training School.	17:47
Paul Ortiz	Okay. His last name was Street?	17:50
George Brown	Street, that's right.	17:51
Paul Ortiz	What was his first name?	17:51
George Brown	Emmanuel, M—	17:51
George Brown	Emmanuel MacDuffie Brown.	17:51
Paul Ortiz	Street Manual School.	17:51
George Brown	That's right.	17:51
Paul Ortiz	And was that in a town in—	18:09
George Brown	No. Rural area. Just a small place out. It had buildings. I got that picture. It got buildings, but the industrial building is still there. The dormitories were having—I made a film of that. They're having hot food lunches in some part of the buildings. And the domestic science building is still there, but the trees grew up around it. But I made a picture of it.	18:14
Paul Ortiz	You did?	18:40
George Brown	Oh, yeah, I got a picture of it. I'm going to try to get that ready. I want to make a connection with you. Wherever you go, I want to get you a copy and—	18:41
Paul Ortiz	Yeah. We have a copy machine right here that we can take pictures and copy it.	18:51
George Brown	I could've got that film and re-run it off of there, couldn't I?	18:52
Paul Ortiz	I'll be here until next Friday.	18:52
George Brown	Oh. I'm going to see if I can get that.	18:52
Paul Ortiz	Okay. [indistinct 00:19:06].	18:54
George Brown	I'd like to let you see that. You can take that film and re-run it.	19:06
Paul Ortiz	Yeah. If it's a picture, we can just—We have a copy scanner, it's about this big, just put it down and we just take a picture of it. That would be really valuable for our collection. So how many months out of the year would you go to school?	19:14
George Brown	Well, in the country we—Let me see, we went directly to—I don't think we went the eight months. We didn't go quite—See, you had farming coming. You couldn't stay in school. Right after Christmas, not long after Christmas, you had to get ready to go to plant up land, planting corn, and you couldn't get a full education. You got to go to work.	19:33
Paul Ortiz	Did you ever work for other families?	20:07
George Brown	Oh, yes. If they wanted to pick cotton, you'd help them, or plant corn, or help them do something, or harvest corn. We always helped each other, see?	20:10
Paul Ortiz	You'd help the other Black families?	20:20
George Brown	How's that?	20:21
Paul Ortiz	You'd help the other Black families?	20:22
George Brown	Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And the White man, you'd pick cotton for him, but he didn't pay you nothing for it. He didn't pay you nothing. But you couldn't grumble because you didn't have nothing.	20:24
Paul Ortiz	What was the community like, the African American community?	20:39
George Brown	Well, let me see now, to tell you we—Actually, until I came to Birmingham, in the country you got nothing but country, where I came from. And you'd get around, you had to get around on a wagon or ride a mule, ride a steer. We used to plow with steer, you know? You ever seen a steer? Yeah? We used to plow them. That's what we had to get around.	20:45
Paul Ortiz	Was there any time or any occasion when people would come together?	21:19
George Brown	Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Now, we would have big meetings. What do you mean by big meeting? At Campbell Chapel, which was an AME church. Campbell Chapel, where I was born and bred, they would pick their Sunday. All right? Hopewell Baptists would have theirs. And another part was County Line. I remember that church. They had their celebration, usually be on the fourth Sunday in September, something like that, but they had a date each month. That's in order to have a big showing. And then we would have wagons would bring food. They'd be cooking, and they'd have a big eat at the church. Big celebration. It was something to see that. But anyway, we lived through it.	21:26
Paul Ortiz	And would those occasions be where churches would combine people from different churches?	22:30
George Brown	Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's the way they would do that. They would do it. We'd have Whites would come and we'd celebrate and have eating and have fun. We had Whites would come over. He wouldn't come in the church, but he'd stand up there in the church wondering and looking in, so he's enjoying himself too, see? So we didn't care. We didn't care. We never did have—we didn't have no hate in our hearts against anyone. We would think about it when you're abused, some of us. And the people that was character was so low, the average White man would get shame with that. He wouldn't fool with him. He'd let him go. They quit fooling on with him. All that was in it to make a living.	22:34
Paul Ortiz	Did you ever hear about people stealing away?	23:26
George Brown	Doing what now?	23:30
Paul Ortiz	Did you hear people use the term stealing away?	23:31
George Brown	Stealing away?	23:33
Paul Ortiz	Yeah.	23:33
George Brown	Talking about dying?	23:33
Paul Ortiz	No.	23:34
George Brown	Stealing away from what now?	23:40
Paul Ortiz	Like leaving plantations.	23:41
George Brown	Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You had they'd run off. There's plenty of people would run off overnight and leave a plantation, hide in the woods. And if he ever caught a train, maybe got some connections, oh, they'll leave the country. They'll go to towns.	23:43
George Brown	See, when I was down in the woods there, we was in hopes of leaving. Everybody you see, you'd see somebody leave and come back. They called coming to Birmingham was going north. You'd come up here and get you a job. Then that got to be a regular thing. People went to leaving the farms, coming to cities, getting jobs, just like I did. We had the plants and the factories and we needed people to work. And the country people were willing to work. We'd be working when the city bunch was walking the street. Wouldn't have that. We're trained to work. We knew how to do it. Yeah. All that's in there.	24:03
Paul Ortiz	Do you remember times when plantation owners would come to Birmingham and try to take people back to work their plantations?	24:45
George Brown	Well, they would try to do it, but you couldn't persuade him. You couldn't make him come back, because wasn't no—You couldn't load him up a nigger, but they tried it. But see, when they were leaving their farm, they weren't able to sit down on that old oak tree and say, "I'm watching the niggers picking cotton, or chopping cotton." He'd sit there all day long on that old oak tree and watch you work. And you knew you was black as a rubber tire buggy out there in that hot sun. But all that's true. God knows every word of it is true. We lived through it though.	24:59
George Brown	That's like I told you, my plan was just like some of the rest. That's why I left the country, went to Selma, Alabama. I left Selma, Alabama and went to the capital of Alabama. I was in Montgomery. Montgomery to Birmingham, that's when I came here and got a job.	25:47
Paul Ortiz	Now, you went to Selma when you were 18 years old?	26:05
George Brown	Yeah.	26:05
Paul Ortiz	And how old were you when you to Montgomery?	26:05
George Brown	Montgomery? I was in Selma about a year, I guess, or something like that. Maybe 19. Something of that type.	26:12
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	26:12
George Brown	Then I came to Birmingham, look at that fire burning. Didn't know where to go. I stayed with someone. The other guy was named George. He was in the army, World War I. He and I took up. We were together. So I think I got a job first and I took care of George. Then George got a job. And we was good friends down through the years. He had a family and I had a family. He passed and I'm still living.	26:23
