Julia Taylor interview recording, 1995 August 08

Download
- Rights
- Limited Re-Use
  CC BY-NC 4.0
  More Rights Info
- Files (2)
- MP3 Part 1
- MP3 Part 2
- Please be patient with media downloads. They are often large files.
Document
- btvct04039.pdf
Share

Embed Code
<iframe src='//idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r42r3tc27?embed=true' height='125px' width='100%' frameborder='0' marginwidth='0' marginheight='0' scrolling='no' allowfullscreen></iframe>
Permalink

https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r42r3tc27
Skip to Item Info

Loading the media player...

Files for this Item

Transcript

Transcripts may contain inaccuracies.

Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, can you tell me when you were born and something about the community that you grew up in?	0:02
Julia Taylor	I was born in Uniontown, Alabama. My parents moved here before I was two years old. They came really, for a sick relative who was here, and they never went back to Alabama. As you see, I do not know too much about Alabama. I was born there but that's all. But now, my childhood was here, right here in Indianola. My first day in school was right up the street, up there on Church Street, it was called then.	0:11
Julia Taylor	And at that time, you went to school when you were five years old, and most time, you stayed in the primer about three years because you were in the pre-primer then the big primer so actually it took you about three years to complete first grade, which should have been done in one year. That accounts for a lot of children not getting—They stayed too long in one class. I happened to be blessed in the fact that we took the teacher and I was kind of blessed enough to get a little advanced.	1:02
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, what was the primer?	1:56
Julia Taylor	Pre-primer, big primer, which made you stay in first grade three years. Because even though it was just a pre-primer, whatever you went to school in, if you was in first grade pre-primer, well, that pre-primer didn't have it about six, eight pages. But you stayed in that all that year, then next year you was in the big primer.	2:04
Paul Ortiz	Oh, okay. That was something you read?	2:29
Julia Taylor	No, that was your book. You went to school and that was the book you had, was called a pre-primer.	2:32
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, what was in that pre-primer?	2:42
Julia Taylor	Well, for instance, the first thing that pre-primer was Mama loves papa. The next page he says, "Papa loves mama." And the next page he says, "Mama loves baby. Baby loves—" That's the type thing that was in that pre-primer. And along with that, you had your ABCs and your counting. All of that was a part of that. You did that this whole year. However, schools didn't go on but about four months at that time, so you stayed that year in that pre-primer. When you went to school the next year, you were in another book, in the big primer.	2:47
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, you were five when you started?	3:37
Julia Taylor	Five.	3:40
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, can you tell me about the Black community that you grew up in here in Indianola and where you were living at?	3:45
Julia Taylor	Well, I was living right across over there where that house is. That's called Ria Roosevelt. That's the name that was given it, just because the streets were not numbered at that time.	3:53
Paul Ortiz	Was that primarily a Black neighborhood?	4:12
Julia Taylor	I lived in a Black neighborhood.	4:15
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, can you describe that neighborhood for me, who your neighbors were and—	4:21
Julia Taylor	Yeah, our neighbors were there, all gone now. But they were the Greens and the Starks, Browns, all of us lived right there together.	4:26
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, what kinds of occupations did people do in the neighborhood?	4:46
Julia Taylor	Farm and very few of them not owning farm, but they were sharecroppers. That was the chief means of support, share cropping. Because you were being taken care of then by the landlord when you were share cropping. And of course, you got a settlement at the end of the year. Other than that, that was all you did. Now, if you had a large enough crop and got through before somebody else did, you could go out and make your little livelihood like that, picking cotton for somebody.	4:54
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, when you were growing up, were there Black businesses in Indianola?	5:50
Julia Taylor	Yes, in spots and places, just like I told you right up from my house. Right across over there, there was a store owned by Colored people.	5:56
Paul Ortiz	What was that store called?	6:12
Julia Taylor	McCrane's Grocery, M-C-C-R-A-N-E-S.	6:14
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, what kind of role did McCrane's play in the Black community?	6:24
Julia Taylor	Well, they were what was termed at that time, big shots. They had a car at home.	6:33
Paul Ortiz	Did your family shop there when you were—	6:44
Julia Taylor	Yeah, because they were right up the street from me, all up there. And at that time, that was the one among the two or three telephones that was in the neighborhood. I think we had about three among Colored people. They had one other and right up the street from there, there was a Colored hospital. Now, not the type of hospital that they have today, but there was a hospital there. The house is still there and it's been used as a dwelling house. It has been remodeled of course, but it was a hospital where we went with Colored.	6:46
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, did your family go there to the hospital?	7:50
Julia Taylor	Well, they didn't have an occasion to, I don't know of any of my relatives who had an occasion to be members of it or to go to it, but it was right across from me.	7:54
Paul Ortiz	Did it have Black doctors?	8:11
Julia Taylor	Yeah, but they did not have quite—I mean they didn't mingle, but they had good doctors.	8:12
Paul Ortiz	Mr. Taylor, did your family know any of the doctors that worked there?	8:27
Julia Taylor	Yeah, knew the owner, Dr. Delaney. And one of the men of his staff was Dr. Jones. They lived right up the street from the hospital, they did in the community.	8:30
Paul Ortiz	It sounds like, Mrs. Taylor, during the 1910s and '20s, that Indianola had some important Black institutions, the grocery store, the Black hospital. Were there other institutions in the Black community that were important?	8:53
Julia Taylor	Let me see. Of course, you know about the church that was our main means. I'm trying to think of another. Yes, this place, this store that's right up there where the lady, her husband owned it. She just died about two years ago. She was 100 when she died, they were the Walkers. But I was thinking of another business. He was a pharmacist, he was a Black pharmacist, Arthur Walker. He had a buffet and it was uptown, on the main street uptown. That was the only business. Now we had, there was several places where we went, I guess you'd call it for entertainment, stores. We had our own cafes, however, people didn't attend them too much because for work, all they stayed in the fields. Saturdays was the time when you went to the stores.	9:14
