Mamie Shipman interview recording, 1993 June 14
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| Chris Stewart | — documentary studies. Can I just ask you to state your name and address for the mic level? | 0:02 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mami Hearnes Shipman 1410 August Street, Charlotte, North Carolina, 28216. | 0:13 |
| Chris Stewart | That looks like it's doing just fine. The Center for Documentary Studies is affiliated with Duke University, but they're, like I said, they're enlisting students from UNC and from North Carolina Central to work on the project. It's very collaborative in a lot of different ways. | 0:28 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. | 0:57 |
| Chris Stewart | Let me tell you just a little bit more about this so that you have a sense of what you're participating in. This is a five year long project that is funded by the National Endowment for the Humanities and the Ford Foundation. And what the project's purpose is to collect oral histories, like the letter said, from African Americans throughout the South during the next three summers. We'll be collecting just in North Carolina this summer, and Charlotte is in fact the first place that we've come to. We'll also be going to Northeastern North Carolina to North Hampton, Edgecombe, and Nash Counties up there in the northeastern part of the state. We'll also be traveling to Wilmington and to New Bern in the Craven County area. And we're spending two weeks in each community in North Carolina. We're hoping to collect upwards of 500 interviews just this summer. | 0:58 |
| Chris Stewart | Next summer we're going to go out into four other states in the south and we're going to go with 10 students instead of the six that we have this summer. And we're going to continue to collect oral histories. And like I said before, the kinds of things that we're talking about or people are talking about, are people's everyday lives, neighborhoods, communities, institutions. What we're really interested in uncovering is the kinds of rich full lives that people led during the segregated period. | 2:12 |
| Chris Stewart | We're all historians, all graduate students in history, and we read a lot about the restrictions of segregation. We read a lot about Jim Crow laws, but very rarely do we have books or do we read about the ways in which African Americans and the Black community lived within those. Oftentimes the story is told from the white perspective. So we're collecting sources, we're collecting oral history so that we can attempt to tell a different story. We're hoping to collect 3,000 interviews by the time the project is up, and we're going to put them all in a big collection to be housed at the Duke University Archives. All of the interviews will be located there. | 2:57 |
| Chris Stewart | And then Duke University is going to make copies of the interviews and the transcripts and send to each community, basically a collection for each community to have to use in whatever way they want to. So Charlotte will be receiving the Charlotte collection of interviews, and like I said, we've done over 50 thus far. We're hoping to do about a hundred by the time we leave. The Charlotte community will receive a hundred tapes and transcripts to use however. [indistinct 00:04:38] is associated with the African American Coalition, the Coalition of African American Research Associates. And we know that they're interested in writing something or doing some sort of documentary study about Second Ward or about the Black communities in Charlotte. So those will be available for the community to use however they see fit. | 3:59 |
| Mamie Shipman | Have you come across a pictorial album of the Negro in the South since you've been here? | 4:59 |
| Chris Stewart | The— | 5:07 |
| Mamie Shipman | Negro in the South? | 5:08 |
| Chris Stewart | Is that the name? | 5:11 |
| Mamie Shipman | I think that's the title of it. | 5:11 |
| Chris Stewart | Okay. No. | 5:13 |
| Mamie Shipman | They say they have copies of it in each one of the branch libraries. | 5:14 |
| Chris Stewart | Really? | 5:18 |
| Mamie Shipman | And it's more pictorial. You haven't met a Mrs. Randolph, have you? | 5:19 |
| Chris Stewart | In fact, one of my colleagues — Elizabeth Randolph? | 5:25 |
| Mamie Shipman | She edited it. | 5:31 |
| Chris Stewart | I'm sure that Rhonda has talked to her about that. Yeah. | 5:33 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm—hmm. | 5:36 |
| Chris Stewart | And in fact, we spent a little bit of time talking to somebody at the library and I don't know if it's — Is it there? It's a book? | 5:37 |
| Mamie Shipman | A friend of mine had a copy, and I think it was Libby that I was asking where you purchase them. She said at the branch library. | 5:50 |
| Chris Stewart | Really? Well, I'm sure Rhonda's talked to her about it. I'm not sure. | 5:59 |
| Mamie Shipman | And it's more pictorial than literary. | 6:04 |
| Chris Stewart | Right. Right. | 6:09 |