Paul Ortiz	Could you tell me one more time how you got to Montgomery and then how you got to Birmingham from there?	27:00
George Brown	Oh, yeah. I left Selma, Alabama. I think I caught a truck, an old truck. And he brought me to Selma and crossed Alabama River Bridge. He put me out. And I had an uncle working for the L&M Railroad. I stayed with him two or three days. He said, "Well, I ain't got nowhere for you to stay."	27:08
George Brown	"Yes, sir."	27:43
George Brown	Well, I didn't have nothing. Didn't have any choice. And I talked with a Black man, that's when my uncle wouldn't let me stay with him. I was just out of the country. He said, "Boy, I've got a little outhouse."	27:44
George Brown	I said, "Yeah, that'd be just fine."	28:00
George Brown	And he gave me food. And he helped me. He gave me 50 cents. 50 cents would last you a week.	28:02
Paul Ortiz	This was in Montgomery?	28:13
George Brown	No, this was in Selma.	28:16
Paul Ortiz	In Selma?	28:16
George Brown	Yeah. Then later on, I got this little old job, see? But what my point is, I didn't have nothing to begin with. And I had an uncle, he's working for the L&M Railroad Company at Selma. So he turned his back on me, but that was what God worked, because I knew I could help myself. That'll just go to show you how God will help you. If I treats you right and do right by you, I receive a message from on high and a blessing. That's true. You do right by people, regardless of what, God will help you. And he's been good to me for 84 years, and I tell you, I've been feeling very grateful about it too. Yeah.	28:17
Paul Ortiz	How did you get the job that took you to Montgomery?	29:10
George Brown	To Montgomery?	29:13
Paul Ortiz	Yeah.	29:14
George Brown	I didn't have a job. I caught the Western Railroad. They had a Western run out of Selma to Montgomery. And I was going to catch a train, but I caught this milk truck that I told you about, and we rode it to Birmingham, 10th Avenue, 28th Street. That's where that man paid us for picking up the five gallons of milk. Everywhere you stop. Of course, we had to get to Birmingham free. He gave us a big bucket of milk and that was our pay. We drunk that milk though. But you don't know what you can do. We drank that milk. I was used to being home in the country. Didn't go bad with me. And by the help of God, I stayed a year, worked.	29:15
Paul Ortiz	What year did you move into Birmingham?	30:29
George Brown	Into Birmingham? Let me see. I believe it was in 1929, I believe. Nearest I can come to it, 1928 or '29, but it was in the '20 years.	30:29
Paul Ortiz	What was Birmingham like for Black people in 1929?	30:29
George Brown	Well, it wasn't a living. It was rough. The people, you see, you had so many nationality of people. Then you had a whole lot of good White people. It wasn't as bad as you said it was. You have to give the devil credit. But we had this going both ways. We had some nice people, then we had some lowdown people. And then we had bad city commissioners, like Jimmy Jones. He was a city commissioner. Later on, we had Bull Connor. You've been hearing them talk about him, I know. I knew him personally.	30:41
Paul Ortiz	Oh really?	31:18
George Brown	Oh, yeah. But he was racist as hell. He was racist, but he wanted to be seen, and he had the votes. That's how he would get votes. See, I couldn't vote. I couldn't go to no poll. Black man couldn't vote.	31:20
Paul Ortiz	Do you know anybody that tried?	31:40
George Brown	Oh yeah, one man tried. A friend of mine.	31:42
Paul Ortiz	What was his name?	31:47
George Brown	William H. Hatchet.	31:48
Paul Ortiz	Hackett?	31:49
George Brown	Hatchet. And he went to the courthouse. And he had an education, a valuable education. And when he went down to the court, the man they had in charge of the polls couldn't even read, but he said, "Nigger, you [indistinct 00:32:17]."	31:50
George Brown	He said, "Now, listen what this question means. I've given you the answer to this question. I've given you the answer to this question. I put it on." He said, "This is what you should do." And he stayed right there and he got qualified, and he was a—William H. Hatchet was the first Black man that became a voter.	32:17
Paul Ortiz	What year was that?	32:41
George Brown	Now, that was in 1931, I believe, or '32. I can't give you that correct figure. Been a long time. But he was qualified.	32:54
George Brown	Now, we had well-educated Black people here, but they couldn't help themselves. We'd have them on the board of directors at Masonic Fraternal Order of Masonry here in Birmingham. We've got our building down there. I'm a Shriner. We couldn't wear our fez out in the streets. Couldn't put your fez on, wear it out in the street. Then we had a big lawsuit about it. They got together. A big lawsuit. The White Shriners, yapping on, trying to take our material from us. Prince Hall, masonry.	32:56
George Brown	The Jews took Prince Hall out of Boston, Massachusetts. Once they carried him to England, carried this Black man to England, Prince Hall, and carried him into King Solomon's temple over there, and he joined the royal arch. See, King Solomon's temple is blocks and blocks and blocks long, you know? And that's when the Black man, when he came back, they had the charter. Now, how are you going to get out of a foreign country with a charter? You carry nothing in and you bring nothing out.	34:01
George Brown	And that Jew had him to hollow—take a walking cane and hollow it out inside and brought that charter from the King Solomon's temple, and put it in there. He gave the Black man the charter right to masonry. We just don't push it, because you don't push it because you make your living off this job of the White man. You got to look at this thing both ways. You make your living off of them. If you make your living off of him, don't try to fight him. But when he found out that the Black man had his charter rights, which we could've came in, and that's like you see all of them with the fezzes on, with their stuff on. We could've blocked them out. We didn't do that. We had to live. We were better than them. You be good to people and good things will come to you. And that's the way I like to have it.	34:33
Paul Ortiz	So have a charter, but they didn't want you to—	35:30
George Brown	They didn't have a charter rights, because the Jews gave it to Prince Hall.	35:33
Paul Ortiz	Okay. What year was the lawsuit that you filed?	35:40
George Brown	Beg your pardon?	35:41
Paul Ortiz	You said you filed a lawsuit.	35:43
George Brown	Well, we filed a lawsuit, that was 1923. 1923. And we couldn't wear our fez in the streets. But we went to the Supreme Court. It's in the records in the Supreme Court now, where we have the charter right to a Shrine of masonry. And your Blue Lodge. See, you got your Blue Lodge, your Royal Lodge, Knights Templar and your Shriners, all that stuff. But we had to live. And we done better by just backing out of the way, you see?	35:44
George Brown	I'm just giving you an idea about those things what actually happened. It's got to work both ways. They had advantage of us down through the years. We were treated like dogs. We lived through it.	36:20
George Brown	But God, he didn't die, so the gang that was living survived from it. We let them alone, we didn't have no more trouble out of them two.	36:34
Paul Ortiz	So where was your first job at, and how did you get it?	36:46
George Brown	Talking about now job here in Birmingham?	36:51