Paul Ortiz	How about your family, Mrs. Taylor? What was the day that you went?	10:58
Julia Taylor	Anytime we got ready, as I said, we just happened, and I wasn't the only one, but I was one among those who were a little better.	11:03
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, what would've been the occupations of people who were a little better off in the Black community?	11:19
Julia Taylor	Well, people who were a little bit off, for instance, I didn't ever do it, but this place that I was staying around the street there, this lady, we didn't call it Headstart or nothing like that, but she took care of [indistinct 00:11:49] because I went to school. My mom and them were in the fields and it was more means of something like a daycare. I went there because my mother and them went to the field. And of course, such pay as it was, they paid her. I wasn't the only child, there were several others of us.	11:26
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, what that establishment called?	12:17
Julia Taylor	Well, now they called daycare, but not back there. We just went to school. We didn't call it preschool, but that's what it was, because if you weren't old enough, couldn't go to school until you were five years old. And if you were not old enough to go to school, well, if your parents could, they sent you down there to her house. And it wasn't so much a matter of—Actually, I think what it mostly was was just to keep my mother not having any more children and she went to the field. My father was a Baptist minister and he didn't go to the field, so rather than be at home, I was one of the ones that went around after that little house. Because when we just played out in the yard.	12:22
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, your father was a minister. What was his church?	13:32
Julia Taylor	You mean denominational-wise? Baptist.	13:40
Paul Ortiz	Baptist. And did he have his own congregation?	13:44
Julia Taylor	Yes.	13:48
Paul Ortiz	Which was that, which church?	13:49
Julia Taylor	This was at what was called, it was at a place at that time called Flora, right out from Jackson.	13:51
Paul Ortiz	Florida?	14:05
Julia Taylor	Jackson.	14:07
Paul Ortiz	Oh, okay. And what was the name of the church?	14:08
Julia Taylor	The name of the church was Mount Zion. Mount Zion.	14:15
Paul Ortiz	So he would travel?	14:24
Julia Taylor	Yeah, trains were running at that time. Catch a train or the bus. But trains were more frequent, buses wasn't too frequent.	14:26
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, could you tell me about, were there social events that your family participated in?	14:45
Julia Taylor	Yeah. Well, I guess there has always been classes of people. If you in the family where I was with, you just didn't go out on Saturday night, you didn't socialize. The church was your main method of socialization. However, if you did go, you had had a birthday party, but it wasn't anything like a club, nightclub or something. If I had a birthday, my mother gave me a birthday party and invited all of my equal, all of the people. And as I said, you were kind of classed, you stayed within your group.	14:54
Paul Ortiz	What were your favorite occasions, Mrs. Taylor?	16:00
Julia Taylor	Well, I guess on the 4th of July, we always had a picnic.	16:05
Paul Ortiz	Would you go to a park?	16:20
Julia Taylor	Well, yes and no. Very seldom, but we went fishing. You didn't work that day, you went fishing and ate watermelon. That was your main, carried you some sandwiches. That was the main. We didn't have a park as such, just some place. Most times in the rural, it was on the White man's plantation. That was the park we went when it was 4th of July.	16:23
Paul Ortiz	Would your family go out there?	16:55
Julia Taylor	No, we didn't. Times were kind of different. People didn't go so much, but I don't know. You didn't mix too much or something. I don't know why I'm trying to say it, but we went to a picnic, maybe just say my cousin lived out here on Mr. Jones' Plantation. And they had, Mr. Jones, has furnished the cow, hog and they going to barbecue it. And well, they would invite us and we'd go out there, wherever this picnic was held. And of course, sometimes the boss man would furnish a cow or something and make barbecue and they'd have a big time. They laid crops and called it laying crops by, they laid the crops by.	17:04
Julia Taylor	Everybody tried to be through with his crop by time for the folks to lay by it. And well, lay by meant that they was through chopping. That's before picking cotton time when you have chopping, got your crop all ready so it can grow. Well then, maybe we came over to your place and helped you chop. And then when 4th of July came, that was the day of celebration and everybody met and had this watermelon and barbecue. That's the only kind of park we had. Now, they had parks for White people, but we didn't have any parks, we just made our park.	18:06
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, you moved from Alabama when you were two. Did your grandparents come with you?	19:05
Julia Taylor	No, my mother and father came. They came because of a sickness and at that time, the hills was considered poor land. You don't know anything about that. They came, but my mother's sister had an operation and she came, they didn't have the facilities and the things that they have now. But she came, actually, to help this sister. And once they were here, they found they stayed. They stayed here because land was so much richer and everything, you could raise more and all like that. The fertility of the soil was different, because I'm born in the hills and land is poor in the hills. Don't make too much headway.	19:20
Paul Ortiz	Okay, so it was a hill county and the soil wasn't that good?	20:33
Julia Taylor	Not for farming.	20:38
Paul Ortiz	And so that helped your parents make the decision to stay here.	20:40
Julia Taylor	Yes.	20:43
Paul Ortiz	Oh, okay. Did your parents—	20:46
Julia Taylor	Actually, they stayed the first time. See, they came during the work season, picking cotton season. They came to help this sister.	20:47
Paul Ortiz	Pick cotton?	20:58
Julia Taylor	Yes.	21:00
Paul Ortiz	She was a sharecropper?	21:00
Julia Taylor	Yes.	21:02
Paul Ortiz	Oh, so they came to help out.	21:03
Julia Taylor	Yes.	21:04
Paul Ortiz	Okay. And did your mother and father both pick cotton with her?	21:07
Julia Taylor	Yeah, they came and helped her finish that crop that they had started. And of course, they had settled or decided to stay, however it was, by the time it was ready for the next crop.	21:11
Paul Ortiz	Mr. Taylor, did your parents or grandparents own land around union town?	21:31
Julia Taylor	No, as far as I know, they had a—But my grandparents now, they didn't own it. But they had a little hut, little house there.	21:38
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, did any of the experiences and stories of your grandparents' generation pass down to you? Did you hear much about them?	21:56
Julia Taylor	Well, I have heard them tell how they were treated. I don't necessarily know if it was my parents or grandparents, or how far. I know not too much about that because I was less than two years old when I left there. And I never had an occasion to go back, so all I know of this, it came from here because I've been here all my life.	22:09
