Willie Harrell interview recording, 1995 June 29

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Willie Harrell	Harrell. H-A-R-R-E-L-L, Harrell.	0:01
Stacey Scales	And your first name, sir?	0:02
Willie Harrell	Willie. W-I-L-L-I-E, Willie.	0:06
Stacey Scales	Okay. When did you come to the Memphis area?	0:06
Willie Harrell	Oh, back in—I don't know. I was young when I left Mississippi and come here in Memphis, way back there. I forget what year it was, but that was way back there when I left Mississippi and come to Memphis. I left Mantee, Mississippi, come to Memphis. I was just a young boy then.	0:17
Stacey Scales	Okay. What are your earliest memories of Memphis?	0:39
Willie Harrell	I don't know. It's been a long time. It's been a long time since I've been left Mississippi and come to Memphis.	0:46
Stacey Scales	Why did your family come here? Why did you come here?	0:54
Willie Harrell	I come here on account of, see, I was on the plantation and I got that day, at that time, well, it was tough on the plantation, you know? You know a plantation like you farming and all?	0:58
Stacey Scales	Yes, sir.	1:08
Willie Harrell	Yeah. That's down that other side of Parchman, Mississippi. You hear a tell of that?	1:09
Stacey Scales	Parchman, Mississippi?.	1:14
Willie Harrell	Yeah, right down there up from Drew Mississippi, down in there. I was down there for years farming on the plantation, and it got so tough from down there, I left there and come to Memphis.	1:15
Stacey Scales	Okay. Did your entire family move up there?	1:28
Willie Harrell	Yeah, all of my people is up here. And my grandma and granddaddy, they dead. I got a cousin live right there. We was the same place raised together. She here, and the rest of my family, they still down there in Mississippi.	1:28
Stacey Scales	Okay, what attracted your family to this area here?	1:54
Willie Harrell	Just got tired of the country and we just come here.	1:56
Stacey Scales	What did they do when they came into the city?	2:02
Willie Harrell	What kind of work?	2:05
Stacey Scales	Yeah, work.	2:05
Willie Harrell	They did housework. She used to do housework, but I worked for Memphis Howenthall. I worked there 25 years. That's where I retired at.	2:06
Stacey Scales	Oh, you were?	2:17
Willie Harrell	Uh-huh. That's where I retired in Memphis Howenthall.	2:18
Stacey Scales	Okay. Were there a lot of Black businesses?	2:18
Willie Harrell	No, there wasn't no Black business down there for no Colored. It was all for White. In that time of year, no one would.	2:24
Stacey Scales	About when was that?	2:33
Willie Harrell	I can't recall it when was that. That was way back there. You didn't even—Everything you had to do is outside of the door. It wasn't inside the house, like a bathroom. We had to take a bath in a bathtub in front of the fireplace in the house. They didn't have it like it is here when I was coming up because in the country nothing have but the White people. Colored didn't have nothing like that. You couldn't go in the front door down there. You had to go in the back. During that time you weren't allowed to go in White folk's house. You had to go around the back. They used to feed you outside of the door, outdoors. You weren't allowed to go in there.	2:34
Stacey Scales	How does it—I'm sorry.	3:20
Willie Harrell	No, Cliff. Go ahead. That'd been some years back there.	3:22
Stacey Scales	How would that make you feel when you had been treated like that?	3:27
Willie Harrell	In that time, it made me feel bad after I got big enough to realize. When I got big enough to realize that since I've been here in Memphis, the only kind of thing changed now on account of Dr. Martin Luther King. He changed a lot of things. We couldn't drink water or go in places here in Memphis until they had that riot. When he got there we was on the bus, you had to sit in the back on the bus. Now you sit on the front. See that made a whole lot of difference in those things.	3:28
Stacey Scales	Were there any leaders before him or before that time here?	4:05
Willie Harrell	No, there wasn't none. There wasn't no leaders or nothing before then. He's the only one that's straightened out this country. Dr. Martin Luther King lost his life on straightening out this country. Because if he didn't, it'd been just like it was then. Yes, there was no one. It was tough when they come up in Mississippi. When I born and raised in Mississippi, it was tough. They didn't have—People, when ladies have babies, they had midwives at home, in the house. Back there, way back there in them days, yeah.	4:13
Stacey Scales	So people would come to the house.	4:45
Willie Harrell	And deliver a baby.	4:45
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	4:46
Willie Harrell	I was born, they delivered me in the house. My mama had me in the house. They delivered me in the house. It ain't like going to the hospital when you're pregnant now and having children.	4:52
Stacey Scales	Who would come? The midwives?	5:03
Willie Harrell	Yeah, it'd be the midwives, ladies.	5:04
Stacey Scales	How did they learn how to do that?	5:13
Willie Harrell	That's what I want to understand. That's what I don't understand, how they learned to do that. But I know several of them back there deliver babies at the house. Yeah, I don't know how they come to learn to do that, you know? Because I was small, but I can remember. I can remember that in them days.	5:14
Stacey Scales	Did they have Black doctors during that time?	5:29
Willie Harrell	No. They didn't have no Black doctors. It wasn't nothing but White doctors back there then. It wasn't nothing but White doctors. That's all. It's just White doctors. They didn't have no Black doctors then back there. Yeah.	5:37
Stacey Scales	Could you describe your neighborhood while you were growing up?	5:48
Willie Harrell	Well, it was down there—When I was growing up, before I left there, it was down there in Mantee, Mississippi on a plantation. That's when I was growing up. I left there when I was young, come here in Memphis. I was young then.	5:51
Stacey Scales	What would you do for entertainment here in Memphis?	6:13
Willie Harrell	When I come here in Memphis?	6:15
Stacey Scales	Yes.	6:16
Willie Harrell	What I did? I didn't know. I would get out and try to find a job. That's what I did. Got out and tried to find me a job and got from where at now.	6:16
Stacey Scales	What was your first job?	6:34
Willie Harrell	First job, I worked here was at Cross Town Storage moving furniture. It used to be down here on Hernadez. That's the first job I had. Now, that wasn't the first in Memphis. Furniture Factory was the first thing I had before they moved here, from there down on Brooks. That was back there years ago when that Memphis Furniture Factory was over there on Dudley.	6:35
Stacey Scales	What did you do?	7:10
Willie Harrell	I was stacking furniture, warehouse. You know, they making furniture? Back there then, they were making furniture like couches and beds and things ,and I was stacking them back in the stockroom.	7:10
Stacey Scales	About how much did you get paid for doing that?	7:19
Willie Harrell	I wasn't getting but 25 cents an hour. 25 cents an hour. When I first started working for Memphis Howenthall, I wasn't getting but a $1.25 a hour until they got a union in there. Then they raised it on up.	7:21
Stacey Scales	Did the Whites get paid the same wage as the Blacks?	7:42
Willie Harrell	No, the Whites got paid more than the Blacks did. They come in there, White come in they bring their salaries up, but Colored come in there, they wasn't getting—I worked for 25 cents an hour.	7:48
Stacey Scales	And they would make?	7:58
Willie Harrell	They would make say about $1.50 or more of that in an hour.	8:00
Stacey Scales	Would you all be doing the same amount of work?	8:06
Willie Harrell	Yeah, we'd be doing the same work, working the same right side by side.	8:07
Stacey Scales	Did you all ever say anything about that?	8:14
Willie Harrell	Said something about it, but it wasn't nothing we could do about it. Else work or go home. That's what they'd tell you. So they didn't have no choice. Back there then you had to work, but see things back that then were cheaper than what it was now. You can take a say $1.50 and go to store and buy a lot groceries, but you can't take $100 and go to store and buy no groceries now high as stuff is. You see what I mean? Back then in them days everything was cheap, but now stuff just done gone up.	8:16
Stacey Scales	Where was your neighborhood that you first moved to in Memphis?	8:51
Willie Harrell	Over here on Porter.	8:57
Stacey Scales	Okay, on Porter Street?	8:58
Willie Harrell	Yeah, on Porter Street. When I left, left Mississippi, that's where I come on Port Street.	9:01