Paul Ortiz	In Birmingham.	36:51
George Brown	Now, let me tell you. We had, downtown—I want you to write this down—the Tutwiler Hotel was on 5th Avenue and 20th Street North. That was a White hotel there. Joe Limms was the chef cook's name at that hotel. He came out and said, "Do someone want Budweiser?"	36:52
George Brown	"I do. Yes, sir." I said, "I would like to have one Budweiser."	37:15
George Brown	See, a pot washer, his job was to wash pots with your first cook. I just needed to apply to me when I clean them, get them pots, clean up, probably give you a job. We got a dollar a day. Dollar a day, Tutwiler Hotel.	37:25
George Brown	But them rich people was using these hotels and places. They owned them. And they was segregated, but they let you work. We wanted to eat. That's what—I'm just giving you the highlights of the whole thing. And I worked at that hotel for years and years. And I'd walk over the viaduct backwards and forwards. I was living about six, seven miles from town. I walked.	37:44
Paul Ortiz	You walked?	38:14
George Brown	Walked, oh, hell yeah. Sure, you walked. You walked everywhere. You could do it. Walked back. Guy used to get off at 10 o'clock at night, walk back, walk back. The streetcar. We would ride—We got a place, we walked from work too. But in the streets you used to have all these lights. Every now and then you'd get to a light. But didn't nobody bother anyone. No one bothered you but the policeman. That was his job, meddle with you. He just had to do it. They'd beat you.	38:17
Paul Ortiz	What were the police like?	38:55
George Brown	Policemen? They were low down. They were awful. There were some policemen didn't like that stuff. They were nice people, well raised. But a policeman would beat your brains out you if you didn't [indistinct 00:39:08].	39:02
Paul Ortiz	Do you remember cases where you knew people who were beat up?	39:10
George Brown	Oh, yeah. They were beat up. We had Patterson, they caught him and put him in jail and accused him of raping a White woman. He died in jail. Man didn't do nothing. A gang of them was picked up. You had no choice. Nothing you could do. Had the upper on you. But we played hard and we worked hard. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.	39:14
Paul Ortiz	Where did you go to church in Birmingham? Did you start going to church right away, or did you—	39:42
George Brown	Yeah. Well now, the church, our churches was in Black [indistinct 00:39:56]. Now, back in those days, people had respect for the churches, religion, and each other. We served God. They're away from it now. They're not doing it.	39:55
Paul Ortiz	What church did you go to?	40:09
George Brown	I was a member of Tabernacle Baptist Church, which was down yonder. Church was on 8th Avenue and 1st Street North now. And then my daughter was a member of 16th Street, right across the street here. This is a long story, but I got to tell you about it. My daughter would've been dead the time that they bombed 16th Street Baptist Church. Chris McNaire. I guess you've heard those names. He's on that board, record around there. Sally Anderson's daughter. W. Wesley's daughter. W. Armstrong's daughter. Those four girls came to church together, 16th Street. They rigged this church right over here, the back door, and those kids went in the basement and that blowed them up and killed every one of them. Right in the church over there.	40:10
George Brown	They knew about it. The people knew who done it. They didn't do nothing about it. What we had to do as a human being, the Black man got together and let's don't fight. That was Martin Luther King's password. He wanted to fight. He wanted to win battles by nonviolence. We were taught that. We were beaten. We were kicked with a water hose right up the street here. Blown all upside the buildings, beaten with sticks. So what we did do, we took it.	41:24
George Brown	We wouldn't fight back. I've seen a lady with all of her tops, brassiere off and nothing but her skirt, water hosed right up the street. Right there. It was just to tell you and think about it. We suffered. We suffered a whole lot.	42:18
George Brown	This was White people in here. All in here. But now, they didn't go to church over there though. This, it's been something.	42:45
Paul Ortiz	So you were working at the Tutwiler Hotel.	42:55
George Brown	Tutwiler Hotel, yeah. Yeah. I worked there quite awhile. And I walked over the viaduct and saw a bunch of men over there. I said, "I'll make more money over here." Get a job at Sloss, won't make but a dollar a day. One of the Slosses were tearing out one of their furnaces. Had about 2-300,000 bricks and tear them out and re-line it. I got in there, got a job, worked. Got—men took care of me, showed me how to do it.	42:59
Paul Ortiz	Was it 1929?	43:37
George Brown	Yeah. '29, '30. Once you go in and get the experience of a blast furnace, what to do, learn the safety part about it, you can do pretty good. You could always be able to help someone else too. And I learned it. I took it. Long as they had work. They got work during this particular time—During that last year, got down to—We worked, one, two shifts or more. Go to the commissary down there, they'd let you have something to eat. Go back to work till you pay for it. And Sloss, they got one, two big orders, started the furnaces up, we went back to work.	43:38
Paul Ortiz	In the '30s.	44:23
George Brown	That's right.	44:23
Paul Ortiz	Do you remember the convict lease program?	44:23
George Brown	Oh, what kind of program was that now? Convict?	44:23
Paul Ortiz	Yeah.	44:23
George Brown	Oh.	44:23
Paul Ortiz	I heard that there were prisoners who would be put in jail and then companies like, I guess, TCI and—	44:33
George Brown	Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Sloss has done that. Sloss has done. I got one man that's living—I'd like for you to get over to him too. He worked in the mines and he knows all about that. Grumley. I think I got a card. Grumley worked at the mines doing this, and he's still living. He and I are members of the same church. And he can tell you some more about the mines too. Let me see if I got Grumley's card in here. Think that's up in here. I've got—I didn't bring that book. I've got a list of names, employees that are living. Yeah.	44:46
George Brown	See that card right there? I want you to call him.	45:37
Paul Ortiz	So he started working at the mines.	45:39
George Brown	He worked at the mines and he worked at the furnaces, and he worked at the old mines, and he worked at the coal mine, so he's a Sloss's man.	45:55
Paul Ortiz	So do you remember working with the convicts who would come to Sloss?	46:05
George Brown	No, I didn't. Tell you the truth, I didn't work—When you had the convicts, they would get them out there. You know I ain't never been to jail. I ain't never been to jail in my life.	46:11
Paul Ortiz	But you knew about that system.	46:23
George Brown	Oh, yeah, I knew about it. I knew some of the people. The company would take them and work them in the mines. I believe the state would pay them a dollar a day, or the mines would pay them a dollar a day, see?	46:24
George Brown	And Hugh Moss, which was the president of the Sloss-Sheffield Steel and Iron, he used to work prisoners in the mine. He got to be president of the company. See, when you do great things of that type, they make it pay off, if you're going to make money for them. And that's what's actual truth.	46:40
George Brown	And Grumley, I want you to call him and tell him you talked to—	46:59