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, did your parents, did your father, mother ever talk about your grandparents?	22:45
Julia Taylor	Yes, and I know when they first came, as I said, they came to relatives in the hills. And I don't know much about it, but I can remember they had water. I guess you heard. No, you're not from his country. But the water came from a spring, you've heard of spring water? Well, that's where they got it. And I really wasn't too familiar with that because they came here and settled here. And of course, when they got here they had pumps.	22:50
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, when you were growing up, earlier you talked about some of the social events that your family would take part in. Did your family also travel when you were growing up, to other towns in Mississippi?	23:51
Julia Taylor	No, we didn't travel too much, now. The only traveling I did when I got to be little, I guess maybe seven, eight years old or something like that, by this time my father in that day, he didn't know about it, but a minister pastored three or four churches. And on occasion, the only place I ever went, had an occasion to go, was every once in a while my father would take us to his church when he's going, like he was going to church.	24:17
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, how did your parents deal with race relations, with segregation?	25:06
Julia Taylor	It was just, I don't know. We never had had any clashes, any kind. As I said, this may sound a little funny, but back in those days, back in the '20s, it's not so nice to say, but you knew your place. I knew to say yes sir and no sir to a White person. I knew if we were coming this direction, automatically, whatever direction I was coming from, the White person had the right of way, just naturally. That was just the times in which we did. It wasn't anything big or anything to me. We never clashed because if you were intelligent enough to know what was called your place, you didn't clash because you knew how the times were and no need to start an argument or something.	25:26
Julia Taylor	If I'm going this way and the White man or the White woman is coming that way. And if it's a White lady, I know if it's a Colored man out there and the White lady passed, he knew to tip his hat and do this. That was just the times, you just did. And if you did it, you didn't have any trouble. Now, there's always somebody who will—I've known of cases he said, "John, I want you to plow that row over there this morning." "Well, my wife said she was kind of sick and she's going to go up to see the doctor." "Well, you take her up to see the doctor and you go there and plow that, and you take her up to see the doctor."	26:42
Julia Taylor	Now, it wasn't a while, you'd run up on one who going to say, "No, I ain't going to plow nothing. I'm going to take my wife to the doctor now." You run up a situation. "Well now, if you going plow that land by 2:00, I'm not going to plow anything. That's all there is to it." Now, if you looking for a fight, I don't mean he said that, but that was just the way it was. "You get off my place, take your place." On the other hand, there are instances where you say, "My wife is sick and I'm going to take her to the doctor."	27:47
Julia Taylor	He'd say, "You take her and then you come back and plow this or you plow that." Now, that was according to your situation, because when you told him you wasn't going to go nowhere, if you didn't have nowhere to go, no kin folks to stay somewhere, well, you went on out there and finished that crop or plowed that or whatever the case might be. But every once in a while you'd run up on one who say, "I'm not going to do that." "Well, you get off my place." So, "Heck with your place."	28:30
Paul Ortiz	Those kinds of things happened?	29:13
Julia Taylor	Yeah. And sometimes it ended in a fight. Everybody wasn't scared now, that just happened. Everybody wasn't scared. Some folks just like that. "Well, you get off my place." "Heck away with your place." Whatever you looking for, you can get it. The instances happen. The White man was automatically going win because I ain't got nothing to fight with. But whatever I could find, I used that.	29:15
Paul Ortiz	What kinds of things could a Black person find?	29:50
Julia Taylor	I don't know how they got them, but you could always, all them guns they had, honey, they had them. When you came from the Army, you brought them muskets with or whatever you call them. And then there has always been people who could find a way to make one. And there has always been people who care less than a snap of my finger about your skin being White and about you saying what you ain't going to do. You going to try it. Colored people, there have always been Colored people who, you hurt them, Colored people who would stand up and shoot the top of your head off and care nothing about it. Shoot the top of your head off and take that highway and go as far as he could go. That has happened.	29:55
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, was there instances like that that would happen in the town in Indianola when you were—	30:58
Julia Taylor	No, I never did have an instance that I know of. I know of several uprising where somebody didn't agree, but usually the main thing was they put you off their place. Because you was on somebody else's place, whether you share cropping or whether you were working by the day or whatever, you were on somebody else's place. And most times, especially if it's a White person that kind of had a little forethought, he'd tell you to do this and you don't do that, you'd just get off his place. You'd be gone tomorrow.	31:05
Paul Ortiz	Mr. Taylor, is there a sense that that was more common among lower class Black people?	31:54
Julia Taylor	Yes.	32:04
Paul Ortiz	That kind of resistance?	32:05
Julia Taylor	Yes.	32:12
Paul Ortiz	And there were actually, you mentioned, uprisings?	32:12
Julia Taylor	Well, yes, that's what they called them when you didn't do what you were told to do or something of that nature. Some people would just leave. And as I said, most times if there was a big family, they could just about get what they wanted.	32:15
Paul Ortiz	Do what they wanted in terms of?	32:44
Julia Taylor	In terms of needing their help. The White, just [indistinct 00:32:57] person, you got a big crop, you got 100 acres of land here and it's cotton picking time. And this White man got 100 acres of land out there, well now, especially when the rain sit in, he doesn't want to let that crop spoil, he doesn't want that rain setting in there. So when you talking about moving, it's a different situation. You can almost demand something because your service is needed.	32:49
Paul Ortiz	I see. That would give you a little more leverage?	33:40
Julia Taylor	Yes.	33:44
Paul Ortiz	I see. Mrs. Taylor, you were saying that your family, your parents, you knew ways to avoid those kinds of clashes. And when you were a young girl, how did your parents teach you how to avoid those clashes? Would they talked to you about, sometimes this is what you do when you walk downtown?	33:55