Stacey Scales	Were people homeowners? Did they own their own homes?	9:07
Willie Harrell	No, renting. When I come here, my auntie was staying on Porter Street in a big old, tall rooming house. That was years ago, and she been dead years ago. That's when I left Mississippi and come here. The people weren't owning their own home then. They were renting.	9:10
Stacey Scales	Renting?	9:32
Willie Harrell	Yeah. And I used to room in one room. So I just got on up and come here with this man. I been living this man about 10 or 15 years.	9:32
Stacey Scales	Did people own cars then?	9:46
Willie Harrell	No Colored didn't own, didn't know what a car was. Back in when I was in the country, my uncle had a old A-model old T-model we call. No, the peoples living then didn't have no car, didn't know what a car was. They wasn't able to buy a car. Didn't nobody have a care but White folks, them big White peoples on the plantation. We Colored ain't know what no car is now then. But now look at them what they driving now. When I was coming up, we didn't know what a car was; didn't know nothing but mules and tractors. That's all we knowed about. All we ever did farm, mules. That's all I ever know, mules and tractors.	9:47
Stacey Scales	Did you all get paid to farm the land?	10:34
Willie Harrell	Yeah, end of the year, at the end of the year.	10:34
Stacey Scales	End of the year.	10:34
Willie Harrell	Yeah. See they allow you so much a month for food. Back there then you was a pair of shoes, you were getting shoes with food stamps. Stuff was rationed then. They were back there then lard and flour and stuff, we had to come to Memphis to get lard and flour back there then; it were rationed. They used to haul our groceries on these school buses. They used to come to our house down them dirt roads in the country once in a month. That's where we'd get our groceries. They'd haul it on the school bus. Wasn't no store like it is now, go in no store and buy your food. Back there then. I can't recall back there but man, I can remember it good. Yeah, I remember it good. But down there now the things done changed. All my people down there now got fine homes and cars, but when I come up they didn't have it. See they didn't have it.	10:48
Stacey Scales	So did you all own the farm?	11:40
Willie Harrell	No, we didn't own no farm. We just worked on the farm. See, so they do so much a year if we cleared anything like when they sell cotton and everything and settle up, if we made anything they would get it. If we didn't, we have to go for another year if we going stay on that plantation. But if we want move on another plantation, well that boss man come and pay for what we owe and move us on that plantation. That's the way they did.	11:47
Stacey Scales	What type of crops did you all raise?	12:17
Willie Harrell	Cotton, corn and everything you could name. We raised cotton, and corn, gardens, and everything you could name back there then. That's all they ever know what to do.	12:19
Stacey Scales	Cotton and corn.	12:31
Willie Harrell	Cotton and corn, beans, peas, peanuts, and potatoes and everything. Yeah, end of the year, that's what we did.	12:35
Stacey Scales	So what type of things would you all do for holidays on your holiday time?	12:50
Willie Harrell	Nothing but 4th of July, we might go to a picnic they allow them to have, a big picnic out in the woods. That's once a year. That's all we to go. That's only where to go. When they lay by the crop in July, you got something else still to do. You still working. You don't ever have no off. When they lay the crop by in July, you're still cutting wood or doing something the whole year.	12:55
Stacey Scales	Did the people you all work for treat you fair?	13:23
Willie Harrell	No, no, no, no, no. I was down there at plantation for—When I left there I had to leave there at night. I left at night. They hemmed me up in the barn where they feed mule and they whooped me. When I got here, I had to go out to John Gaston hospital. They liked to kill me down there. I had to slip off at night. When I left Mississippi, I left at night. I laid across the railroad track in Mississippi and train woke me up and I took a handkerchief and flagged it, and caught the train and come here in Memphis. You have to leave there at night. You couldn't leave from down there in daytime. They'd catch you and kill you.	13:30
Stacey Scales	So you had to work for them or they would kill you?	14:03
Willie Harrell	Yeah, you had to work for them. They had plenty of cows, mules and things. You had to get them up in the evening and feed them, do all that stuff.	14:12
Stacey Scales	So it was like slavery?	14:19
Willie Harrell	Yeah, it was slavery time. You see that picture on TV back here where the old time that slavery was? That's the way it was when I come up in the country.	14:24
Stacey Scales	So when they caught you, they thought you were trying to leave?	14:33
Willie Harrell	Yeah. They'd take you back and whoop you. If they catch you trying to leave, they'll take you back there and whoop you, fasten you up in the barn and whoop you back there then. That's just like old slavery time.	14:38
Stacey Scales	So that and that happened to you?	14:50
Willie Harrell	Yeah, that happened to me. That's right.	14:50
Stacey Scales	So how did you manage to work out a plan to leave?	14:58
Willie Harrell	I left like I'm telling you. I left that night when they was in the bed asleep around 2:00 and 3:00 at night. I got by their house at night when they was in the bed. I left at nighttime. I didn't leave in daytime. You couldn't leave in day. I left at night when everybody was asleep around 12:00. I never will forget. I left there around about 2:00, 3:00 that night and caught the train and come in Memphis.	15:02
Stacey Scales	So were you by yourself when you—	15:28
Willie Harrell	Yeah, I was by myself. I was by myself because my granddaddy and grandma had left from there. They left from there and come to Drew and I was in the hills.	15:30
Stacey Scales	So did they have to sneak and leave too?	15:43
Willie Harrell	Well, no they didn't have to do it because see when they settle up at the end of the year, they paid off. But I just stayed on. I was going to stay on through another year. But they got so bad I had to leave there. I had to run away from there at night.	15:46
Stacey Scales	Was Memphis different than living there?	16:04
Willie Harrell	Yeah. Memphis's a little different. Memphis's was a whole lot different than it is now when I come here.	16:07
Stacey Scales	Okay. No, I mean between the place where you ran from and—	16:13
Willie Harrell	It wasn't too far.	16:17
Stacey Scales	Okay.	16:17
Willie Harrell	Out from Houston, Mississippi. Do you know where Houston, they call Mississippi? No, isn't too far. It wasn't too far before I left and come here. No it wasn't too far. I was down there back here last year. But see they all dead now. All them people dead out down there. Yeah, they dead down there now. I didn't—Shoot, I didn't even know the town it's been so long since I haven't been down there. I got a sister live down there now. That's the reason I was down there about a year ago. I got a sister still live down there on the same place I left.	16:21
Stacey Scales	You said when you came here you had to go to the hospital?	17:00
Willie Harrell	Yeah, I had to.	17:02
Stacey Scales	Was it a Colored hospital?	17:02
Willie Harrell	Yeah, John Gaston. They call it Bowld now. You know John Gaston out there now? They called Bowld? Yeah, that's where I had to go when I first come in.	17:04
Stacey Scales	And they took care of you there?	17:15
Willie Harrell	Yeah, they treated me out there. Yeah, they treated me out there and when I left Mississippi.	17:16
Stacey Scales	They have Black doctors and nurses?	17:40
Willie Harrell	Not down there, not in Mississippi.	17:40
Stacey Scales	Okay, but at Gaston?	17:40
Willie Harrell	Yeah, Gaston, they had doctors. They got doctors here now, Black doctors and nurses, but they didn't have them in Mississippi.	17:40
Stacey Scales	So that was the name of the hospital, Gaston?	17:42
Willie Harrell	Yeah, but they called it the Bowld now. They changed it. Yeah, Bowld Hospital. Yeah, Bowld Hospital. Now there was, I first come in, they call it John Gaston; all nothing but Coloreds because see Colored wasn't able to go to no hospital. But that they didn't have no insurance or nothing. You understand? That's the only hospital they had to go to.	17:50
Stacey Scales	So here they would be midwives too?	18:16
Willie Harrell	No, no midwife. I remember him. That's when I stayed in the country. Wasn't no midwives here. They all when they have a baby, they goes out there at the hospital. That's when I was staying in the country. I remember midwives, not here.	18:18