Paul Ortiz	We're talking about the convicts working for Sloss—	0:01
George J. Brown	Oh yeah, the convicts. They worked in TCI Iron, that's [indistinct 00:00:15], and I think that they were paid a dollar a day for their labor.	0:14
Paul Ortiz	Did you talk with any of those people?	0:18
George J. Brown	Well I did know a few but it was way back and they would tell you how they were rebuked and scorned. I might be able to get you. I hope I can. I believe that old man passed. I made a picture of him and I taped some information and he was 94. I looked that up and Ron Bates and I, I want you to call me and let me see if I can get it—and he work in the mines, see.	0:20
George J. Brown	But I never did like to mine. I didn't.	1:00
Paul Ortiz	Did you ever work there?	1:03
George J. Brown	Oh, yeah. I worked. We had to work, but I disliked every—I always was afraid. I didn't like it. The one thing I never refused to do but I never liked working in the mine, it's too dangerous. If you work in the mine, you don't work by no telephone, you don't work by no radio. You work by signal. They're getting ready to pull coal out the mine. He's beat on a brass rod wire run down in the mine. He may be six, seven miles down when he get ready to—That man ready to start that motor and pull that car, he had a signal that he hit on that brass line and he pick it up out of the mine. They were something else.	1:04
Paul Ortiz	When you begin working at Sloss 1929, 1930, you mentioned that workers would help you out—	1:55
George J. Brown	Oh yeah, oh yeah—	2:02
Paul Ortiz	Who would help you out?	2:05
George J. Brown	Well here's what it is. When you go in a blast furnace, there were so many things. There's whistles blowing, you couldn't hear your ears. There's so many things to do, the safety part about it and if you would be courteous to the employees, and work with them, do what they say to do, they always help you. That's the way it was.	2:07
Paul Ortiz	Black workers?	2:30
George J. Brown	Black, oh sure. Well now, see, the Black man has always had the dirty work. So for the machinists, millwright, boilermaker, no. He would take me and I'll take his tools. I'd take his pipe wrench, I'd take his Stillson wrench. I would tow his tools and he would walk along, you follow him and when you get ready to take a pipe, you take it loose. He was getting paid for it.	2:32
Paul Ortiz	The White—	3:10
George J. Brown	Yeah.	3:11
Paul Ortiz	So you were like a helper?	3:12
George J. Brown	Helper? You weren't no helper. We done the work.	3:12
Paul Ortiz	You were doing the real work.	3:12
George J. Brown	Yeah, man, you couldn't help it. And we would take care of them, and by being nice to them, they changed their attitude and their spirits. The thing actually worked both ways to a certain extent. We met a whole lot of them.	3:28
Paul Ortiz	What were race relations like between Black and White workers?	3:40
George J. Brown	Well, things that weren't so good. They still had their yellow [indistinct 00:03:53] back but it was a poor class type of people. See, you're dealing with a poor class of people that a whole lot of them couldn't read, they couldn't write and he'd call you "boy" or he'd call you a "nigger" when you get around them. "Better go yonder and get them niggers to do so and so." Well, we was organized too. When he'd sling mud at us, we had a better way of slinging mud at him.	3:45
Paul Ortiz	How?	4:28
George J. Brown	We'd sit down on the work. "I don't know." You can't get nothing more out of "I don't know." Say, "I don't know what to do." He know what to do.	4:29
George J. Brown	I've seen a guy roll and fell off a job way under, that'd kill a fella one time. They'd work him to death, simply because he took a job only which you had to be qualified. They don't accept the idea of being told by a Black man. "Boy."	4:41
George J. Brown	Most of those people were taught—now they stand hating and don't know the reason why. You couldn't tell them, you couldn't tell 'em to save your life.	5:06
George J. Brown	A White brother's wife died. He didn't have a dime. I told him I wanted to—went by and said I had the money. I let him have enough money to bury his wife. You could bury your wife and get a funeral, for about $225.	5:23
George J. Brown	I told him I wanted, borrowed the money. I said, "I want my money back." He paid me back. "He is a good nigger. He out—(laughs)"	5:34
Paul Ortiz	He said that?	5:38
George J. Brown	Yeah. "He's a good nigger." Yeah. "He's a good nigger."	5:38
Paul Ortiz	Did that make you angry when he said that?	5:47
George J. Brown	Well, I was used to it. I didn't like it but I never would use those type of insinuations [indistinct 00:06:04] because it ain't in my heart. I love people. I was born and raised like that. If I couldn't do you no good, I wouldn't do you no harm. I wouldn't fight back. Fighting fire ain't no good. Somebody got to have some sense. I was taught that.	5:49
Paul Ortiz	Can you tell me about labor union organizing?	6:24
George J. Brown	Yeah, I helped organize it.	6:34
Paul Ortiz	Oh, you did?	6:45
George J. Brown	Labor union, out there at Sloss. Helped put the first flag on. It's a sad story, I'm going to tell it to you. We organized the Sloss United Mine Workers of America. District 50.	6:45
Paul Ortiz	15?	6:49
George J. Brown	50. District 50. Yeah. N.B. Ragner was the original director, Carl Waddell was a committee man, Charlie Fanchem was a committee. Those men, I could name every one of them.	6:49
Paul Ortiz	Can I get those names again?	7:10
George J. Brown	Carl Waddell .	7:10
Paul Ortiz	Carl Waddell. Two D's?	7:11
George J. Brown	Charlie Fanchem.	7:27
Paul Ortiz	Charlie. Okay, how do you spell his last name?	7:27
George J. Brown	What? What did I said?	7:27
Paul Ortiz	[indistinct 00:07:28].	7:27
George J. Brown	Just spell it the way you understand it. Fanchem, then N.B. Ragner. He's still living. Then we had Willie Joe Pupil. He's living, he was one of our union officials, Joe living. I wish you could talk to Shorty. I didn't bring my book. And there's quite a few more but those union officials. We organized and set it up. Went in that local union hall. We sat over here and they sat over there.	7:28
Paul Ortiz	Where was the hall at?	8:15
George J. Brown	Hall at? The building is north Birmingham, there on 27th Avenue.	8:18
Paul Ortiz	It's [indistinct 00:08:23]?	8:19
George J. Brown	No, no, no. Birmingham. Right here by—still Birmingham. But when Jim Waller bought that company and cut the furnaces down, the union went out just like that. We got no union, done away with, cut the union's throat. That's what Ronald Reagan done, he—	8:23
Paul Ortiz	How did you organize at Sloss?	8:37
George J. Brown	A union?	8:42
Paul Ortiz	Yeah, how did you [indistinct 00:08:49]?	8:43
George J. Brown	I'm going to tell you. When we start organizing it, we started at the city furnaces, where you went the other day. That ain't [indistinct 00:09:10]. You negotiate with the companies and you come up with [indistinct 00:09:21] your working conditions. Throw it out. [indistinct 00:09:31] If the company don't agree then they'll strike on you. Then when we strike, you go [indistinct 00:09:41]. White men didn't [indistinct 00:09:46] but yet he won't help us [indistinct 00:09:48] so we got to getting a little behind together and so I want you to hear [indistinct 00:09:57] didn't you? She said [indistinct 00:10:01] competition between us [indistinct 00:10:02] in the union.	8:48