Julia Taylor	No, I have never been just taught that, but you lived in that environment and nobody had to tell me. I don't think anybody ever told me, "You say yes and no ma'am." I don't think anybody, that's just the times, that's just the way it is. If he's White, I don't know whether Mr. John or Mr. Pete and Mr. Tone. That was just the way it was, you knew that.	34:26
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, were there signs in Indianola?	35:12
Julia Taylor	Yeah, yeah, they were signs. And just like you say, for instance, you are going to take a bus to Memphis. If you're going to take a bus to Memphis, when you go to the bus station, you see the sign there. Nobody had to tell you to go to the sign where it said Black or White if you could go. But now, I have heard of instances where they have been asked to move, especially if you're riding on bus and bus is crowded and White, nothing on that. The Whites sit up here and the Negros set here. Now, if all these seats are taken, you just stand up. You don't sit in those seats, you just stand up to wherever you are going. That was just the time, that's just what you did.	35:17
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, oh, I know another question I was going to ask. I was interested in the Cox family here. I know they were a prominent Black family. Within the Black community, did people still talk about what had happened at the post office when you were growing up?	36:29
Julia Taylor	No, because she was this way. I just knew Ms. Cox because when I was growing up, it was known that was something great. She was the first postmistress here, and so we accepted it. And when I grew up, she was there. I don't know, as I said, it wasn't too much of a clash with the better thinking class of people, you more or less accepted things as they were.	36:51
Paul Ortiz	And Mrs. Cox and her family would definitely be a better class?	37:39
Julia Taylor	That's right.	37:45
Paul Ortiz	Did people talk about that, Mrs. Taylor? I know that happened, that was a little before your time that happened, around 1901, 1902. When you would have social events or every once in a while, was there still kind of a folklore around that event when she was the post mistress and the Whites—	37:50
Julia Taylor	All of that, I heard. I was not a part right of it. I knew her family, the younger part of it, but I really don't know how their social life went because I was not a part of that. I don't know.	38:13
Paul Ortiz	What would you hear about it, about that event?	38:33
Julia Taylor	Oh, we always just considered that it made us important. It was an honor that the first post mistress was a Black woman. And of course, that was just something great. And her family, you just could always point to her family with pride and her children.	38:37
Paul Ortiz	That was a source of pride, but how about the negative outcome where she was—	39:04
Julia Taylor	Well, I don't know about that, but I have sense enough to know that it was not well accepted. Because if it had been, she would not eventually have had to move from the White side of town, over to the Colored.	39:24
Paul Ortiz	Oh, so she moved to the Colored side of town?	39:50
Julia Taylor	Yes.	39:53
Paul Ortiz	Oh, okay. And she'd been living in the White side.	39:54
Julia Taylor	Yes.	40:00
Paul Ortiz	Oh, okay. And I guess I was interested too, Mrs. Taylor, how did the Black community take that? Was there still a kind of chagrin?	40:00
Julia Taylor	Yeah, it's always been there, just from hearing. And then you can feel tension in the air, that it's not as it would've been if she had been White or if she had been [indistinct 00:40:23]	40:09
Paul Ortiz	In the Black community, there was definitely a sense that what happened to her was kind of a snub on all Black people?	40:23
Julia Taylor	That's right, that's just the way it went.	40:34
Paul Ortiz	I had read just a little bit about that case, but I'd forgotten about it. But when I got into Indianola, I saw the post office, it jogged my memory.	40:41
Julia Taylor	I know.	40:51
Paul Ortiz	And I thought, "Well, it must have been something that Black people talked about years later."	40:55
Julia Taylor	Oh yeah. And then too, it was in the history books, you could read about it.	41:00
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, with the Cox family, you mentioned that your family was part of the better class. The Coxes, would their family be considered even at a higher-	41:27
Julia Taylor	That's right, a higher bracket, sure.	41:39
Paul Ortiz	Were there other Black families who were in that higher bracket with the Coxes, or were they kind of in a class by themselves?	41:41
Julia Taylor	They were kind of in a class by themselves. There were others, maybe a little nice. But this incident, this just made the Coxes. This is just something that doesn't happen every day. Even the Whites don't appreciate this. They were just a step above the rest. And rightfully so, her position put her there.	41:52
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, when you were growing up, who was responsible for discipline in the family?	42:33
Julia Taylor	My father.	42:43
Paul Ortiz	Your father.	42:47
Julia Taylor	My father always had the last wood when it come to discipline. Yep.	42:48
Paul Ortiz	So you knew as a child that when things came to a head, that he was the person who was—	43:02
Julia Taylor	Yeah, he had the last word.	43:09
Paul Ortiz	Was that also how the family decisions were made about budgeting?	43:13
Julia Taylor	Well, the part that I was able to know about, they kind of went together on things, but if something was going on, if you were told—If it was a party, just say it's a party, the girl's having a birthday party. If there's a party, I'm going to ask mama, "Can I go to the party?" Mama is going to say, "See what your daddy says." Now, if my daddy said, "Well, I'll talk to Alice," he's still going to see what my mother said. Whatever the two of them decides, that's for might I go to the party, what conditions I go. It may be that I can't go to the party unless Ms. Sally takes me. But whatever the condition and however the final word, my father has it.	43:19
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, you were telling me you went to school, your primary grades over here at a school. What was the school called?	44:37
Julia Taylor	Oh, at that time it was just the Indianola Public school.	44:48
Paul Ortiz	Public school. Was that in a church?	44:53
Julia Taylor	It was in a church, yeah. The church was just called Brook Phillips Church. They just tore it down this year. They didn't tear it down, it was right up the street there, but they moved it over on the other street. It was facing this street, facing Church Street. And they moved it right back on the next street, facing the extension drive, facing that street right there. It's still right up the street there.	45:04
Paul Ortiz	How many children approximately, attended?	45:33
Julia Taylor	Oh, I imagine, just imagine about 30 or 40, or maybe more. She had another lady, two of them, the other lady was her assistant teacher. And when I went to school there, it was in the church right up the street there. And then they finally built a school around on another street, over on Hannah Street. In meantime, there was another school that started, a denominational school that was run by the Baptist church in the city, Colored church.	45:36
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor—	46:35