| Mamie Shipman | But it's a nice collection. | 6:09 |
| Chris Stewart | Is it? | 6:10 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm—hmm. | 6:11 |
| Chris Stewart | I'll have to — When was it published? | 6:11 |
| Mamie Shipman | It must have been here recently. | 6:15 |
| Chris Stewart | I know there's an African American album that came out that that was the name of the book. | 6:18 |
| Mamie Shipman | That may be the same one. | 6:27 |
| Chris Stewart | Really? | 6:28 |
| Mamie Shipman | But see, it's more or less— | 6:29 |
| Chris Stewart | Of just showing the [indistinct 00:06:35] | 6:35 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes. Mm—hmm. | 6:35 |
| Chris Stewart | Yeah, I've seen that. | 6:35 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. Yeah. Because it's more or less an album. Mm—hmm. | 6:35 |
| Chris Stewart | Right. Right, right. It's a beautiful collection. | 6:35 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. | 6:39 |
| Chris Stewart | Absolutely. And it's fun for us because as students we got to see the book in Durham and in Chapel Hill in our studies. | 6:40 |
| Mamie Shipman | Oh sure enough. | 6:50 |
| Chris Stewart | And then we get to come here and meet many of the people who were in that collection, so that's been really nice for us. | 6:51 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes, indeed. It was a nice collection because we were kind of late gathering history for the libraries and whatnot. | 6:59 |
| Chris Stewart | Right. | 7:12 |
| Mamie Shipman | You need it. | 7:15 |
| Chris Stewart | Oh, well, this is the whole purpose of our project. We are looking for ways to use these oral histories in our teaching because we really need to start using the perspective of African Americans in our teaching. All of us who are working on the project, as well as all the professors, are really excited about the possibility of using oral histories, tapes of people that we talk to in our classrooms because it's such a wonderful way for students. It's a real exciting way for students to learn about history. | 7:15 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes. And make things more realistic by having the pictures accompanying. | 7:58 |
| Chris Stewart | Right. | 8:07 |
| Mamie Shipman | Pictures is worth a thousand words, isn't it? | 8:08 |
| Chris Stewart | You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. | 8:10 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes, indeed. | 8:12 |
| Chris Stewart | So do you have any questions about— | 8:14 |
| Mamie Shipman | No, I don't think so. | 8:17 |
| Chris Stewart | Well, okay. Then we can start the interview if you're ready. | 8:20 |
| Mamie Shipman | I suppose I'm ready. I'm a jittery person. This is— | 8:26 |
| Chris Stewart | Well, if there are any questions that you feel uncomfortable asking, then you tell. I'll move on. | 8:32 |
| Mamie Shipman | No. It's getting the words out. | 8:36 |
| Chris Stewart | Oh. Well, in fact, however you want to communicate. This is wonderful with us. I mean, people communicate in different ways and we understand. | 8:40 |
| Mamie Shipman | I've gotten to that stage where the mind plays tricks on you. You'll be there one of these days. | 8:52 |
| Chris Stewart | Oh, I think I'm there sometimes right now, to be frank with you. I forgot my tape recorder when I walked out, and I thought, "Oh my goodness. I have to go back and find my tape recorder." Well, I'd like to start by asking you if you've lived in Charlotte all your life. | 9:03 |
| Mamie Shipman | I came to Charlotte when I was three months old, and I've been here ever since. | 9:18 |
| Chris Stewart | Where did your family come from? | 9:24 |
| Mamie Shipman | I was born in Jacksonville, Florida. | 9:25 |
| Chris Stewart | Jacksonville, Florida. | 9:26 |
| Mamie Shipman | And my mother's home was here. She was born here, and my father separated. And we came here to live with her father. | 9:29 |
| Chris Stewart | And your father stayed in Jacksonville? | 9:46 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes. | 9:48 |
| Chris Stewart | What kind of work did your father do? | 9:49 |
| Mamie Shipman | Even now, by being three months old, there's very little I know about actual contact with him, but he was working at the post office or the postal system some way. | 9:52 |
| Chris Stewart | So when you moved to Charlotte, did you not see him again? | 10:07 |
| Mamie Shipman | Not until I was around about — I think I was around about eight or nine years old, just for a short visit he came down. But my mother was born here, and we lived with — Her father had a hotel at that time upon 4th Street, and we lived with him until he passed. | 10:11 |
| Chris Stewart | What was— | 10:37 |
| Mamie Shipman | He worked at the post office. He was a custodian there in post office, which wasn't too far from where we were living. They weren't any Blacks in that block, well, in that area where we were. You had to move over a little further for residential Black. | 10:38 |