Paul Ortiz	What was the competition?	10:07
George J. Brown	[indistinct 00:10:09] you pay 2.50 union dues, or 3.50, whatever it is, he pay 3.50. Same thing you paying, he's getting twice as much money. He's a machinist. [indistinct 00:10:25] can't bid and get no machinist job. I couldn't bid on [indistinct 00:10:28] job. I couldn't bid on electrician job. You got to have apprenticeship [indistinct 00:10:34] hire people out of the street. Ain't no apprenticeship coming over for me and so I got you just where I want you. That's [indistinct 00:10:45] union and the union just continued those things. That's why a whole lot of strikes would come in on the union. As the younger generation came over with education, that made the thing kind of show up. They could read too and they wanted to come in. They done that for a long time but we put up with it and some of those White fella's wives, they used to come home before they was bathed in the bath house. They'd run them back.	10:12
George J. Brown	They wouldn't let them get in the car because you're going to bathe before you come and get in my car. But we wouldn't rejoice, we wouldn't say anything but the women stood by and made them [indistinct 00:11:33] and bathed, respected each other.	11:18
Paul Ortiz	Oh, you mean when the bath house was [crosstalk 00:11:40]-	11:36
George J. Brown	Integrated, yeah.	11:40
Paul Ortiz	What year was that bathhouse [indistinct 00:11:42]?	11:41
George J. Brown	Bathhouse was integrated—Let's see. [indistinct 00:11:42] was going on.	11:41
Paul Ortiz	Like 1965?	11:41
George J. Brown	Well, it was in the 60s.	11:41
Paul Ortiz	[indistinct 00:11:42]	11:41
George J. Brown	But they didn't start until about 63 I think. I feel 63 because that was a rough time than [indistinct 00:11:42] the 60s but [indistinct 00:11:42].	11:41
Paul Ortiz	So the White workers' wives would come—	11:41
George J. Brown	Yeah, pick them up.	11:50
Paul Ortiz	Now the White workers didn't want to bathe in the same bathhouse.	12:14
George J. Brown	They wouldn't bathe. They were, "These dang Colored boy [indistinct 00:12:21]." We didn't want to do it. We had one White fella came in there and he was [indistinct 00:12:27] "I believe in the Millwrights," something like that. They tried to beat him up. We guarded him. We didn't bother the man.	12:25
Paul Ortiz	Why did they want to beat him up?	12:43
George J. Brown	Because they bathed in the bathhouse. That's right. [indistinct 00:12:52] whole lot of us. This stuff come up unnecessarily but if the other guy got the pressure on you, you got to go [indistinct 00:13:02]. I hated to see those things happen but now when one get sick, we'd pass [indistinct 00:13:16].	12:44
Paul Ortiz	Did a lot of people get injured working there?	13:23
George J. Brown	Sometime. Sometimes it'd get careless [indistinct 00:13:43]. Sometimes things [indistinct 00:13:43].	13:35
Paul Ortiz	Do you remember any accidents that happened?	13:35
George J. Brown	Oh, I've seen guy got [indistinct 00:13:49]. Whole lot of that and I've seen hot water steam line [indistinct 00:14:06] into your room. That's why I could assure you those things [indistinct 00:14:08] they working on a pipe. It blew up and killed two people, killed three people. Electrician, I've seen electrocuted him and a pipe spray and paint condenses, the thing around there, hit that [indistinct 00:14:34]. Whole lot of people killed like that but you just got to watch yourself [indistinct 00:14:44] steel plants and things like that. If you ought to get drunk, you better wait until you leave because if you get drunk, you'll get killed.	13:48
Paul Ortiz	Do you remember the 30s communist party organizers?	14:56
George J. Brown	I don't know. [indistinct 00:15:08] communist parties within itself, I never did. I never did [indistinct 00:15:18]. All the parties are good as long as you don't make it bad but the communist party I know, people came in and asked for your information a whole lot of times but I'd ask questions. When you talk with them, you don't [indistinct 00:15:49] somebody kill you. You won't even get involved because if you get involved, you will get killed.	15:02
Paul Ortiz	But you remember people perhaps handing out tablets?	15:56
George J. Brown	They didn't hardly ever do that.	16:08
Paul Ortiz	What did they do?	16:08
George J. Brown	They didn't hand out a pamphlet, a booklet of anything of that type. They might talk to you and tell you if they could feel their way and see what the situation is, if you agree with them or something like that. Other than that, they wouldn't just come out and tell you that. They'd be in a secret meeting or something like that.	16:08
Paul Ortiz	Do you remember other Black workers that became involved in any [indistinct 00:16:38]?	16:34
George J. Brown	Let me see. No, they didn't. We were interested in something like this thing here, civil rights, something for the benefit of the people. They called it communist but it ain't communist but the civil rights movement [indistinct 00:17:04] done good than it done harm. It worked both ways. They made mistakes. We had [indistinct 00:17:12] patrol ready [indistinct 00:17:13]. He's retired. Whole lot [indistinct 00:17:20] work, made millions of dollars. They forgot about the Black man. You represent me, why you ain't got nothing when you get it if you're going to put me down? Forgot the Black people. I had [indistinct 00:17:34] Chief of Justice of Alabama.	16:38
George J. Brown	[indistinct 00:17:38] little office right there in the [indistinct 00:17:39] building on the 17th floor. When it got up [indistinct 00:17:42], they forgot about the people. We got E. W. Clemens. [indistinct 00:17:49] He's a member of this stuff here along with me. He ain't got time now. Remember the time he needed help. He'd come down. [indistinct 00:18:02] God don't intend for you to do that. If he put you up in the world, you thank him and keep doing it and help other people. That's my motto. I love everybody. I never hate nobody. Never. Never been in a fight. [indistinct 00:18:20]. Raised four children.	17:35
Paul Ortiz	When did you first meet your wife?	18:28
George J. Brown	My wife? We were living in another section of town about seven miles from here. She was going to school [indistinct 00:18:45] Is my coat hung up in [indistinct 00:18:55]? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I see what it is. I had to hold back [indistinct 00:19:00]. Let me see, I might have her picture somewhere. We've been married 52 years. 52 years and I never [indistinct 00:19:16]. I work and make good money. She tended the businesses. [indistinct 00:19:31] I got that one. That's from [indistinct 00:19:34] Served the vice president but I made the pupil. I knew the [indistinct 00:19:44] I told them White people they done a good job. I think I got that picture. We'll look at it.	18:30