Paul Ortiz	How would you characterize the differences between your parents' education and your educational opportunities growing up? What were some of the main—	0:03
Julia Taylor	Oh, I really don't know the—I know not only them, but they didn't have the advantages. Now, mine probably were not perfect, but they were far above theirs. I think my mother went to the fifth grade and she married, and of course that was the end of that. My father, I don't know, it was just kind of a custom, I don't ever recall hearing him say how far he went, but it was just a custom that the man went to work in the farm. Farming was the chief. So when the man got large enough, he usually had to go to the fields and went to school when he could. The days when it rained or something like that.	0:20
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, what are your fondest or happiest memories of growing up in Indianola?	1:46
Julia Taylor	Well, really the church because that was the center of our entertainment. To us at that time, the church was something sacred, I'd call it. That was your only form, I guess, of recreation, really. You looked forward to going to church just like some others looked forward to going to Club Ebony or some club. You went to church. I went to Sunday school, I went to church, had BTU, that's a Bible study class, things of that nature.	1:54
Paul Ortiz	It was the day that you could kind of dress up and socialize. What other kinds of events did the church's sponsor in the Black community?	2:47
Julia Taylor	Oh, they had what we called programs for all the events in the year, just like your calendar, Thanksgiving, Easter, Christmas. All of those were our outlets. You had a big program, that's where you let your hair down.	3:01
Paul Ortiz	So it was recreational event?	3:29
Julia Taylor	Yes.	3:33
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor. What were the main Black congregations in this area? Now this area you said was called Rear Roosevelt. What were the main congregations in churches?	3:33
Julia Taylor	Well, mostly Baptist churches, wherever they were, held a precedent. Now there may be some, for instance, Presbyterian something, Catholic or something, but they were far in between and very seldom. All the different denominations seemingly sprung up in these latter years. But the main churches were just the Baptist church. In fact, we only had two Baptist and Methodist, all these others, Presbyterian and Lutheran, all of those though—	3:58
Paul Ortiz	Do you know what the oldest churches Black shirts in Indianola, are they—	4:52
Julia Taylor	Bell Grove.	4:56
Paul Ortiz	Bell Grove. Did your father ever give guest sermons at Bell Grove or—	4:57
Julia Taylor	Yes, I've known him to preach there. I don't know exactly what he was called.	5:12
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, when you were perhaps in your high school years or even earlier, did your parents make clear to you that they had certain expectations about you in terms of career?	5:27
Julia Taylor	Yeah. Mm-hmm.	5:43
Paul Ortiz	Were those expectations?	5:44
Julia Taylor	Well, when I went to school, I was afraid to come home with anything less than a B. That was just something that had to be, you just didn't do. And that was in many families that were—You were just expected to. I really just had to do it or something.	5:47
Paul Ortiz	And that was also true in your high school years? Mrs. Taylor, what was the name of your high school?	6:21
Julia Taylor	Jackson. I finished high school at Jackson.	6:34
Paul Ortiz	Oh, Jackson, Mississippi?	6:37
Julia Taylor	Jackson, Mississippi. It was called Jackson. It was college then.	6:38
Paul Ortiz	Oh, okay.	6:44
Julia Taylor	It was a denominational college.	6:45
Paul Ortiz	And that was boarding school? Obviously you went to a boarding—	6:47
Julia Taylor	Uh-huh. I went to boarding school.	6:49
Paul Ortiz	Was there a Black high school in Indianola?	6:55
Julia Taylor	Not at that time.	6:58
Paul Ortiz	So if you were Black and you wanted to go to high school, you had to—	7:01
Julia Taylor	Go to Greenville.	7:04
Paul Ortiz	Greenville.	7:04
Julia Taylor	I mean, Greenville was the nearest place where you could go to high school. However, I went to Jackson College.	7:07
Paul Ortiz	Now the Whites probably had high schools in town.	7:15
Julia Taylor	Oh yeah, they had a high school.	7:20
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, that must have been quite a change for you traveling to boarding school.	7:28
Julia Taylor	Now, I stayed on campus for four years and now sometime—Because when I first went to Jackson College, my father don't know too much about this part of the country, I don't imagine. But I told you that my father was pastoring a church down—But at any rate, Florida is not too far from Jackson. And occasionally when my father would come to preach that Sunday, that Monday, he would come on down to the college to see me occasionally.	7:36
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor. What came next after Jackson for you? Where, what was your next stop?	8:33
Julia Taylor	Educational wise? Just what did I do next?	8:42
Paul Ortiz	Yes.	8:48
Julia Taylor	I started, started teaching.	8:48
Julia Taylor	Where did you begin teaching at?	8:56
Julia Taylor	Moorhead? A place called Moorhead.	8:59
Paul Ortiz	In Mississippi?	9:01
Julia Taylor	Mm-hmm.	9:03
Paul Ortiz	Was that in the Delta or—	9:10
Julia Taylor	Right up the street there.	9:11
Paul Ortiz	Oh, okay.	9:15
Julia Taylor	No, not in Indianola. In a place called Moorhead, but it's about eight miles from here. It's just a little—I already call it a neck. I don't know what, but it's about eight miles from here. Moorhead.	9:15
Paul Ortiz	Was it a plantation area?	9:27
Julia Taylor	No, this is in the little town.	9:29
Paul Ortiz	Town, okay. Mrs. Taylor, could you tell me what your experiences teaching were like? What kinds of students walked into your classroom and what were the challenges you faced as a young teacher?	9:37
Julia Taylor	Well, children. You had no terrible children. Remember now, you're talking about in the twenties, the teacher was the teacher. Whatever the teacher said, that—It was different situation from now. Children weren't beating you, you were just a teacher. Whatever you said went. Of course, that changed with the years.	9:53