Stacey Scales	Were there any Black newspapers here?	18:34
Willie Harrell	Yeah, I know one. Only one I know was Black. I can't recall the name of the Black newspaper here.	18:39
Stacey Scales	What other type of ways do Blacks get their news other than the newspaper?	18:51
Willie Harrell	Nothing but on the TV or radio as I know it.	19:00
Stacey Scales	Okay.	19:00
Willie Harrell	The Commercial Appeal. That ain't a Black paper. That's a White paper, Commercial Appeal. The Press Similar, whatever you call it, I think that's Black paper. Way we get our news is on the TV and radio.	19:01
Stacey Scales	Were there any Black organizations here like the NAACP when you came?	19:20
Willie Harrell	If it was, I don't remember, but I think it was. I can't remember. I can't remember, but I believe there was. But I didn't know anything about it until I got on up in the age, and then I found out.	19:28
Stacey Scales	Were your family of educated people? Did people go to school?	19:47
Willie Harrell	No, we couldn't go to no school. You take me. I didn't go to school but once or twice out of the year. That's right. I was in the first grade. I can't read and write now because I didn't have a chance to go to school back then in them days. They had school. See, you was on the plantation you didn't have a chance to go to school. And the school they house at just like a old house. You had to cut wood, set up on the heater. I didn't have a chance to go to school like children got now. Back there then, there wasn't no school like it is now. You had to walk seven or eight miles to the school. But now they got all kinds of ways to go to school.	19:52
Stacey Scales	How about your mother and father, your grandparents?	20:36
Willie Harrell	Well, they had a little education but not much. They had a little education, but they didn't have much. If I had had the chance—Hey, if I had the chance to go the school now like a lot of these kids man, I'd stay in the school. Now, you can't even get a job picking up paper unless you got some kind of education. That's why I was lucky to work for Memphis Howell over 25 years. That's where I retired at.	20:40
Stacey Scales	When did you first start working for them?	21:05
Willie Harrell	Shoot, I don't know, way back there. I can't even remember the year I started back there with there with them. See, that was a job didn't call for no education because if it did, I wouldn't have been working there that long. See, I was working out there in the projects picking up paper. Over there in the project, have you seen them projects since you've been here, like Lamar Garden over there? What's your hometown?	21:06
Stacey Scales	My hometown is Atlanta.	21:36
Willie Harrell	Atlanta, Georgia?	21:38
Stacey Scales	Yes, sir.	21:39
Willie Harrell	Oh yeah, I know my pastor got a church, used to be my pastor, pastored a church down there in Atlanta, Georgia, Reverend JW William. Did you hear tell her that? Reverend JW William?	21:39
Stacey Scales	No, not that I know of. Did you do much traveling back then to different places?	21:52
Willie Harrell	No. You couldn't travel. You didn't have no way to travel. You didn't have hardly nothing to eat, let alone talk about travel like they're there.	21:59
Stacey Scales	Were parts of Memphis that you wouldn't go? Are there places here that you wouldn't go?	22:08
Willie Harrell	Now?	22:08
Stacey Scales	In the '30s and '40s and '50s?	22:08
Willie Harrell	Yeah, there's a lot of places here I wouldn't go in Memphis right now. I wouldn't go to North Memphis right now. Far as I go from here to South Memphis and don't go too far down there.	22:19
Stacey Scales	Why wouldn't you go to North Memphis?	22:30
Willie Harrell	Because well, you know, North Memphis just a bad place. I don't go no place like that. In fact, about everywhere you go now is bad. But I'd rather go to south than go to North Memphis. I wouldn't go to North Memphis unless I'm going up there for business and right back. You talking about not going North Memphis, hanging around? Uh-uh, too rough. I don't go no further than the Southland Mall and back here, and don't go there unless I'm going for some business.	22:36
Stacey Scales	So what type of things were happening up in North Memphis during the '40s and '50?	23:08
Willie Harrell	The same thing they doing now, killing.	23:10
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	23:19
Willie Harrell	Yeah. Same thing they doing now, killing. That's right.	23:25
Stacey Scales	Were there places that just served Whites only that you weren't allowed to go?	23:25
Willie Harrell	Yeah, it's a lot of places back there then you wasn't allowed to go Whites.	23:30
Stacey Scales	Like where?	23:31
Willie Harrell	Like in clubs and different other places. Cafeteria where you eat at and stuff like that. There wasn't no Colored people allowed in them places.	23:34
Stacey Scales	So where would you go instead?	23:47
Willie Harrell	In that time, where would I go? Nowhere, I would stay at home. Nowhere but stay at home.	23:51
Stacey Scales	Did you ever listen to Joe Lewis fight?	24:01
Willie Harrell	Yeah, I have listened to it on TV.	24:04
Stacey Scales	Okay.	24:06
Willie Harrell	Yeah, and radio. Yeah.	24:06
Stacey Scales	How would people respond when Joe Lewis would win?	24:11
Willie Harrell	They were for Joe Lewis. Everybody for Joe Lewis was Colored as I know. They're for Joe Lewis. Well, so was I was, and Mike Tyson, Sugar Ray Robinson. I'm for that. I like that. Yeah, I'm for it. Sure is. It was rough them days when I come up. How old are you?	24:15
Stacey Scales	27 years old.	24:47
Willie Harrell	Oh Lord, that much. You're really young. Yeah, you really little young.	24:47
Stacey Scales	Did your family go to church?	24:56
Willie Harrell	Oh yeah. We had a church, an old, old church. Man, we used to go to church in the wagon mule. My mama and grandpa and grandma used to load us up in the wagon. Used to go to, hook them mules up and go to church and man, you can hear them little churches a mile before you get there. I did. I love church. I go now every Sunday. I don't miss a Sunday now. I like to go to church. See I'm an usher. I'm an organization, and I sings in the choir. Yeah, I love church.	24:57
Stacey Scales	That's good.	25:31
Willie Harrell	I'm telling you.	25:37
Speaker 3	Hey.	25:37
Willie Harrell	Hey.	25:37
Stacey Scales	Did people back then talk about superstitions and haints and—	25:38
Willie Harrell	Oh man, what are you talking about? Yeah, they used to have us scared many times. Like when people die, you go, it lived in the old country house, you better go to sleep. Made like they can see haints coming in the house and all that such a thing. Yeah, there was superstition. Yeah they used to do it but used to have us scared many times. They see a haint. Pass a cemetery, made like they see a haint and all that stuff. Wouldn't be seeing nothing.	25:41
Stacey Scales	No it wasn't there?	26:11
Willie Harrell	No it wasn't no real. That just was some old superstition they would say. I ain't never seen nothing. They tried to show me something like that. Now I ain't never seen nothing like that. Uh-huh no, sure hasn't.	26:12
Stacey Scales	Would people back then use plants and things to help get better? Plants and berries and roots?	26:27
Willie Harrell	Yeah, like when you have a cold and stuff, they like to get you some dumb old roots and boil it, make tea out of it, mulling. Mama and them used get hoarse stuff and boil it and make tea out of it for us. Pine tar make tea for cold. Pine rosin off a tree like chewing gum and all that, Mom and them used to get that many days for us. Sure did. Them old swamp roots, dig them up, and boil them, and give us tea to drink. Yeah, all that old stuff man. It was just looked like it was better them days than it is now. You can't take that stuff now. Uh-huh, no kind of way. We used to used to give us that Vicks salve. When you have a cold, paint your Vicks salve, grease your chest, and put the flannel and cloth to you and put you in the bed when you got a cold. But you can't use that stuff now.	26:37
Stacey Scales	Why?	27:38
Willie Harrell	Because that stuff now 'adays, you can't use. It'll kill you. Doctor don't require that now. Oh yeah. They don't require that now.	27:39
Stacey Scales	How do people learn about those things?	27:47
Willie Harrell	I don't know. Old people learned about it. They used to take that kerosine and give a teaspoon, put sugar in it, and take a match and barn it, and used to give it to us. We used to eat it like candy.	27:49
Stacey Scales	Oh yeah?	28:03