George J. Brown	You know where we left off at? We branched off there a little bit.	19:46
Paul Ortiz	Yeah. I asked you how you came to meet your wife.	20:07
George J. Brown	I met her, she was going to school and I stayed single and she's a nice person like that right now. That's her right there. We've been married 52 years.	20:11
Paul Ortiz	52 years.	20:41
George J. Brown	52 years.	20:48
Paul Ortiz	So she was going to school when you first met her?	20:51
George J. Brown	She was going to school, she graduated. She was going to the [indistinct 00:20:58] school, [indistinct 00:21:00] and she graduated and after she graduated, I said, "I'm going to see if I can get that lady." [indistinct 00:21:09] and it was mixed up family.	20:55
Paul Ortiz	A mixed up family?	21:10
George J. Brown	Yeah. Most her people's White. They're mixed in too. But her mother was this Black woman and so that's the problem that you got. People [indistinct 00:21:27] separate and be like, "How the hell you going to separate something that you already—" [indistinct 00:21:38] Black man would say, "Well, I came from [indistinct 00:21:43]. Down where I came from, [indistinct 00:21:49]."	21:14
Paul Ortiz	Mixed race?	21:49
George J. Brown	Yeah. [indistinct 00:21:54] whoop your ass. But this is it, [indistinct 00:22:01]. It's everywhere and I could see something good in her and I married her. Bought a home, bought a place, raised those children. [indistinct 00:22:22] no trouble. I moved out. I tried to get out [indistinct 00:22:27] got so busy, so bad here. When they put the dope and kept ruining the cities, that's a disgrace. You say you wanted freedom, you got your freedom right there. [indistinct 00:22:39] going to kill [indistinct 00:22:40]. You're supposed to love people. You don't do that.	21:54
Paul Ortiz	When you would get off of work at the end of the day, what kinds of things would you do [indistinct 00:22:59]?	22:48
George J. Brown	Me?	22:58
Paul Ortiz	Yeah.	22:59
George J. Brown	I'm going to tell you. When I got off my work, there was a night club and a big dance hall. I was the head waiter at the Cascade Plunge. It's still out there. 68 Street, 1st Avenue North. [indistinct 00:23:22] were picnics, parties, anything they would book. When I got off my job, I was gone.	23:00
Paul Ortiz	Cascade Plunge?	23:28
George J. Brown	Cascade Plunge, that's it. It's on 68th Street, 2nd Avenue, South, Birmingham now. [indistinct 00:23:38] bought that thing. The people died [indistinct 00:23:44]. I was waiting tables. I ran picnic, I ran parties. Stayed busy. When I make that money, I got give it to my wife. Yeah. She took care of me. Educated four children. I got one who won't do nothing. He don't want to be nothing. [indistinct 00:24:10], he's got a master's degree [indistinct 00:24:13] nothing but a [indistinct 00:24:14]. You've got a master's degree and you going to fool out here with a [indistinct 00:24:19] job? You need to be shot in the behind. I didn't have that opportunity. I didn't have it.	23:29
George J. Brown	You'll see a whole lot of that going on now. It costs you something to get what you got. Ain't nobody give you nothing. Go ahead. Sorry I interrupted.	24:27
Paul Ortiz	Did you and your family go to the movies or was there any kind of night life?	24:41
George J. Brown	Well, when you had that—Downtown, we just remolded the Cobb Theater. We had theaters all over Birmingham. Avondale, all sections of Birmingham. You had somewhere to go and there was always something to do. But you ain't got no where to go now. The dope dealers destroyed [indistinct 00:25:16].	24:45
Paul Ortiz	So you'd go to the Avondale Theater?	25:18
George J. Brown	I'd always come downtown and either [indistinct 00:25:23] or we had two, three more. If it didn't, I could go to Avondale. All parts of Birmingham. Now these are the only two. If you went to the White theater, they had them downtown, you'd go upstairs, you couldn't go down there with the Whites but you could go up and see the picture.	25:19
Paul Ortiz	So did you spend a lot of time around the Black business section?	25:47
George J. Brown	I know them but I'd be down at the masonic temple building over there because I was involved with the blue [indistinct 00:26:03], all houses of masonry. I'm Past Master, past [indistinct 00:26:09] used to be. I didn't call myself a [indistinct 00:26:15], I just would love it here, that's all, and I could satisfy the people. I done it for a long, long time. Masonry teaches people to be curtesy, respectable. You [indistinct 00:26:31] and it was always something good in it. I just loved it, lived it, done it. I had a good time with that.	25:53
Paul Ortiz	Did you ever go to places like Bob's [indistinct 00:26:48]?	26:45
George J. Brown	[indistinct 00:26:49]?	26:46
Paul Ortiz	Yeah.	26:50
George J. Brown	Bob Williams used to be [indistinct 00:26:54]. He had a big cafeteria. Bob Williams, that was his name.	26:50
Paul Ortiz	Bob Williams.	26:58
George J. Brown	Yeah.	26:58
Paul Ortiz	Did you ever go there?	26:59
George J. Brown	Oh, I'd go in sometimes because [indistinct 00:27:07] shrines. We'd always go down and patronize the other Shriners.	27:00
Paul Ortiz	Oh, he was Black?	27:12
George J. Brown	Yes, he's Black.	27:13
Paul Ortiz	What other shops would you patronize that were owned by Shriners?	27:15
George J. Brown	We had the Shriners club and in the Shriners club, that's where we raised money for charity or all the organizations [indistinct 00:27:29]. We had our non-profit stamps set up and all like that. We done a whole lot of good things.	27:20
Paul Ortiz	What other businesses—	27:38
George J. Brown	In here, in Birmingham, Black people had a whole lot of grocery stores. They had a whole lot of businesses, small businesses, and downtown we had 18th Street and 4th Avenue, all back in this area. Part of this property here, the Black people were living in here. White people, they moved out and then Blacks moved in. But back in August, when I came to live here, White people lived in all these areas and Birmingham has servants at every house. I was [indistinct 00:28:23] back servants [indistinct 00:28:26] take care of them. They paid rent. [indistinct 00:28:30] bother them people.	27:42
George J. Brown	We had [indistinct 00:28:34]. The type they had [indistinct 00:28:39] surrounding area, this town was covered with electric cars operating by batteries. [indistinct 00:28:53]. Tip your hat. YOu'd have chauffer. I used to be a chauffer [indistinct 00:29:01] downtown, get a job chauffer [indistinct 00:29:06]. I think they may have paid 50 cents [indistinct 00:29:09]. White folks [indistinct 00:29:13] you'll wait on them. [indistinct 00:29:17] but they're paying you. Them Jews, I used to love them Jews. He ain't going to give you too much money but [indistinct 00:29:30] pretty good people.	28:30
George J. Brown	You needed [indistinct 00:29:34]. If you paid him, he'd be—All these buildings, empty buildings down here. Jews own these buildings now.	29:32
Paul Ortiz	You raised four children here. Did any of those children go to Industrial High School?	29:42