| Chris Stewart | When you lived in the hotel, there weren't any blacks in that area? | 10:57 |
| Mamie Shipman | And I said he, my grandfather, had the hotel. No, but see the station was nearby at that time. People coming into the city. | 11:02 |
| Chris Stewart | The train station? | 11:14 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. It used to be not too far away from where we were, and the contact you made had a lot to do with it. | 11:15 |
| Chris Stewart | What was the name of the hotel that your grandfather owned. Do you remember? | 11:27 |
| Mamie Shipman | Goods Hotel, G-O-O-D. | 11:30 |
| Chris Stewart | Goods? | 11:32 |
| Mamie Shipman | Goods Hotel. G-O-O-D, I think. I think Mama left that E off of Good. | 11:33 |
| Chris Stewart | How long did you live there? | 11:41 |
| Mamie Shipman | I lived there until I was around about third grade, and then the place was sold out the state. And we lived at the church parsonage. It was called Simpson Chapel, and we got arrangements there to stay until we found a place to locate. | 11:44 |
| Chris Stewart | So the hotel was sold when your grandfather died? | 12:15 |
| Mamie Shipman | Ma'am, what did you ask? | 12:21 |
| Chris Stewart | The hotel was sold with the estate when your grandfather died? | 12:23 |
| Mamie Shipman | Ohm yes. Yes. Mm—hmm. See there were three children, and it was sold between three children. | 12:30 |
| Chris Stewart | I see. | 12:32 |
| Mamie Shipman | In fact, his son was the first male postman in Charlotte, my grandfather's son, but he left here in those early years and went to Cleveland, Ohio. | 12:35 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you recall who used to stay at the hotel when you were there? | 12:52 |
| Mamie Shipman | The Fisk singers came there. I remember that better than I remember anything. | 12:56 |
| Chris Stewart | What do you remember about the singers? | 13:01 |
| Mamie Shipman | You know they were a outstanding choral group from Nashville, Tennessee. | 13:04 |
| Chris Stewart | What? Do you recall the name? | 13:09 |
| Mamie Shipman | No. See, I was around about four years old when grandpa died. That was before he passed. But I remember them coming there. | 13:11 |
| Chris Stewart | What do you remember about them? Why do they stick in your mind? | 13:26 |
| Mamie Shipman | Well, it was a group of people, and they were having a program somewhere. They were outstanding concert artists at that time. | 13:31 |
| Chris Stewart | What kind of music? Did they sing, or did they— | 13:42 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah, they sang this, and it was more — It wasn't like this music we have today. It's like we don't have today. It was mostly classical and whatnot. | 13:44 |
| Chris Stewart | I'm thinking of the Norfolk Singers. | 14:02 |
| Mamie Shipman | Fisk. | 14:05 |
| Chris Stewart | Oh, was it the Fisk Group? | 14:07 |
| Mamie Shipman | Have you heard of Fisk University? | 14:10 |
| Chris Stewart | Sure. And I've heard of the Fisk University Singers. | 14:12 |
| Mamie Shipman | I had a card. Somebody had a card, and it had the Fisk Singers on that at Christmas time. And I said I was going to put that card up. Now if I put it up, I don't know where it is. But they were outstanding singers at that time.,And they moved about among the colleges and whatnot because they were from Fisk University. Yeah. | 14:14 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you remember any other people that you — Do you remember any other people who would stay at the hotel that you recall? | 14:39 |
| Mamie Shipman | Not right. I remember after, but I don't remember the name even after I remember the person. But after my brother — I had an invalid brother, after he passed, my mother went to New York for a little [indistinct 00:15:07]. He and my grandfather passed week apart, and she went to New York and somebody came and stayed with us while she was gone. And one of the borders came in, and that was the first time I ever got to the theater. He took us to the theater, my sister and I. I had a brother too. There were four of us in. The two boys were older, but the oldest child was invalid. He died when he was around about 10. But my sister and I have been together all through the years. | 14:48 |
| Chris Stewart | When you say you went — one of the borders, took you to the theater? | 16:00 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. | 16:02 |
| Chris Stewart | What did you go to see? | 16:02 |
| Mamie Shipman | I don't know whether it was — What were those children that played together in the picture? See here's where the mind going to play trick— | 16:05 |
| Chris Stewart | Was it a movie picture? | 16:19 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. You remember the little fat boy? They show them sometime now. | 16:20 |