Willie Harrell	Yeah, you can't do that now. I thinks about that. It wasn't no sickness then like it is now. No, it wasn't no sicken then like it is now. I go doctor, doctor give you that old different kind of medicine and stuff now. Shoot, I never didn't know nothing about no high blood pressure till years ago. I went to the doctor, and they found my pressure was how. Now I'm taking a pressure pill every day. Every day, and I don't even feel it. They say you can't eat pork and different things. Now I can eat all the pork I want. I don't be dizzy or have no headache or nothing.	28:03
Stacey Scales	Okay.	28:42
Willie Harrell	Uh-huh. But now I have to take a pressure pill every morning. Water pill, potassium, teaspoon potassium, an iron pill every morning. Ain't got enough iron in the blood and all that. I didn't ever know what that was when I was a kid coming up in the country. Since I got here you know doctors and things, wasn't nothing right there.	28:43
Stacey Scales	You said that there would be a bus that would bring you food?	29:08
Willie Harrell	Yeah, a bus you see like the old school buses. You see the little school bus? Yeah, they been loaded down like grocery. They bring you shoes and everything.	29:15
Stacey Scales	So you all didn't eat the food off the farm you worked in?	29:24
Willie Harrell	Yeah, they bring it to your house.	29:26
Stacey Scales	Oh okay.	29:26
Willie Harrell	See, and they allow you so much a month you get it off of that bus. That's just like a grocery store. You couldn't go to no grocery store. They didn't have that many in town. Your food come out on the bus like that, shoes. It was food stamp rations. Shoes was rationed. You couldn't get but one pair of shoe a year off of the bus. That's way back the other day.	29:29
Stacey Scales	Were there ever any incidents where they were people got hung?	29:54
Willie Harrell	Yeah, I know some who got hung. You couldn't even look at a White woman hard man down there then when I come up. You would get hung. Yeah, sure would. Then time back here when that Colored boy whistled at that White gal they killed down here in Mississippi? You remember that?	29:58
Stacey Scales	Yes, sir.	30:21
Willie Harrell	Sure will, man. It was just an old slavery time. Shoot fasten you up and whoop you just like you a dog or mule or animal or something.	30:24
Stacey Scales	So they would tie you?	30:29
Willie Harrell	Yeah, they would tie you up or hem you up in a barn or something. It be brothers on the plantation, two or three brothers, old White honkies you know, wear them old hats. You see them old hats? They got old look like old Texas hats.	30:35
Stacey Scales	Oh yeah.	30:52
Willie Harrell	Old honkies is what I call them. Yeah man, they beat you to death.	30:55
Stacey Scales	Did people ever try to fight back?	31:00
Willie Harrell	No, they couldn't try to fight back and get killed. Couldn't try to fight back then in them days they would kill you. There wouldn't be nothing did about it. Yeah, back there then. Couldn't fight back. I would see, I look at it every Sunday morning on Channel 13 Old Ann Hailey. How them children? You know them children here. I think about that when I was coming up. We was coming up as just something like that where I was living at. It was just something like that. You wore boots and all that and them overalls. My granddaddy wore a pair of boots until he couldn't get a string in them. But he tore them and just kept putting string in them to walk on. Couldn't get no shoes or nothing like that until the end of the year. I can remember good.	31:00
Stacey Scales	Did people ever talk about slavery back then?	31:58
Willie Harrell	Yeah. They talked about it; sure did.	32:01
Stacey Scales	Do you have any memories that come down in your family?	32:04
Willie Harrell	No.	32:05
Stacey Scales	They shared with you?	32:05
Willie Harrell	No, it wasn't all in my family. They just come down this year. They wasn't in it then. But it was tough back during them days when I come up, man. I ain't couldn't see no better until I got here in Memphis. Then later years and years they come. It is getting better, and the war with Color.	32:17
Stacey Scales	How'd you all survive those tough times? How did you all survive?	32:32
Willie Harrell	Just in good and in the Lord. That's what it was, just good and in the Lord until it got away from that. That's all. Used to live in Howard. It was snowing. You'd look up, and you see the blue sky rain in it. Yeah man, it was tough. Had toilets outdoors. You know you have to go out outdoor to do everything you do, or at night you go in the cornfield. They have cornfield cotton field right around the house. Go out there. Yeah, like I tell you, it was rough back there in them days. I can't think of what year that was but I know when I was coming up it was tough.	32:38
Stacey Scales	So did you all ever get to get any crops and just bring them straight home after a workday?	33:20
Willie Harrell	No, it was just the end of the year when we got through picking cotton, and the gin, and the cotton, and the settling up, pulling corn and get all that stuff in, potatoes and peanuts and things like that—Hay and stuff like that. Until you got all that stuff in, by the time you got all that in you about, it was yet a time to start another crop back. When you got through with that crop, it's yet a time for another one.	33:27
Stacey Scales	Who would decide on what crop to plant?	33:53
Willie Harrell	The White guy where we be on the plantation. The old White guy, they'd be the one. We'd be the one farming, but they'd be the one to getting the stuff for us to planting and do around with.	33:57
Stacey Scales	Now you said a Black man could get hung from looking at a White woman.	34:11
Willie Harrell	Yeah.	34:17
Stacey Scales	Would White men look at Black women?	34:18
Willie Harrell	They could but nothing going be said about it. Wasn't nothing going be did about it. But Black couldn't look at no White. But White could look at Black all they wanted. Ain't going to be nothing did about it.	34:20
Stacey Scales	Did that happen?	34:32
Willie Harrell	Yeah, that happened. Sure that happened. Yes, sir. That happened right down there where I used to live in the plantation, in the country. Yeah, that happened. Sure will. It was rough back down there in that there. It ain't no better down there now.	34:33
Stacey Scales	What type of—When problems would come up in the family, who would be the one that solve them?	35:00
Willie Harrell	It'd be the oldest people.	35:07
Stacey Scales	Oh yeah?	35:09
Willie Harrell	Yeah. And it wouldn't be too much to solve because they wouldn't hear you no how. They wouldn't listen at you no how.	35:09
Stacey Scales	Was there healthcare when you came to Memphis?	35:28
Willie Harrell	There was here.	35:32
Stacey Scales	Yes.	35:33
Willie Harrell	Yeah. There wasn't no healthcare when I was in Mississippi. There was no nothing but doctors and you had to—They had to take you to doctors there. Doctors was had the office in they house in the back in they house. That's the way it is. It ain't like it was at here.	35:33
Stacey Scales	Did you ever used to go to the Red Sox games here?	35:56
Willie Harrell	No. No. I never go to no games here, nothing but the wrestling match.	36:00
Stacey Scales	Wrestling match?	36:07
Willie Harrell	Yeah.	36:07
Stacey Scales	Where was that?	36:07
Willie Harrell	That's out there at the coliseum.	36:07
Stacey Scales	At the coliseum?	36:07
Willie Harrell	Yeah.	36:07
Stacey Scales	Would the crowd be segregated? Would the Blacks be in one section and Whites—	36:12
Willie Harrell	No they're all together.	36:21
Stacey Scales	All together.	36:22
Willie Harrell	Yeah, here. Yeah, they all together here just like it anymore here. Like on these buses now, Whites all on the same seats and everything. It wasn't like that then when I come in the country. You had to ride at the back of the bus. The Whites on the front, you is down, you at the back. But now it ain't like that.	36:22
Stacey Scales	Do you remember your neighbors when you first moved here?	36:48
Willie Harrell	No, I don't remember them. I got some friends stay up here now. I don't a bit more know where they stay or nothing, forgot their names and everything. When I growed up kid with, I got some stay out there in North Memphis. I forget their name and everything. They come by here once in a while and they holler at me. We just got parley for one another.	36:54
Stacey Scales	During hard times, would people get together and help each other?	37:15
Willie Harrell	No. They—Uh-huh. They wouldn't get together help one another. Hard time it was people like when I come up to my friend, they was on one plantation and I was on another one. That's just way it was.	37:18
Stacey Scales	Could you visit other people?	37:33
Willie Harrell	Yeah, after hour at night, you can go and visit. Yeah, sometime on a Sunday you can go and visit, but through the week you couldn't because you be working all the time. You wouldn't have a chance to go visit nobody.	37:34