George J. Brown	No, they went to Parker High School. I was living right near Parker High School. Three of them graduated Parker High School. Parker High School I believe the Tennessee State and my daughter went to [indistinct 00:30:08] then my baby daughter, she went two years to—Where did she go? I forgot right now. Anyways, she took two years of college, then she married but they all had an opportunity. If they want to [indistinct 00:30:42]. I didn't have that opportunity to get an education. I had to work but I wanted them to make something out their lives. They can do it. You trust God and do what's right, you'll get what you want.	29:50
Paul Ortiz	You talked earlier about accidents that were happening at [indistinct 00:31:03]. What would happen when people would get injured? Do you remember the kinds of medical care that were [crosstalk 00:31:13]?	30:56
George J. Brown	If he got hurt at [indistinct 00:31:16], we had ambulances [indistinct 00:31:21]. You get hurt, they'd load you up in truck and carry you to the hospital.	31:13
Paul Ortiz	Which hospital?	31:30
George J. Brown	We had [indistinct 00:31:30]. That's the Saint Vincent Hospital. When you go there, the Black man, we had to go in the basement. You couldn't go in the other part of the hospital. That's where we were and that's where we went. It was in the basement. And you ride street cars. You got two people, a conductor and a motorman. Street car open the middle. You go to your left, the right go to your right but you couldn't move the boards up if it wasn't but one White only. [indistinct 00:32:18] Guess we got where we wanted to go.	31:32
Paul Ortiz	Anybody that you knew back in those days, did you know if Black workers or Black people who were challenged kind of push back against that system?	32:26
George J. Brown	Oh yeah. There was plenty. They didn't care for that system. Oh yeah, we fought it but they were fighting a losing battle.	32:40
Paul Ortiz	Like in the 30s?	32:54
George J. Brown	Yeah.	32:55
Paul Ortiz	What would people do?	32:56
George J. Brown	Whole lot of time, we had a probleM down here by the water fountain right here. You couldn't drink out that water fountain. You couldn't do that. You get on the elevator, you had to take off your hat or they'd knock it off. You couldn't do nothing about it. You can't [indistinct 00:33:20] out in the street and beat your brains out. [indistinct 00:33:23]. But that was the law of the land, what they called the law of the land. That's what they done.	33:00
Paul Ortiz	How would Black people fight against that?	33:34
George J. Brown	[indistinct 00:33:37]?	33:35
Paul Ortiz	You mentioned earlier that there were some Black people who would fight that.	33:39
George J. Brown	What we'd done was a whole lot of demonstrating. We got organized through churches and organizations and we would fill this town going up there. So many of us, you couldn't do nothing. And [indistinct 00:34:02] it was Bull Connor. [indistinct 00:34:04] wasn't even there. [indistinct 00:34:08] and he got shamed. The water hose. The police went and stomped on him. You ever had that? The policeman and the fire department. If you want to put some more water on him, them folks said [indistinct 00:34:25]. The White people got sick of it. [indistinct 00:34:29] you'll just take over and see it. We were always told to be non-violent but [indistinct 00:34:43] be some violence if you don't watch. [indistinct 00:34:49].	33:44
Paul Ortiz	You felt like non-violence sometimes was—	34:52
George J. Brown	[indistinct 00:34:58]. I never liked [indistinct 00:34:59] but let me tell you here. Here in the 60s, every school got out at nine o'clock all over Jefferson County. Every one of them came right down town. You couldn't see nothing but Black folks. All the department stores. Everywhere. [indistinct 00:35:37]. They were just in them stores going and coming. [indistinct 00:35:39] but we wanted help. They were bombed just like [indistinct 00:35:46] church. They turned that man loose. That was bad business. Then they bombed up on Smithfield, up there [indistinct 00:35:56] up there. [indistinct 00:35:59] bombing up there and messed up a whole lot of people.	34:57
Paul Ortiz	Is that dynamite [indistinct 00:36:07]?	36:01
George J. Brown	Dynamite. Yeah, that's what he called dynamite. Yeah, that's it. That's the name of it.	36:11
Paul Ortiz	Can you tell me a little bit about that area?	36:12
George J. Brown	Yeah. The White people were living in one or two houses up there by some politician [indistinct 00:36:23] some land [indistinct 00:36:26] had some property up there. [Lawrence Umphrey 00:36:30] [indistinct 00:36:32]. Black man. He let him have the money to pay down on a house when they was fighting [indistinct 00:36:39]. They found out [indistinct 00:36:41] was unnecessary and [indistinct 00:36:42] and the White people got behind me themselves. They said, "Well, you can do two [indistinct 00:36:52]." And so they took it up and [indistinct 00:36:56] along before they settle the hill and everybody got [indistinct 00:37:00] you want to build up on the hill, I'll build up there.	36:12
Paul Ortiz	And that's the area that's now [indistinct 00:37:05]?	37:03
George J. Brown	No, Smithfield.	37:05
Paul Ortiz	Smithfield.	37:07
George J. Brown	Smithfield, that's it.	37:07
Paul Ortiz	Smithfield. When did those homes start getting bombed?	37:16
George J. Brown	It was in the '49s and '50s. I can't give you the correct date. I can't pick it up but you find it in [indistinct 00:37:33] a continuous thing. Then rebuilt it, we had to. Got organized on the hill. I'd work sometimes all day, stay up all night watching the family. We patrol the community and the streets. Had so many of them assigned everywhere.	37:18
Paul Ortiz	So you were living up there?	37:57
George J. Brown	Oh yeah. Yeah. Over there, back then. Built up there. Bought a lot and built a place up there but it was better than what I had and Arthur Shores, I know you remember talking about him. He's, "I bought the lot. I bought the lot." Think I paid him $1500 for that lot and built that house. And it's a funny thing. I'd have been in that house right today but my kids are very superstitious. My wife had two aunts that died in that house and them children wouldn't live in that house. [indistinct 00:38:36] until you get your own house that way you won't be running me around here trying to buy a house. We laugh about that thing right now. But I've been lucky in Birmingham. I've [indistinct 00:38:56] to a certain extent. The Black man got a whole lot of support [indistinct 00:39:03] admitted and told him.	37:57
George J. Brown	You didn't get much help [indistinct 00:39:10] Italian but the Jews put money down. Whole lot of these business people would help these people. If you wanted help and the person willing to help you, they can help you, you get him to do it. That's my [indistinct 00:39:29] and it's not to say that some of these White people didn't hate us. Whole lot of these women was against being abused, doing wrong but just stayed in their race of people. These White women stayed. They were better than men. We ain't going to tell that though. Yeah, you know that. That's [indistinct 00:39:56].	39:08