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, what kinds of children would come into your class? Were they well-clothed, were they barefoot? Were they kind of a mix?	10:24
Julia Taylor	Nah, I've never taught a child whose barefoot, I've never seen a child come to school barefoot. I have heard of it, but not in the community which I worked. And that was just hearsay. We didn't have—I never taught a child in any adverse conditions.	10:44
Julia Taylor	Now, there certainly were children who were not well clothed as others. Then there were children who, in instances in the lifespan of teaching, I taught 41 years and in that lifespan of teaching, there were occasions when I ran up on different types of—all types. Some dressed exceptionally well, some's parents living exceptionally well, and that was just the way things were. But I never had an occasion to teach a child who was in that state, barefoot or something like that. But of course, that's been a long time ago. Times have changed. If a child were barefoot now, the state would buy something for him, give him something. But I heard a long time ago, children on plantations didn't have things that they needed.	11:20
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, when you began teaching, were there Black teacher's organizations in Mississippi?	12:39
Julia Taylor	Organizations?	12:47
Paul Ortiz	Yes ma'am.	12:48
Julia Taylor	Uh-huh. Yes, well they've always had teacher's organization. They had to have Black. You must recall at the time which you speak, there was no mixing. Everything was Black. You just saw a White person, but you had no dealings, whatever Integration just started here back in the fifties.	12:48
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, throughout your career as a teacher, did you see changes in educational philosophy within Black schools? Let's say take up to the 1950s, between the 1920s and '50s.	13:38
Julia Taylor	Well, that's when the changes took place here. On a smaller scale. Until that time there had been changes, mediocre changes, this improvement and this and a little improvement. The schools had improved, oh, quite a lot. But the integration, when time came, when it say this is this, this must be this, this must be that, that was in the fifties. But now before that time, there had been [indistinct 00:14:46], because I can recall when I first started teaching, when we went to the teacher's meeting, getting ready to start the school, the school's going to start next week, when we had the meeting to get our materials and things. And we were given a little box of crayon about like that, of White crayon and a register to write the children name. And that was all of the teaching material. But now through the years, things have changed. They had changed before integration. Just back in the years, all through the years, little by little you had gotten a little more of this, or a little more of that before actual integration came.	14:00
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, as a Black teacher, you knew that there were a lot of shortcomings within the Black school. What were things you could do to make up for those? Like you said, you didn't have a lot of materials. What could you do—	15:43
Julia Taylor	For instance, yourself.	16:02
Paul Ortiz	What kinds of things would you [indistinct 00:16:20]?	16:15
Julia Taylor	Well, you always needed something to work with. You could subscribe to teaching school. Okay, say I was working in a church. Now you need a dictionary. You need a set of encyclopedia. So now, if I wanted a set of encyclopedia, I bought it. I subscribed somewhere and I paid so much a month on it. And then that at that time back then, the forties and thirties, people were going through town, through rural and other places, anywhere, selling candy everywhere.	16:19
Julia Taylor	And of course, this is according to the type of teacher you were, if you wanted it, you got it. I cannot imagine a classroom without a dictionary, a set of encyclopedia. But there was nothing. Some teachers had never heard of a set of encyclopedia, or something. Because this particular person, it may be that you were living out here on this plantation, and that's all you had was that crayon and that notebook. And you had to want this and if you wanted enough, you find means to get it.	17:14
Paul Ortiz	And that was the kind of teacher you were?	17:52
Julia Taylor	Mm-hmm.	17:53
Paul Ortiz	So you really had to be resourceful.	17:55
Julia Taylor	Mm-hmm. That's right.	17:58
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, what were the interactions you'd have with the parents of the children? How did they react to you as a teacher?	18:15
Julia Taylor	Well, it's a different situation now. Back in the forties and thirties, fifties, even up until the late fifties, just the word teacher itself carried with it a meaningful, you were respected as a teacher. Now children don't care nothing about no teacher. Teacher doesn't mean anything because teacher, well, in more ways than one, they have lost character. They have just lost. Teacher is just a teacher. It's somebody who goes to school. She does anything what she wants to do and you don't have any morals anymore in any school, White or Black. This goes for both schools.	18:29
Julia Taylor	Now, that's just not a part of it. You are a young person, you don't know. But that's just not a part of the school. And when I first started teaching school in 1928, a teacher had to be a certain thing. You had to have a certain amount of moral, you couldn't go here. You couldn't do that. Nobody better not say they saw you doing this or doing that. Because the moral was so high it demanded respect so that the teacher could do no wrong back in those days. The teacher must be an example.	19:23
Paul Ortiz	So you're expected to uphold certain moral character?	20:17
Julia Taylor	Yes, that's right. Oh, yeah. School was all together different. Just the word teacher carried with it a certain amount of respect. Nobody bothers about—Teacher does what she wants to do. I'm talking about moral wise and that.	20:19