Stacey Scales	Did you marry?	37:53
Willie Harrell	No never did been married? No, never have been married. No.	37:54
Stacey Scales	What type of values did you think your parents gave you? Did you think your parents—What did your parents give you to help you survive as a human being?	38:04
Willie Harrell	Like when I was staying with them?	38:18
Stacey Scales	Yeah.	38:20
Willie Harrell	Nothing. I was out on my own. I was on my own after I left my parents. I was out on my own. As soon as I left my parents, I just was on out in the world on my own. I never did give my parents no trouble or nothing. I never been in the trouble. I ain't never had a police arrest me or stop me or said nothing to me. I ain't never been into nothing. I ain't never when a kid coming up fighting or anything. I ain't never been in a fight or nothing with children or nothing when I was coming up.	38:24
Stacey Scales	You have many brothers and sisters?	39:02
Willie Harrell	Yeah, I got two brothers in Chicago. I got one sister in Mississippi.	39:06
Stacey Scales	Who were the people most important to you when you were coming up?	39:11
Willie Harrell	My people, that's all. My people, take my cousin over there, me and her was growed up little kids together. We was growed up, and I got some more but they was in Mississippi now. They are from Clarksville now. We was all growed up together.	39:21
Stacey Scales	Now you said you went to school a couple of months out of the year?	39:39
Willie Harrell	Yeah.	39:43
Stacey Scales	How would they decide which months you would go?	39:43
Willie Harrell	We'd go when it rained and you couldn't do nothing in the field or you couldn't do no other kind of work. Just like it rained and you couldn't do nothing in the field, that's when you have a chance to go to school. But soon the sun come out like it is now and dry off, you in the field. Never did had not chance to go no school in them days.	39:46
Stacey Scales	What about during the winter?	40:05
Willie Harrell	In the winter is the same way because you out until you always doing something, cutting wood, or doing something cross ties or saw mill or doing something in the winter.	40:08
Stacey Scales	So only way it rained were you—	40:20
Willie Harrell	That only way. I bet you I didn't go two days out of month or year or something school.	40:22
Stacey Scales	Would there be Whites in the school too?	40:33
Willie Harrell	No, Colored.	40:35
Stacey Scales	All Black?	40:35
Willie Harrell	Colored go to school. All Whites, they had buses pick them up just like these school buses. Come pick them up at they house, deliver them at 3:00. But we had to walk three or four miles to school.	40:37
Stacey Scales	Do you remember your teachers?	40:53
Willie Harrell	No. Lord, I couldn't remember no teacher I ever went to school with. I can't remember. I can't think that far back. It was too far, and I was just a kid then.	40:54
Stacey Scales	Now, do you remember any type of businesses in Mississippi that people have or other than the other bus coming in, people support each other?	41:12
Willie Harrell	No, only business I know they have just like cotton mills, or store, the hospitals and things; that's all. But the Colored couldn't work there. It wasn't nothing but White. Wasn't no Colored working there. No nothing but White.	41:26
Stacey Scales	Could you shop there?	41:42
Willie Harrell	You can go to town, yeah and shop at them store? Yeah. And then you staying on the plantation, the White people load Coloreds up on the back of the pickup and take them to town and let them buy what they want, and they pay for it. Overalls, and jumpers and shoes like that, they would pay for it. They wouldn't give you the money to go and shop. They'd take you to shop.	41:44
Stacey Scales	Oh, and they would buy what you want?	42:10
Willie Harrell	They would pay for it, yeah. After you get what you want, they'll pay for it. They wouldn't give you the cash money like you go and shop now. You see what I'm talking about? They'll take you, and you buy what you want, and they'll pay for it.	42:10
Stacey Scales	So would you owe them back?	42:23
Willie Harrell	Yeah. You owe them. You have to pay. So you be on the plantation. They will furnish you there for the year, overalls and jumpers, they long underwear in the winter time. I know you don't know anything about them, drawers with the button in the behind. You know anything about that?	42:26
Stacey Scales	Yeah, I know about—	42:49
Willie Harrell	They all—Boy, I sit and remember that right now. I laugh at myself. I said Lord I'm—Really been good to me, blessed. I'm telling you the truth. Really been blessed, man. I was lucky they didn't kill me when I come from this. They tried to, but I got away from there, man. I got tired of that. If I'd have stayed on down there, they would've killed me. I left there at night. I laid across a railroad track. Train woke me up hitting the rail. I had a white hanky. I took it and did that and they blowed and flashed that light twice. And when they got up there to me, they just stopped, and let the gate down, and I walked on up in there and come right on here in a minute.	42:52
Stacey Scales	So you were asleep on the railroad tracks?	43:32
Willie Harrell	Yeah, it was around 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning when I left. The plantation I left it about three or four miles from the house.	43:36
Stacey Scales	Now—	43:41
Willie Harrell	In the woods.	43:42
Stacey Scales	So you would've gotten run over by the train?	43:43
Willie Harrell	I wasn't going to get run over by the train. See the train woke me up because the train was about six, seven miles and they hitting that trail and was blowing. It woke me up. I woked up and got up and see, and I just stepped back and then took that hanky and did three flags like that. When they pulled up on the side of me the main conductor whatever you call, he let the gate down. And I walked on in there and come on to Memphis.	43:45
Stacey Scales	Did he charge you?	44:15
Willie Harrell	Yeah, I had a ticket.	44:16
Stacey Scales	Okay.	44:16
Willie Harrell	Yeah, I had worked until I made enough money. I can't think how much a ticket was now to come here to Memphis. That's right.	44:17
Stacey Scales	So was the train segregated? Was Black and Whites people sitting in different places?	44:26
Willie Harrell	Yeah, they were segregated. Yeah, sure was because I had to go on the back of the train. Sat on the back, yeah.	44:31
Stacey Scales	Were the conditions there the same that the front of the train had? Was it the same?	44:41
Willie Harrell	Yeah, it had seats. Yeah, it was same seats and things. Yeah, same seats and things it was in the front as it was on the back. But you just Colored wasn't allowed to sit on the front. They had to go to the back.	44:46
Stacey Scales	So how'd you feel about leaving your family when you ran away?	44:59
Willie Harrell	I didn't have no family. When I left there, my people were down in the delta. I felt good from leaving there. They wasn't with me. They was down there, and I was down there. I was looking out for myself. Saved my life, see. They were down there, and I was here. Yeah, I was looking out for myself. That's where I was.	45:02
Stacey Scales	They were trying to whip you?	45:18
Willie Harrell	Yeah, they wasn't trying. They whooped me. Wasn't nothing I could do when I was a kid.	45:28
Stacey Scales	You were a kid then?	45:29
Willie Harrell	Yeah, there was two brothers, two old White honkies. There wasn't nothing I could do.	45:36
Stacey Scales	And did they have a whip?	45:42
Willie Harrell	Yeah, they have whoop a whip, a whip. Do you know one of them things was plaited and then it's sort of like a black thing you hook your hand over in and that whoop, you know? That whip.	45:44
Stacey Scales	Oh, yes, sir.	45:59
Willie Harrell	Yeah. She had that whoop. Sure wasn't nothing you can do but take it. If you try to resist, they would kill you.	45:59
Stacey Scales	And they would do that to all of the Black people on that farm?	46:16
Willie Harrell	Yeah. I tell you that, you do something wrong. That's right. And all the Blacks they had left from them there like I did, left at night. Yeah, just like I did. They left that farm like I did at night.	46:16
Stacey Scales	Did any of them get caught?	46:27
Willie Harrell	Yes, some of them got caught and some of them didn't. Some of them got caught, whooped and carried back, but they still left.	46:30
Stacey Scales	How did they catch them?	46:36
Willie Harrell	Catch them leaving from there. Some of them didn't have since enough. They'd call their self trying to get away from in the day.	46:39