| Chris Stewart | Oh, sure. I do. Not like The Little Rascals. | 16:25 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. They're kind of like The Little Rascals. They were kind of like, on that order, but I don't think they were called The Little Rascals. | 16:29 |
| Chris Stewart | How long did your mother stay in New York with— | 16:43 |
| Mamie Shipman | Oh, she just stayed by the couple of weeks. To tell the truth, I don't know exactly how long, but I know that was my first time. And a friend of hers kept us while she was gone. And I thought it was so nice that she saw that we got somewhere. Ordinarily, she was, mother, was tied up with keeping house, being a boarding house and an invalid child there too. | 16:47 |
| Chris Stewart | So your mother basically kept the hotel for your grandparents? | 17:21 |
| Mamie Shipman | After we came home. | 17:27 |
| Chris Stewart | Was your grandmother alive? | 17:29 |
| Mamie Shipman | No, I don't know any grandparents except my grandfather. She passed before Mama married. | 17:30 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you recall any neighbors that you might have had around the hotel? | 17:40 |
| Mamie Shipman | There weren't too many around there. And the Stroops at a filling station, and Cochran and Ross, you wouldn't believe this, had a stable across the street with horses and hacks and whatnot. And the McKammers lived there. That was one of the white neighbors, McKammers. It was around by — [indistinct 00:18:32] had a bakery. They lived long there. And there was another lady stayed right next door that had a boarding house too. But I don't remember her name. I can see her face but I can't remember her name. | 17:54 |
| Chris Stewart | It sounds like you lived in almost a business section. Were here businesses— | 18:47 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah, it was right there between Poplar and Church. | 18:52 |
| Chris Stewart | Okay. | 18:58 |
| Mamie Shipman | You wouldn't have believed anybody was up there at that location at that time. In fact, I dare say many people who are living now know it was up there. Know that we were up there. But the old citizens knew. | 18:58 |
| Chris Stewart | Were you on the top part of a building or did you have a whole— | 19:16 |
| Mamie Shipman | It was a house, two—story house, two—story brick house upstairs and downstairs. And the rooms that you rented were upstairs for the most part. | 19:21 |
| Chris Stewart | How many rooms were there? Was it a big house? | 19:32 |
| Mamie Shipman | I can remember at least three bedrooms upstairs. At least three, and I know there must have been — I know there were two downstairs. Now that's excluding the dining room and the living room and whatnot. Those were bedrooms. | 19:36 |
| Chris Stewart | So did your mother prepare food and keep house for the boarders? | 19:55 |
| Mamie Shipman | For the most part, they just boarded there. | 20:00 |
| Chris Stewart | Oh, okay. | 20:03 |
| Mamie Shipman | When we came along. But before then, I think somebody had come in before she came there, after she got married and whatnot. | 20:04 |
| Chris Stewart | Did your mother marry again? | 20:17 |
| Mamie Shipman | No. | 20:18 |
| Chris Stewart | Okay. So you have your sister? | 20:19 |
| Mamie Shipman | I have her picture. | 20:24 |
| Chris Stewart | Of your mother? | 20:26 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm—hmm. | 20:27 |
| Chris Stewart | Maybe we can look at that after the interview. | 20:28 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. | 20:30 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you have it? It's not where you can't — Can you get at it? | 20:31 |
| Mamie Shipman | To tell the truth it's on the wall right now. Wait a minute, let me see. Right there. | 20:34 |
| Chris Stewart | But you see I'm a researcher. That's what I'm supposed to do. That's what we do for a living. | 20:52 |
| Mamie Shipman | I got the spot where they are. I don't even know where I put them. I had a book, and I believe when we was having a study on Negro history, somebody got that book and it had a lot of outstanding Blacks in it of way back yonder, because they had that before we left 4th Street, had that particular book. So it was early, but I don't know who I let have it. And I was going to get it out so I'd have it, but I didn't find it. All I found was a few Bibles with leaves crumbling up, so you know it was a religious home. | 20:58 |
| Chris Stewart | Sure, sure. I'd like to keep on talking about when you were growing up for a little bit. You said that you were very close to your sister. Do you remember what kinds of things you did in the neighborhood when you were living in the hotel? | 21:47 |
| Mamie Shipman | What? | 22:06 |
| Chris Stewart | What kinds of games you played, where you would play? | 22:06 |
| Mamie Shipman | Wasn't any neighbors right there nearby. So we did have friends down on [indistinct 00:22:24] Street and we visited. Mama would. The family would visit one another, but you didn't go out of the yard. You stayed in that yard. | 22:17 |