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, how about your administration that you as a teacher had to deal with? Was it primarily a Black administration?	20:47
Julia Taylor	It was, all together.	20:55
Paul Ortiz	Who would've been considered, I mean in addition to the teachers, who were considered to be the main champions of education in the Black community, would it have been people in the administration, in the school administration?	21:02
Julia Taylor	Yeah, I'm sure. Because naturally all of the rules and everything were set by a higher up. You had standards. For instance, you had the superintendent, the assistant superintendent, of course the principal, because that's all you had back there was the school [indistinct 00:21:47]. Now you have all kind of titles. Title one, three, every title carries within its own administrative ideas. And there's so much now, none of this was in it when I started teaching school. Now nobody bothers about anything. Somebody sits up there and makes the room say, "We're going to have this and the administration and the curriculum is going to carry this and going to carry that that year." And everybody in room knows most likely the person who's sitting up there writing up what we going to have this year has never taught school a day in his life, has never had any contact with children all like this.	21:21
Paul Ortiz	A lot of changes.	22:39
Julia Taylor	Oh yeah.	22:43
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, you said you taught eight years, I think at Moorhead—	22:48
Julia Taylor	Moorhead.	22:52
Paul Ortiz	Moorhead. And then where did you teach after that?	22:58
Julia Taylor	When I retired, I retired from Louisville Central High School.	23:01
Paul Ortiz	Oh, in Louisville. Oh, so you were living in Louisville.	23:05
Julia Taylor	Uh-uh. Living right here.	23:18
Paul Ortiz	Oh, okay. So you commuted out there and you had a car. Did you decide at some point Mrs. Taylor to raise your own family or—	23:18
Julia Taylor	I don't have any children of my own, however there were relatives. Listen to me talking about they were, they are relatives. I reared two girls. They are both relatives of mine. But I reared them from babies.	23:36
Paul Ortiz	So you took that responsibility on yourself. Was that something you did—Did their parents pass away or—	23:57
Julia Taylor	No, I don't know. Well, now, I didn't have any particular reason. They were just relatives, wasn't anything the matter with their parents. Parents still live now. But just took them because I guess I had them kids of my own, I don't know what was the reason, but we just took them. That's all. I've had them all the time. In fact, that's just kind of common among my people.	24:09
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, you're saying if it was common to adopt relatives?	24:53
Julia Taylor	Or I didn't adopt them. They are relatives of mine. Yeah, that's one of the characteristics. That's just common among Colored people. "Give me Mary Jane. Okay, Mary Jane, you come and stay with me. Sally, you stay with such and such a person." Now you can adapt them if you wish.	24:58
Paul Ortiz	So that was kind of a way of helping each other—	25:23
Julia Taylor	Yeah, helping your relatives that maybe not quite—Maybe that you feel need help. I'll put it like that.	25:34
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, now when you were in Louisville and during your career, now considering you had some very stringent moral standards to uphold, what could you do in terms of leisure or recreation?	25:52
Julia Taylor	Well, that isn't now. They don't have any moral or anything else to uphold. Everybody does, including young and old, what he wants to do. You don't bother about upholding anything. For instance, you're teaching school here today. You got a class sitting up here. You got a girl sitting up here, her water going to break right here in the class. That's the consensus of the group. That's the way school is. Now you sitting up here, the child right over here. Not something that used to be, the child right over there—	26:09
Julia Taylor	Go over there and look at the high school, you see as many girls over there with a stomach as big as this. Now, that's not in Colored school, that's not in White school, that's in all of them. So everybody does what he wants to do, that's just the generation. That's the gap, the generation gap. Everybody does what he wants to do. Children go to school today, he has his baby next week, week after next, he's the campus queen. Where is the moral? You don't have any, White nor Black. You don't have any. That's just way it goes.	27:05
Paul Ortiz	Back then, Mrs. Taylor, what would happen if a Black teenage girl was pregnant and-	27:54
Julia Taylor	She didn't go to school no more? She's a woman now.	28:02
Paul Ortiz	So that was time to be an adult.	28:06
Julia Taylor	She's a woman now. She can't go. Oh, you wasn't there. And the teacher as well. Teacher don't have any husband, don't have anything. But you got five children. She's teaching school.	28:08
Paul Ortiz	Plus a daddy.	28:22
Julia Taylor	Ain't got no daddy.	28:24
Paul Ortiz	Oh, okay. I see. But during your career—	28:25
Julia Taylor	No.	28:32
Paul Ortiz	Could you be married?	28:34
Julia Taylor	You could be married. What?	28:37
Paul Ortiz	Can you be married as a teacher? Could you get married? Oh yeah. You could marry. But you must be married, you can't loosely—	28:39
Paul Ortiz	Oh, out of wedlock.	28:49
Julia Taylor	Yeah, you can't. Mm-hmm.	28:51
Paul Ortiz	Could you have children if you were married as a teacher?	28:55
Julia Taylor	Yeah, if you got a husband. Because that's what I'm talking about. That's the moral part. You can have dozen children, you got to husband, have as many children as you want. But you can't teach my daughter and you sleeping with Sally, Jane tomorrow night and Peter tomorrow night, you got eight children here. This one is John and that one is Peter and that and this part. Ain't no moral there, I don't care whether he's White or Black or who.	28:58
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor during the thirties and forties and fifties, which church did you attend?	29:41