Willie Harrell	—morning, two o'clock they falled asleep. That's the way I got away from them.	0:01
Stacey Scales	So the people that were were watching you fell asleep?	0:10
Willie Harrell	Yeah, and that's the way I got from there. Coming out of the gate, they had a gate and they had called something like cross tires across the gate. If you cross there in the car, they can [indistinct 00:00:28] you up because just you know just like you cross an old bridge?	0:13
Stacey Scales	Yes.	0:30
Willie Harrell	Bridge. But see I didn't have no car. I just stepped across there. You see? They had the fences up and the stuff on there that electrocute you. But see I was small enough, I got across there before and they were asleep, passed right on by the house there and hit that dirt road and got in the woods. I bet you I walked about five or six miles in the woods. The onliest way I could see, you see the little lightning bugs at night light up?	0:30
Stacey Scales	Yeah.	0:58
Willie Harrell	That's the only way I could see, man. And I was all, clothes was tore off where I was going through the woods and trees and couldn't see. It was tearing my clothes off until I got from there where I could catch this train.	0:58
Stacey Scales	So the only light you saw was those little bugs?	1:13
Willie Harrell	But yeah, man, I was ripe as a pear in a crop when I got here in Memphis. Didn't have nothing but what I had on. They were tore all off. Old pair of shoes, bare, there wasn't no socks or nothing on.	1:20
Stacey Scales	Were you afraid?	1:28
Willie Harrell	Yeah, I was scared until I got here. It took me about, shit, it was a year or two before I got back like I should, normal. Yeah. Because I didn't know nothing about Memphis then. I kind of found a job and they was taking me. My auntie was taking me around, trying to find a job when I come here in Memphis because I didn't know nothing about Memphis. I was a kid.	1:30
Stacey Scales	What did your aunt do?	1:57
Willie Harrell	She was doing work. She was working at Gridiron downtown when they had a place they called Gridiron downtown. See she was up here way before I left Mississippi, and she was working down there. I come here and she was taking me before she'd go to work to try to find a job. That's when I found a job working at Crosstown Storage, that was moving people's furnishings and stuff.	1:59
Stacey Scales	Right.	2:24
Willie Harrell	Mm-hmm.	2:24
Stacey Scales	Were there plenty of jobs for Blacks during that time?	2:26
Willie Harrell	No, it wasn't no plenty of jobs for no Black. It was for White, it wasn't for no Black. Just come here later years, that before Blacks could get a job. It was all White.	2:30
Stacey Scales	So what were the jobs for the White people and what were the jobs for the Blacks?	2:47
Willie Harrell	It was the same thing. But the White was getting more paid more than the Colored was, working along there side of the White. But you wouldn't be getting what they be getting. The pay they getting, you wouldn't be getting. You'd just be trying to make a living. Then that time, the stuff was like I told you, way cheaper than it is now. Shoot, you can take $4 or $5 and go to the store and buy enough groceries to last you a month or two, but you can't do it now. Now the stuff done got up there now. Yeah.	2:53
Stacey Scales	Do you remember at what point you felt as if you were a man, you had grew from a boy to being a man?	3:28
Willie Harrell	Yeah. I felt when I got a little older than what I did. I felt from a man from a boyhood when I got where I could manage and take care of myself. Sure did. Yeah.	3:37
Stacey Scales	So was that when you got here?	3:50
Willie Harrell	Yeah. That was when I got here, but it took me about a couple of years though before I could get myself together. But see, realize I was man instead of boy, or when I was down there, it was just like in penitention or something. Couldn't go nowhere. Certain time to go somewhere, certain time to come in. Didn't have the freedom as I got now. That's right. That make a whole lot of difference.	3:51
Stacey Scales	Right.	4:17
Willie Harrell	Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.	4:24
Stacey Scales	Was there a Black barbershop here?	4:26
Willie Harrell	Barbershop?	4:29
Stacey Scales	Yeah. Who would cut your hair?	4:30
Willie Harrell	In the country, my granddaddy would cut it with clippers. You know what clippers is, them clippers?	4:33
Stacey Scales	By hand?	4:37
Willie Harrell	Hand clippers?	4:38
Stacey Scales	Yeah.	4:39
Willie Harrell	Yeah. My granddaddy would cut hair when I was a little kid coming up. I didn't know what a barbershop was until I come in. Wasn't no barbershop in no Mississippi there. They cut hair with the scissor and the clippers, hand clippers and scissors.	4:39
Stacey Scales	Okay.	4:53
Willie Harrell	Uh-huh. And for shaving, you know them old shaving brace? Do you know what them is?	4:53
Stacey Scales	No. What's that?	5:06
Willie Harrell	Do you ever see one? A shaving bracelet, you take soap.	5:06
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah.	5:10
Willie Harrell	And lather your face with it. I seen them in the drugstore down here now. I would say, I'm going to get me a old timey, back then when I was a kid.	5:11
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah.	5:19
Willie Harrell	Uh-huh. Yeah. No. There wasn't no barbershop in—	5:19
Stacey Scales	What about when you got to Memphis? What barbershop did you go to?	5:26
Willie Harrell	When I got Memphis, I just went to any Barbershop.	5:31
Stacey Scales	Ames?	5:31
Willie Harrell	I just went to any, and I said any barbershop. I didn't have no certain barbershop to go to when I first come here. I can't remember the first barbershop I went to when I come in. Only one now I know, onliest one I go to now is right there on Collin there. But when I first come here, I can't remember down there on Beale somewhere. It ain't down there now, on Beale down there. It ain't down there now.	5:36
Stacey Scales	Was it a Black shop?	6:01
Willie Harrell	Yeah. It was Black. It was Black. That's the only one I know anything about, a Black barber shop when I come in. Sure was.	6:01
Stacey Scales	Did you join any clubs or anything like that?	6:16
Willie Harrell	No. Didn't know what they was. No clubs and didn't know what no club was in no Mississippi, didn't have no club for no Colored in Mississippi. Clubs was all White, wasn't none that was down in there there. When I come up, wasn't no club.	6:18
Stacey Scales	So Blacks wouldn't have any type of entertainment?	6:37
Willie Harrell	No, entertainment in the field, working.	6:42
Stacey Scales	You never sang or had no music?	6:44
Willie Harrell	No. We never sang, nothing but them old juke boxes. You might go to the grocery store, they had them old jukeboxes in there, you know?	6:49
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah.	6:55
Willie Harrell	Uh-huh. I don't even know where no singing was or going out singing at no club. Wasn't nothing like that in no Mississippi.	6:56
Stacey Scales	So at night, you all wouldn't sing or anything like that or—?	7:05
Willie Harrell	Sing at home in the bed or sing around the fireplace somewhere at home. No, you ain't go out nowhere no singing. They didn't have nothing where you go out and do no singing or nothing like that. Mm-mm. No, sure wasn't.	7:09
Stacey Scales	Would they treat the women like the men on the plantation?	7:30
Willie Harrell	Not as bad.	7:33
Stacey Scales	No?	7:35
Willie Harrell	No, not as bad. But they treat them rough enough, but not as bad as they did men, because women always washing and ironing for them. They always have them washing and ironing for them.	7:37
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	7:51
Willie Harrell	We men always have to be working on the farms or something. Mm-hmm.	7:51
Stacey Scales	Did they call you by your first name or what did they call you?	7:59
Willie Harrell	They always called me son or Harold. That's all they ever knowed my name. They call me Harold or son. That's where they used to call me when I was coming up. That's all they ever called me, son and Harold.	8:01
Stacey Scales	The older people, would they call them by their first name?	8:19
Willie Harrell	Call them Quitman or Whitman or something like that or uncle like that. Call them uncle.	8:25
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	8:27
Willie Harrell	Yeah. Them old White folk called the older people uncle or aunties, uncles or aunties. Women's aunties and old men are uncles. That's what they would call them.	8:29
Stacey Scales	How did people feel about them calling them by [indistinct 00:08:45]?	8:41