George J. Brown	Yes sir. Now where we left off on that while ago?	39:59
Paul Ortiz	Oh, I asked you about Dynamite Hill [indistinct 00:40:09] Smithfield which was Dynamite Hill.	40:06
George J. Brown	Dynamite Hill is right. Center Street Hill.	40:10
Paul Ortiz	[indistinct 00:40:11] and you built a house up there?	40:10
George J. Brown	Yeah, I built on First Street North. 1148 First Street North. The house is there right now.	40:10
Paul Ortiz	And that was also part of the area that was [indistinct 00:40:35].	40:32
George J. Brown	The bombing area.	40:32
Paul Ortiz	[indistinct 00:40:36].	40:32
George J. Brown	Fella cursed me out one night. I had a pretty long little old [indistinct 00:40:44]. I had a garage door. You raise the door up, go and put your car in the garage and then go up the steps, going up [indistinct 00:40:54] going into the house. This fella came down and said, "Boy, you got your damn [indistinct 00:41:01] knock on the door, you got your damn car in the street over the ditch in there about 40 feet deep." He says, "Boy, get your car." I say, "Okay." I say, "Buddy, I'm sorry. I didn't meant to block you." [indistinct 00:41:20]. I went in there and got my damn rifle. Had a lady there by the door. He cranked that car floor board right over in that ditch. He got it. He talking, "I might go back up there [indistinct 00:41:37] get the hell beat out of you."	40:38
Paul Ortiz	So you got your rifle?	41:42
George J. Brown	Yeah. You put your rifle—I ain't know what he was going to do but all of us scared to be on that hill [indistinct 00:41:51].	41:44
Paul Ortiz	Really?	41:44
George J. Brown	Yeah, [indistinct 00:41:52].	41:44
Paul Ortiz	For basically self-defense?	41:53
George J. Brown	Yeah. The police department was always on the Black man. He would ride you and [indistinct 00:42:06] Bull Connor, the city commissioner [indistinct 00:42:11]. They were on Black people too [indistinct 00:42:14]. We came through all that stuff. Ignored them to a certain extent and took a whole lot. We got job the job done [indistinct 00:42:29]. We did a pretty good job too. As long as they ain't hurting me now is what's happening now. It's a heart-breaker. [indistinct 00:42:37] used to gain the whole world and lose your soul. That's what happened. Look at the Black people. What they doing for us? You don't like that. Nobody got any sense. You see babies having babies. Syphilis, gonorrhea, diseased to death.	41:55
George J. Brown	Dopes doing it. Just haul it in here with submarines, trailer trucks, in airplanes. [indistinct 00:43:06] down for the money. Someone will wake up and do something, they're going to be to late. They diseased to death. It's pitiful. I used to stay in my housing, didn't lock a door. Didn't worry about locking no doors. [indistinct 00:43:26] didn't break in your house. Boys didn't rape no women. You think about your family, you don't know what happened to them and as long as stuff coming out of Brazil and Peru, them folks making money over yonder. America ain't going to have no money [indistinct 00:43:48] if they keep on. [indistinct 00:43:48] all out. Look at this racket they got down there in Mexico.	42:57
George J. Brown	[indistinct 00:43:57] place in no-man land. They come in and settle down. [indistinct 00:44:04] load it up and haul it on. It's something to think about. You leave home, you don't know when you're going to get back. You ain't [indistinct 00:44:16] I won't give you no more of that. What is it we talking about?	43:53
Paul Ortiz	We were talking about Dynamite Hill. I wanted to ask you one more question, I don't want to take up too much of your time.	44:24
George J. Brown	Well, I don't mind it. Get what you want now.	44:35
Paul Ortiz	And I have some paperwork that I would like to work with you to fill out [indistinct 00:44:44] the file. One more question that I have regarding your work at the spas, did you see changes in Sloss over time from the beginning to the end [indistinct 00:44:57] and were you there when it shut down?	44:39
George J. Brown	[indistinct 00:45:00]. I was there when it shut down. '71 I believe [indistinct 00:45:05] shut down in 1971. I wanted to see their furnaces. I had moved to the number five, North Birmingham where the big blast furnaces was. You could sit that little furnace over here in that blast furnace [indistinct 00:45:21]. This was a part-time. This furnace [indistinct 00:45:29] here and they was having all this pollution problem any way. So I just went on to the blast furnace where they was making good money. Made big money over there. [indistinct 00:45:45] over time. I'd do 16 hours and I'd have 8 hours of rest but you had to know how to do it. You know what to do. My [indistinct 00:45:59] out the way. "I know what to do."	45:01
George J. Brown	Something need to be done, I didn't wait on him. He'd be somewhere sleep. As long as the job was going on, [indistinct 00:46:09]. White man [indistinct 00:46:09] I'd go home and get some sleep. He'd go home and go to sleep. I'd sit right there, run that engine, whatever he had to do and they never said about it. When you got organized, you get help.	46:02
Paul Ortiz	When you get organized—	46:09
George J. Brown	Yeah. When you get organized on a job like, [indistinct 00:46:36] 8-hour job done [indistinct 00:46:38]. You didn't see [indistinct 00:46:41] unless he wanted something extra to do and we knew what to do and we got our work caught up. We had a [indistinct 00:46:50]. We go sit down at the [indistinct 00:46:53]. Just sit there. [indistinct 00:46:58]. That's the [indistinct 00:46:59] we had to operate. Now, we ain't even finish that last question, did we?	46:11
Paul Ortiz	Which—	47:04

Item Info

Title:

George Brown interview recording, 1994 June 23

Date:

June 23, 1994

Creator:

Brown, George L.

Contributor:

Ortiz, Paul

Description:

Name: George Brown; Date of birth: 1909-02-11; Place of birth: Dallas County, AL; Occupation(s): manufacturer; steel worker; Residence: Birmingham, AL
Informant ID: 734; Interviewed by: Paul Ortiz.

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Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

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Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-1999

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The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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CC BY-NC 4.0

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Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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Interview number: 155
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behindtheveil
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7824d3a6-e11c-4836-9025-9651039f90e9

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George Brown interview recording, 1994 June 23

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1. George Brown administrative file, 1994

2. George Brown administrative file, 1994

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George Brown interview recording, 1994 June 23

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