| Chris Stewart | So you and your sister played together a lot the time. | 22:35 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes, for the most part. But Mama always treated her as more mature, and I think she tried to keep me as her baby. And she was short. And here I was after I grew up towering over her and she talking about her baby. So I kid my sister all the time now about calling her son baby. I said he doesn't want to hear that. | 22:41 |
| Chris Stewart | So you moved to 8th Street? | 23:11 |
| Mamie Shipman | We moved to the parsonage down on Grim Street. | 23:14 |
| Chris Stewart | And what church? | 23:20 |
| Mamie Shipman | Simpson Chapel. At that time it was called Simpson Chapel. Is Simpson Gillespie now right there. | 23:22 |
| Chris Stewart | Right. | 23:28 |
| Mamie Shipman | But it was Simpson Chapel at that time. Then we moved to First Ward. | 23:29 |
| Chris Stewart | How long did you live at the chapel, the parsonage? | 23:35 |
| Mamie Shipman | Let's see, I was in third grade. It was just about a year, completing that school year. | 23:39 |
| Chris Stewart | So you went to the Episcopal school then through that year. | 23:46 |
| Mamie Shipman | Through that year. But that's a separate — I was going to the Episcopal school before I left 4th Street. They had kindergarten at that time. | 23:49 |
| Chris Stewart | What was the name of that Episcopal— | 24:00 |
| Mamie Shipman | St. Michael All Angels Episcopal, I think. | 24:02 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you remember anything about the school? Do you remember any of your teachers? | 24:06 |
| Mamie Shipman | Oh yes. And when I first started, the kindergarten, first and second grade were in the same room. All of you were in the same room. While one group, you would probably — Well being exposed sometime there. That was at the Episcopal school. And I moved from kindergarten to first grade in the middle of the year. | 24:12 |
| Chris Stewart | Oh, my. | 24:43 |
| Mamie Shipman | My aunt used to take time, and when she'd visit with that read at times. That helped. | 24:48 |
| Chris Stewart | Mm—hmm. Helped you to move from the— | 24:56 |
| Mamie Shipman | My sister and I caught up with one another in the fourth grade. She didn't get promoted in fourth grade and that threw her back with me. So we finished high school together. | 25:00 |
| Chris Stewart | [indistinct 00:25:17]. | 25:15 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm—hmm. | 25:16 |
| Chris Stewart | You mentioned your aunt. Did your aunt come to visit you very often? | 25:18 |
| Mamie Shipman | Stayed in touch. She didn't visit that much. | 25:21 |
| Chris Stewart | Did she live in Charlotte? | 25:24 |
| Mamie Shipman | No, she lived in Jacksonville. | 25:26 |
| Chris Stewart | I see. | 25:28 |
| Mamie Shipman | She lived in Jacksonville and Asbury Park, New Jersey with my uncle part of the time. We didn't have too many relatives there after my uncle left, who was the postman. And right now I'm the only one left out in the family. | 25:29 |
| Chris Stewart | Oh really? In Charlotte or— | 25:48 |
| Mamie Shipman | In Charlotte. But Aunt May died down in Jacksonville and I have a — My sister's in Washington. | 26:02 |
| Chris Stewart | Oh, I see. | 26:11 |
| Mamie Shipman | Now I have plenty of pictures of the grandchildren and whatnot. They had the unfortunate experience with the house catching on fire. But I was about to say, we, Susan and I, were in the same class from fourth grade on through 11th. And when we went to college, we went off the first year together. But it was too — That was during the Depression. Mama wasn't able to work out anything to try to get us back, so we went piecemeal. One would go and one would stay home. | 26:11 |
| Chris Stewart | What college? | 27:00 |
| Mamie Shipman | We went to Bennett. | 27:02 |
| Chris Stewart | Oh, okay. | 27:04 |
| Mamie Shipman | Okay. In Greensboro. | 27:04 |
| Chris Stewart | So who went first? | 27:10 |
| Mamie Shipman | She had. Both of us went together. Then both of us were out. No, both of us went together the first year. And Susie went back the second year. Both of us stayed out the next year. And we were out until around about — I think it was around about '38, '37, Susie went back. A friend of mamas encouraged her. She said, "Agnes, you send those girls back to school." She said, "Well Miss Leery, I just don't see how I do it." "Yes, you can." | 27:12 |
| Mamie Shipman | And she came home and talked with Susan and myself. Now she wasn't going to put no mortgage on that house. She's going to keep a roof over your head, try to. And so that's the first time she ever mortgaged that house so Susan could go back to school. It was arranged so when she got out, then she could help me because, see, she was one year ahead of me by going back that next year. So it worked out. And I retired after 39 years. That was a long time, when I didn't think I was going to even get through. | 27:55 |