Willie Harrell	They had to take it. They feel just good about it. Wasn't nothing they could do. There wasn't nothing they could do. They had to feel good over it or there nothing they could do about it but take it. That's right. That's all.	8:45
Stacey Scales	How would people get news on the plantation?	9:08
Willie Harrell	The news about what?	9:12
Stacey Scales	About something happening?	9:13
Willie Harrell	On the radio.	9:14
Stacey Scales	On the radio?	9:14
Willie Harrell	Yeah.	9:17
Stacey Scales	So they had the—	9:18
Willie Harrell	Record. We had an old radio. You ever seen them old record player what—	9:20
Stacey Scales	Yes, sir.	9:25
Willie Harrell	The old time radio. That's the only way you got news.	9:26
Stacey Scales	Okay.	9:32
Willie Harrell	Didn't know what no TV and telephone was then, that day, then. No Black had nothing like that. It's all White.	9:33
Stacey Scales	When is the first time you saw—	9:41
Willie Harrell	TV?	9:43
Stacey Scales	Yeah.	9:45
Willie Harrell	When I come to Memphis. Then I didn't know what it was. The telephone, when I first come here to Memphis, we don't have nothing like that when I was coming up. There ain't no telephones or no TV or nothing like that. I can't remember if they had no TV in Mississippi then. I can't remember no telephone was in Mississippi then. The White had it that I can remember, but I didn't remember no TV. And we used have an old record player, one that just turned right here. It had a needle in it, a needle.	9:45
Stacey Scales	Yes.	10:24
Willie Harrell	Uh-huh. I can remember that.	10:27
Stacey Scales	So what songs do you remember? Do you remember any of the songs you listened to?	10:30
Willie Harrell	Church song. I can't remember now. Church song. Put me into mind [indistinct 00:10:39] last Sunday. I heard, what you call? Sang one of them old church song on the TV. I was getting ready last Sunday morning, I can't think of it now. That's when I was boy going to church there, called myself at the time on the morning [indistinct 00:10:56] religion. I was baptized in the pool where the horses and mules were drinking water on the plantation. That's what I was baptized there. The horses was on one side and we was on the other side, preachers baptizing me and my cousin over there.	10:32
Stacey Scales	So was it a Black preacher?	11:16
Willie Harrell	Yeah.	11:18
Stacey Scales	They was part of the people that worked there?	11:19
Willie Harrell	Yeah. Down on the plantation. Yeah, but the preachers, they didn't stay there then. They was up here in different places, West Point, Mississippi, Starwood, Mississippi. But they come there to the country, carry on revival at the church and they baptized in a pool then. They didn't baptize in the church like they do now. I was baptized in a pond where the horses, cows drank out. Snakes and bullfrogs in there.	11:21
Stacey Scales	Oh, yeah?	11:53
Willie Harrell	Yeah. That's what I was baptized in.	11:59
Stacey Scales	Yeah.	12:00
Willie Harrell	Yeah. Sure was. Ain't like it is now. Baptize pools in the church. That was a old [indistinct 00:12:05] That was back there old times there, way back there.	12:00
Stacey Scales	So did a lot of people get together for your baptism?	12:11
Willie Harrell	Oh, man. Yeah. Used to, like a dirt road like this, it be full of them, going down to the pool, be baptized. There's a lot of preachers and a lot of members and they always be full, man. Be marching to the pool, to have baptized. Then after you change clothes, you go back to the church, get them wet clothes off. You go back to church. Yeah.	12:15
Stacey Scales	Now did people say things about slavery?	12:45
Willie Harrell	Then?	12:55
Stacey Scales	Yes.	12:55
Willie Harrell	Yeah.	12:55
Stacey Scales	Like what?	12:55
Willie Harrell	It was slavery then. It was slavery times then.	12:56
Stacey Scales	About old times. Did they talk about those times? Like your grandparents?	13:00
Willie Harrell	Yeah, they used to talk about it. My granddaddy used to tell us a lot of things we didn't know before they died. Old slavery time and stuff. They used to tell us about it. I looked at that on the TV and it was just like it was when I was coming up like they was back in that old picture you see on the TV. Boy, they'd tie them up at whoop them. You remember seeing—	13:05
Stacey Scales	Roots?	13:29
Willie Harrell	Roots?	13:29
Stacey Scales	Yeah.	13:29
Willie Harrell	Yeah, Roots put them in the mind. That's the way they did us in Mississippi. That's right. Wasn't no difference in it. Wasn't no difference in it. Sure wasn't.	13:30
Stacey Scales	Would they sell you to other people?	13:35
Willie Harrell	No, they wouldn't sell you to nobody. They just—like the other men on the plantation, if you didn't want to stay with them, if you owe them something, this honky would come over here and buy you from this man and you go and live with him and work the crop there a year.	13:46
Stacey Scales	Oh.	14:04
Willie Harrell	That's the way they did. That's the way they did.	14:04
Stacey Scales	Did people get separated from their families?	14:08
Willie Harrell	Yes, some of them did. Yeah. Some of them got separated because some be on one plantation, some be on the other, and they just get separated from them.	14:09
Stacey Scales	Husband and wives?	14:19
Willie Harrell	Yeah. Husband and wives, sure did. Yes, sir. Oh yeah, sometime I sit up in there, I get to thinking about that. Then when the Roots come on, that time they had it on, I cut it off. I couldn't stand to look at it because I went through some of it. I just flipped it off, because putting me in a memory of what I used to go through when I was coming up. I couldn't stand the [indistinct 00:14:51] Yeah.	14:20
Stacey Scales	Do you think a lot has changed?	14:58
Willie Harrell	Yeah, it's a lot done changed now. It is a whole lot [indistinct 00:14:59] change now since it was when I was coming up. Sure is. Yeah.	14:59
Stacey Scales	Were your people always in Mississippi?	14:59
Willie Harrell	Always in Mississippi. Yeah, always in Mississippi. Sure was.	14:59
Stacey Scales	Did they ever want to travel or [indistinct 00:15:32]	15:00
Willie Harrell	Didn't have no way to travel. Didn't have nothing to travel, no money. No Colored didn't travel then, [indistinct 00:15:38] travel White. They never did travel then because they didn't have nothing to travel with. No money or nothing. Like you take a vacation, you never had no vacation, like to go out of town to see your peoples or something like that.	15:32
Stacey Scales	Right.	15:52
Willie Harrell	No, didn't have no money. Had to stay there and work all the time. That's right.	15:54
Stacey Scales	Were there any bad sections growing up, where people were known to have a bad character?	16:04
Willie Harrell	Like what, fighting or something?	16:11
Stacey Scales	Yeah.	16:13
Willie Harrell	Yeah, it was a lot of that happened too. It was bad like that. It wasn't as bad as it is now. Things wasn't like it is then now. When I was coming up then, you could sleep out out there on your porch or out there in the yard. But now you can't do it. Nobody never would bother you. But now these days, you can't hard sit on your porch. Drive-by shooting, [indistinct 00:16:38] around. But then, them days, you could sleep out on the porch if mosquitoes didn't eat you up. There wasn't nobody bother you, but you couldn't do it now	16:19
Stacey Scales	Did they have the Masons and the Eastern Stars the organizations?	16:49
Willie Harrell	Not as I remember. I can't remember. They had nothing like that in the country. They just had that since I've been here. That's all I'm saying I can remember. I don't remember no Mason or Eastern Star, nothing like that when I was in the country. I didn't hear tell of it since I come here.	16:58
Stacey Scales	Yeah.	17:08
Willie Harrell	Yeah, but my organization I belong to is over here on Trigg, Sunlight.	17:08
Stacey Scales	Sunlight?	17:08
Willie Harrell	Yeah. Sunlight on Trigg.	17:25
Stacey Scales	Okay.	17:30
Willie Harrell	I joined it when it wasn't but 25 cents. Yeah, didn't have nothing like that when I come up in the country.	17:30
Stacey Scales	What type of things did you all do? [indistinct 00:17:41]	17:36
Willie Harrell	Oh, we used to have different things over there. Different things, eating and stuff like that.	17:36
Stacey Scales	Did women have their own groups?	17:52
Willie Harrell	Women had their own Eastern Star, their groups. They largely down here on Beale.	17:54
Stacey Scales	On Beale Street?	17:58
Willie Harrell	Yeah. Eastern Women Eastern Star, yeah.	17:58