Julia Taylor	Church on the corner. Same church, Bell Grove. I've been belonged to it 60 some years.	29:51
Paul Ortiz	Geez. What kind of role, Mrs. Taylor, would you say that Bell Grove has played over the years in the Black community?	29:59
Julia Taylor	It has been the leading light in this community.	30:08
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, earlier you were talking about how churches when you were growing up would sponsor social events. Did Bell Grove continue to do that?	30:10
Julia Taylor	It does now.	30:41
Paul Ortiz	It does now. Mrs. Taylor, how many ministers has Bell Grove had over the years?	30:43
Julia Taylor	I only know of two. The one we have now, I think this is his 40—He came to us in '51 and the one who preceded him was with us about, let me see, I think he was 40. He was somewhere in the forties too.	31:07
Paul Ortiz	So you basically—	31:53
Julia Taylor	Our present pastor, this is his 46th year or something like that.	31:54
Paul Ortiz	Oh, that's Reverend Matthews?	32:02
Julia Taylor	Mm-hmm.	32:04
Paul Ortiz	Oh, okay. I'm actually trying to get in contact with him. Do you know how I could get in contact? I have his number, but—	32:04
Julia Taylor	Well he lives on BB King Road across that side. That's the next highway over, the next main street over. That's about two blocks. He lives on BB King Road.	32:15
Paul Ortiz	Okay. Mrs. Taylor, I know I've taken up a lot over your morning.	32:41
Julia Taylor	Oh, well that's—	32:45
Paul Ortiz	Just a couple more questions. When you look back through your distinguished career as a teacher and the time of your growing up until now, what have been the major changes that you witnessed within the Black community and what have been the things that haven't changed?	32:45
Julia Taylor	Well, I really don't know of anything that haven't changed at all because there must be progress in anything. You either go back or you go forward. There ain't no such thing as standing still. Time does not stand still. But the changes are just in all phases. Things have changed educationally, community wise, there have just been progress, that's just national. There has been national progress in all phases of life. Everything has just changed and it would need be so. Everything has changed.	33:11
Julia Taylor	And relationships, some for the better, some for the worse. I don't know if that's because of the fact everybody does not see things alike and they don't fall in the same category with everybody. Where, to me, this might look like progress, where in your situation it seems to be deteriorating. But you can just usually say on a whole, things are better.	34:16
Julia Taylor	For instance, teaching school, some people are okay, yeah, Black and White go to school together. That didn't happen back then, but just the same, there are thousands of people who do not like it. So to these people over here, that's progress, to these people over here, that's retardation. So it's according to how you look at it, but even so, you must know that there has been progress. Nothing stands still either go up or down or in between, but you're somewhere.	34:54
Paul Ortiz	So there's been both with the progress and the—Mrs. Taylor, what about in the field of race relations? What would've been the changes you've noticed and then the things that haven't changed between relations, between the races?	35:49
Julia Taylor	Well, that answer would hold true in many instances. Advantages are better. People have more advantages. That's true all around it's just decided whether or not you consider it for the better. It's not the changes there. There are people, there are still neighborhoods where White people can't live, there are neighborhoods where Colored people can't live. There are neighborhoods where people still do not mix and it's by a matter of choice whether White or Black. So you see, it's according to which eye you are looking at as to whether or not there's a change for the better for worse. It's according to what eye you're looking at.	36:10
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, throughout your life and the challenges you've faced, both within and without the classroom, what have been the main things that have inspired you to keep on striving for your goals?	37:16
Julia Taylor	Well, they have just always been high. I was reared like that. I was reared like that. Regardless of whether he's White or Black, I'm going to be something if I'm green. There are certain moral standards I go by, I don't care whether you're White or green. I don't care if I'm White or green. There's some things I won't do. I don't stoop to some things. And it didn't come from no schooling, that's just me. I don't stoop to anything. I was raised with moral standards and to me, they mean.	37:37
Paul Ortiz	Mrs. Taylor, are there any other experiences or that you'd like to relate or add that you haven't talked about?	38:39
Julia Taylor	I don't know of anything else. I guess I've told you the whole history of my life, not intentionally.	38:42
Paul Ortiz	Okay.	38:42

Item Info

Title:

Julia Taylor interview recording, 1995 August 08

Date:

August 8, 1995

Creator:

Taylor, Julia

Contributor:

Ortiz, Paul

Description:

Name: Julia Taylor; Date of birth: 1910-11-07; Place of birth: Indianola, MS; Occupation(s): educator; teacher; Residence: Indianola, MS
Informant ID: 1179; Interviewed by: Paul Ortiz.

Occupation:

Location:

Format:

Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-1999

Series:

Related Resources:

See below

Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

Rights Note:

Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

Identifier:

Interview number: 510
86f33066-7890-4c4c-93c7-ea43e8dcc9a7
behindtheveil
btvct04039
ark:/87924/r42r3tc27
a206c98b-7853-445e-bcbc-47b2671d12df

Permalink:

https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r42r3tc27

Sponsor:

Sponsor this Digital Collection

Julia Taylor interview recording, 1995 August 08

Transcript

Item Info

1. Julia Taylor administrative file, 1995

John Hope Franklin Research Center

More Info & Options

Julia Taylor interview recording, 1995 August 08

Transcript

Item Info

Related Items

John Hope Franklin Research Center

More Info & Options