| Chris Stewart | Really, really. | 28:40 |
| Mamie Shipman | Didn't think I was going to get through college. | 28:41 |
| Chris Stewart | What kind of work did your mother do after your grandfather died? | 28:45 |
| Mamie Shipman | Whatever she could get to do. Negros didn't have any opportunities hardly since she worked at the florist part of the time. But most of the time she worked up to Ivey's. | 28:52 |
| Chris Stewart | And up at Ivey's. | 29:04 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm—hmm. | 29:04 |
| Chris Stewart | In the department store? | 29:07 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. | 29:09 |
| Chris Stewart | What kind of work did she do there? | 29:09 |
| Mamie Shipman | She was in the fitting room, a maid more or less for the second floor. And the fitting room was on the second floor. | 29:12 |
| Chris Stewart | So she was trying to put you— | 29:23 |
| Mamie Shipman | But she had 20 years up there. That's where she stayed most of the time. | 29:26 |
| Chris Stewart | Did she do any other kinds of work on the side while she was working at Ivey's? | 29:29 |
| Mamie Shipman | No. Wasn't anything hardly to work in. If she could have managed, now, she would've made — She went to Barber—Scotia. | 29:34 |
| Chris Stewart | Oh, she did. | 29:45 |
| Mamie Shipman | That's what they call Scotia at that time, and she taught one year. This is before she married. She taught, I guess, it wasn't but one year. But she was secretary. She had a beautiful handwriting, and she could take minutes like no not what. But after you have children, you can't get to these opportunities as well. | 29:46 |
| Chris Stewart | You said that both you and your sister worked to try to help each other through too. What kind of work did you do? | 30:23 |
| Mamie Shipman | Anything I could get to do. | 30:31 |
| Chris Stewart | You give me any examples of— | 30:31 |
| Mamie Shipman | I was maid at one of the high schools one year. | 30:34 |
| Chris Stewart | Which high school? | 30:38 |
| Mamie Shipman | It was Harding at that time. | 30:40 |
| Chris Stewart | Okay. | 30:40 |
| Mamie Shipman | Then I did domestic work, where you wouldn't get anything for that hardly. In fact, I wasn't getting anything to help with. But when Susie got out, see, she got a position in a school teaching. | 30:42 |
| Chris Stewart | What school? | 31:04 |
| Mamie Shipman | Huh? | 31:05 |
| Chris Stewart | What school? | 31:05 |
| Mamie Shipman | She was at Plato Price a long time. | 31:06 |
| Chris Stewart | Okay. | 31:09 |
| Mamie Shipman | That's out in the county. I don't know whether they've torn Plato Price down. Seem to me like they made it a book depository. I can't tell you what's happened to around Charlotte because things have really changed from one thing to the other. | 31:09 |
| Chris Stewart | Plato, what was the name of the school? | 31:27 |
| Mamie Shipman | Plato Price. | 31:29 |
| Chris Stewart | Plato Price. | 31:29 |
| Mamie Shipman | That's where Susan worked, home ec. She was in home ec. And she paid my board every month, and I worked my tuition and that's how I got through there. | 31:33 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you remember what kind of wages you received while you were working at the high school or as a domestic worker? | 31:49 |
| Mamie Shipman | I think it was about $25 a month was— | 31:56 |
| Chris Stewart | At the high school? | 32:00 |
| Mamie Shipman | That maid job. I don't think it was 25, to tell the truth. It's been so long ago. Because I know I used to do domestic work and get 50 and 75 cents. | 32:02 |
| Chris Stewart | A day? | 32:14 |
| Mamie Shipman | Now you know that they didn't need to make it no shorter than that. There weren't too many job opportunities around Charlotte for a while unless the Blacks themselves made available business opportunities. Like you have your doctors, your ministers. There weren't any opportunities. Now you had some barbers, and sometime they catered mostly to white. Some of them did. Mr. Tate did I know. And same thing happened for some of that dressmaking stuff. There used to be some good seamstresses who would go out to the families to sew in their homes. | 32:16 |
| Chris Stewart | So most of the jobs were generated by Black—owned businesses for people in the Black community? | 33:15 |
| Mamie Shipman | No. I can't say most of them, but those were the only ones you could look to with any enthusiasm. You know what I mean? | 33:22 |
| Chris Stewart | Sure, sure. What do you recall about the house that you lived in on 8th Street when you lived there? What did the house look like? There's a picture of it here. How big was it? | 33:33 |
| Mamie Shipman | I think it was around about six rooms. | 33:49 |
| Chris Stewart | Wow. | 33:51 |
| Mamie Shipman | It wasn't one of those shotgun houses, if that's what— | 33:54 |
| Chris Stewart | No, I just wanted to know what you remember about it. What did the inside look like? What— | 33:57 |