Stacey Scales	Did people ever talk about Africa during those times?	18:14
Willie Harrell	Yeah, I had heard a few of them talking about Africa then. Old as African country, I heard them talk about a little of it then. Not much as they talk about it now when I was coming up.	18:19
Stacey Scales	What would they say?	18:23
Willie Harrell	They was just talking about it. You said that you go over there to Africa, Colored people over in there. That's all I ever hear of it [indistinct 00:18:31]	18:26
Stacey Scales	Did people ever talk about trying to go back?	18:30
Willie Harrell	No. They just talking about sending people from here over there to Africa.	18:30
Stacey Scales	Oh, okay.	18:31
Willie Harrell	Yeah. That's when it was in the country. Yeah, that's what they always talking about. Colored belongs in Africa. That's their state, whatever you call it, in Africa. Yeah, don't belong over here and all of that. Yeah.	18:44
Stacey Scales	Did you all have a Ku Klux Klan down there?	19:05
Willie Harrell	Yeah. They had Ku Klux Klan in Mississippi. Sure was. Them White. Yeah, they had that in Mississippi down there. Sure was.	19:13
Stacey Scales	Did you ever see them?	19:14
Willie Harrell	No, I never seen them, but I hear tell of them. I never did see him but I always hear tell of them. Ku Klux Klan down there. I never did see them. I always hear them talk about them.	19:19
Stacey Scales	Were there ever times where people had to help someone run away?	19:33
Willie Harrell	Yeah, there was some people that time, they had to help them run away. Because a lot of people had to help people run away from down there.	19:42
Stacey Scales	How would they help?	19:50
Willie Harrell	Just help them get away from there at night. That's the only way you can get away from there, at night. You couldn't get away from there in the daytime, broad-on daytime, at night. They'd have it set up, how they get you away from there at night.	19:51
Stacey Scales	Oh yeah?	20:03
Willie Harrell	Sure was.	20:07
Stacey Scales	Could you give me an example?	20:07
Willie Harrell	Just like take the plantation and you'd have to go so far and they'd be waiting on you in the car and get you away from there.	20:09
Stacey Scales	Yeah?	20:17
Willie Harrell	That's the onliest way. When they sleep, just like I tell you when I left there.	20:19
Stacey Scales	Right.	20:22
Willie Harrell	Be late at night when they sleep. You can tell then, on the plantation, you can tell when they go to sleep because the lights go out. When they put them lights out, you know they gone on the bed then. That's the way you can get away from there at night. You couldn't get away from there in daytime because they always watching. You couldn't get away no broad-on daytime. You could get away from there at night.	20:24
Stacey Scales	So you watched the lights the night?	20:44
Willie Harrell	Yeah, I watched the lights at night when they go out. I set up all night to wait till they go to sleep to get away from there. That's the only way I could get away. Couldn't get away in the broad-on daytime because too many watching you. Yeah, I got away from that when everything was inside, gone to sleep.	20:47
Willie Harrell	That's when I made my getaway. I mean, I got away. I ain't been back down there but once since I left from there and I'm 68 years old and I been back last year and I was scared then. I went out there then because my sister was sick. I was scared then. I spent the night, I didn't sleep the whole night I was down there because I was scared. It was still in me. See? Same place it was when they did all that they did to me. I couldn't sleep, but it wasn't like it in now, but it just still was in me.	21:08
Stacey Scales	When did you make the decision to leave?	21:42
Willie Harrell	I just made the decision to leave when they got tough on me.	21:46
Stacey Scales	How tough?	21:50
Willie Harrell	Just got tougher, wasn't nothing I could do. I couldn't get nowhere. Just like I'm in prison or something. Watching you, everywhere you [indistinct 00:22:00]. Couldn't go nowhere. I had to stay there and get them cows and mules up and feed them. 500 and something cows and mules every day out of the week. You didn't have a chance to go nowhere. You couldn't go and visit nobody, your friends or nothing. You had to stay right there. So I got tired and made up my mind to get on away from there and I got away. Anything can get tired. I got tired and got on away from there. That's what I did. Couldn't handle it no more. If I stayed on there, probably been dead by now. Yeah.	21:51
Stacey Scales	So you left by yourself?	22:44
Willie Harrell	Yeah, I left by myself. I left some of my people down there. For self and God, for us all. I was looking out for myself. They had to take care of theirself.	22:46
Stacey Scales	Did any of them leave after you got here?	22:58
Willie Harrell	Yeah, plenty of them left that's right here in Memphis since I left from down there.	22:58
Stacey Scales	Did they run away like you?	23:10
Willie Harrell	Yeah, they did. Only [indistinct 00:23:13] my sister, she still down there and you couldn't get a bulldozer to push her away from down there. She likes that. Last time I was down there. She won't—	23:11
Stacey Scales	How long did she work for those people?	23:23
Willie Harrell	Oh, she worked for them people. She was small too. She worked for them people, I don't know how long. Now she works at a hospital down there.	23:25
Stacey Scales	Okay.	23:33
Willie Harrell	She works at a hospital and she got her own house. Now she's married and have a man. They got their own home, automobiles and everything. [indistinct 00:23:44] when I coming up, didn't no [indistinct 00:23:47] Colored had no automobile and buying no homes down there. Nothing but White. She stayed on down there.	23:33
Stacey Scales	Right.	23:54
Willie Harrell	And I left. I was looking out for myself. If she wanted to stay down there and take it, that was her business. But I couldn't take no more of it. Got tired of it.	23:56
Stacey Scales	Right.	24:06
Willie Harrell	Yeah, I had to get and I got too. Yeah. Yeah.	24:09
Stacey Scales	Well, I don't have any more questions. If there's anything you'd like to add?	24:10
Willie Harrell	That's about the onliest thing I can remember. I could think of a lot of things, but it'd be sitting up by myself, thinking a lot of things, how I've been misused and everything, man. I could think of that. Sometimes it gets [indistinct 00:24:34] to me.	24:20
Stacey Scales	Right.	24:34
Willie Harrell	How I come up, but the Lord blessed me. Shoot, I know I had a lot of my friends, man, come right on up with me and they dead and gone. I'm still here. Like I said, blessed to be 68 years old, for the times and how I come up. I come up the hard way, Mister. People got it made now. How I come up, shoot. You see me sitting on this porch, but I have worked in my days. I'm telling you, I have worked in my days and that's when I said, the Lord blessed me to retire. I'm going to sit here and serve him and enjoy it.	24:37
Stacey Scales	Right.	25:13
Willie Harrell	That's the truth. Oh, yep.	25:13
Stacey Scales	Okay. Thank you.	25:13
Willie Harrell	Yeah, you welcome.	25:18

Item Info

Title:

Willie Harrell interview recording, 1995 June 29

Date:

June 29, 1995

Creator:

Harrell, Willie

Contributor:

Scales, Mausiki Stacey

Description:

Name: Willie Harrell; Date of birth: 1927-04-29; Place of birth: Clay Co., MS; Occupation(s): agriculture; sharecropper; laborer; Residence: Memphis, TN
Informant ID: 887; Interviewed by: Stacey Scales.

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Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-1999

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Related Resources:

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Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

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Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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Interview number: 559
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behindtheveil
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e5997877-b6cc-46ed-86ae-b374789b1086

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Willie Harrell interview recording, 1995 June 29

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Item Info

1. Willie Harrell administrative file, 1995

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Willie Harrell interview recording, 1995 June 29

Transcript

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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