| Mamie Shipman | Well, mama liked that community over there because she had a lot of friends over there. I used to kid her. She said she bought that house because of the community, and I said that's all she got was community because it wasn't well built at all. It was always something. | 34:07 |
| Chris Stewart | Did you [indistinct 00:34:32]. | 34:28 |
| Mamie Shipman | But there were the two bedrooms, living room, dining room, kitchen and bath. | 34:31 |
| Chris Stewart | Were you always fixing something in the house? | 34:37 |
| Mamie Shipman | Where you? | 34:42 |
| Chris Stewart | Was there always something to fix in the house? | 34:43 |
| Mamie Shipman | Oh yeah. Yeah. Mm—hmm. | 34:45 |
| Chris Stewart | Who would you get to fix if you didn't have — fix things if you didn't have a man around the house? | 34:47 |
| Mamie Shipman | You try to find somebody, try to find somebody to fix things for you, but so often they take advantage of you. That's what mama used her money first for was to get a house that she got from my grandfather's estate. But see, people take advantage of you when it comes to — I remember one experience where the man was fixing the fence. They used to have fences around the yard. And he told neighbor — The neighbors were saying something about fence. He told Nick, "She got plenty of money. Let her pay for it." I mean, that kind of stuff. It's just ridiculous and whatnot. Instead of going on to do things like they're supposed to be done. | 34:53 |
| Chris Stewart | What do you recall about that neighborhood? Do you recall what it looked like, who your neighbors were? | 35:56 |
| Mamie Shipman | It's right over there. It's pretty much the same. See, that's over there where the Afro—American, that's the neighborhood I came from. But they didn't have all those apartments there. The Wilkerson apartment was the first large apartment. Bishop Clinton lived over there and Bishop Clement lived over there. Just Dr. Bethel lived over there. There were quite a few professional people that lived in that community. | 36:04 |
| Chris Stewart | Were there children your age that lived there? | 36:43 |
| Mamie Shipman | Oh yeah. Mm—hmm. Mm—hmm. There's plenty of lay people as well as professional people, but it didn't make any difference there. The relationship was good. | 36:45 |
| Chris Stewart | It was? | 36:59 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm—hmm. | 36:59 |
| Chris Stewart | Were there any people living in your house besides your immediate family? Besides your mother and your sisters? Your sister— | 37:04 |
| Mamie Shipman | Every now and then, Mama would rent a room when she'd get to a pinch. But for the most part we were there. | 37:13 |
| Chris Stewart | How long did you live in that house? | 37:28 |
| Mamie Shipman | The one on 8th Street? | 37:31 |
| Chris Stewart | Sure. | 37:32 |
| Mamie Shipman | I don't know. To tell the truth, I never thought about it. | 37:34 |
| Chris Stewart | Did you graduate from high school? Were you in that house when you graduated high school? | 37:37 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes. Mm—hmm. | 37:40 |
| Chris Stewart | So it's a long time. | 37:44 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes. We lived over there a long time. Until we relocated. Until I relocated because my mother had passed and Susie was in Washington. And she, in her way of writing her will, she just said that Mabel Louise to take care of the house to keep a home for Susan and her children and their descendants. Susan and Wesley, my brother had died. She'd cross that out. But it is hard to keep up with the time now since I've been out here. I've been out here longer than it seems like I've been out here because I think it must have been — I don't know whether it was — Tell the truth, I never was good on remembering dates too much. | 37:45 |
| Chris Stewart | Me neither. | 38:41 |
| Mamie Shipman | Uh—huh. | 38:42 |
| Chris Stewart | Yeah. But we don't need to know dates. | 38:43 |
| Mamie Shipman | We moved over there. It must have been around about 1924. | 38:49 |
| Chris Stewart | To the house on 8th Street? | 38:50 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm—hmm. Must have been around about 1924. I can figure on where I was. I was in third grade, and that's when you're seven and eight years old in that third grade. | 38:54 |
| Chris Stewart | Right. | 39:16 |
| Mamie Shipman | When we moved over going into fourth. I really started fourth grade at Alexander Street. | 39:17 |
| Chris Stewart | What do you recall about Alexander Street School? | 39:24 |
| Mamie Shipman | Steps on the outside. | 39:27 |
| Chris Stewart | Steps on the outside. | 39:29 |
| Mamie Shipman | And getting in a line. | 39:29 |
| Chris Stewart | What do you mean getting— | 39:29 |
| Mamie Shipman | Getting to the classroom— | 39:29 |
| Chris Stewart | Oh. | 39:34 |
| Mamie Shipman | — after recess, when you're getting ready to come in, assemble for something. | 39:35 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you recall any of your teachers from Alexander? | 39:44 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah, in fact from Alexander? | 39:47 |
| Chris Stewart | Sure. | 39:49 |
| Mamie Shipman | Do I recall them? | 39:52 |
| Chris Stewart | Mm—hmm. | 39:53 |
| Mamie Shipman | Because they passed or— | 39:53 |
| Chris Stewart | Yeah. | 39:55 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. I recall them, but I don't think I have any teachers. How old you think I am? | 39:57 |
| Chris Stewart | Graduated from high school in 1930. I'd say you were born probably around 1917. | 40:08 |
| Mamie Shipman | You gracious. It was 1914. | 40:21 |
| Chris Stewart | Oh my. | 40:26 |
| Mamie Shipman | It was 1914. | 40:27 |
| Chris Stewart | Wow. Wow. Well, do you remember at all what kinds of things the teachers at Alexander taught you? | 40:30 |
| Mamie Shipman | You had devotions the first thing in morning. That set the tone for day. In all our schools, we had that. I think that's the one thing we flub the dub on, not setting the tone of the day. | 40:40 |
| Chris Stewart | Now? | 40:58 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm—hmm. Yeah. Well, you can't even have prayer now hardly in peace. It becomes an issue every time you turn around. | 40:59 |
| Chris Stewart | So you had devotions first thing in the morning? | 41:11 |
| Mamie Shipman | Oh yeah. Mm—hmm. | 41:13 |
| Chris Stewart | That was important to you? | 41:14 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm—hmm. | 41:17 |
| Chris Stewart | What do you mean when you say set the tone for the whole day? | 41:19 |
| Mamie Shipman | You're in a quiet, meditative environment. You're not running around, jumping around, slapping around, and whatnot. | 41:24 |
| Chris Stewart | Mm—hmm. Do you remember what subjects you were taught at Alexander School? | 41:38 |
| Mamie Shipman | The basics. Reading, writing, arithmetic, art. Those was English. | 41:48 |
| Chris Stewart | What was your favorite subject? | 41:57 |
| Mamie Shipman | I guess it would be reading. I guess it would be. And math. I didn't get the math [indistinct 00:42:08]. Always liked arithmetic. | 42:05 |
| Chris Stewart | Yeah. Why? | 42:12 |
| Mamie Shipman | Working with figures. But when I made my choice for a major, I selected French and math, and those two don't go together anyhow — But anyhow, after being out, it was hard for Prexie. We called the president of Bennett Prexie. | 42:14 |
| Chris Stewart | Prezi? | 42:44 |
| Mamie Shipman | Prexie. | 42:47 |
| Chris Stewart | Prexie. | 42:47 |
| Mamie Shipman | We'd call— | 42:48 |
| Chris Stewart | What was this person's real name? | 42:51 |
| Mamie Shipman | President Jones. | 42:55 |
| Chris Stewart | President Jones? | 42:55 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm—hmm. In placing people on the job, he had time trying to place women in math field. They wanted a coach and a math teacher combined. See, women didn't fall into the coach whatever. So they cut out the math as a major, and I'm glad that. When they did that, I went to the elementary. | 42:56 |
| Chris Stewart | So you had originally gone for secondary for high school? | 43:29 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. | 43:32 |
| Chris Stewart | I see. | 43:32 |
| Mamie Shipman | I was originally preparing. | 43:32 |
| Chris Stewart | Right. | 43:32 |
| Mamie Shipman | I hadn't gotten out. | 43:36 |
| Chris Stewart | Right. | 43:38 |
| Mamie Shipman | See, I had time to change and went to the elementary school program. So I was in the elementary school from then on until I got junior high. I stayed in junior high right up here at Northwest. I don't know how. | 43:38 |
| Chris Stewart | Oh, sure. I drive right by it to get here. | 44:00 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm—hmm. And then I had an opportunity to get into guidance, and I was in guidance for around about 16 years. | 44:09 |
| Chris Stewart | Really. What did you like about doing guidance? | 44:15 |
| Mamie Shipman | Working with people. | 44:21 |
| Chris Stewart | How? Can you tell me? | 44:25 |
| Mamie Shipman | Accepting people for what they are and whatnot, encouraging people. | 44:27 |
| Chris Stewart | What do you think you were able to do during that 16 years as a guidance counselor there? | 44:37 |
| Mamie Shipman | I don't know what I did, but they remember me. I know that one. | 44:44 |
| Chris Stewart | How do they remember you? | 44:47 |
| Mamie Shipman | I don't know how they remember me. They could just remember me from being tall. As one child I came across, I say, "You know, I always thought you made those telephone calls." They said, "I didn't make any telephone call. I didn't like that perfume you were wearing." I didn't even know she was conscious of any perfume. Never would've dreamed it if it hadn't come out of her mouth. Oh— | 44:55 |
| Mamie Shipman | And to anybody, take 40 junior highs. | 0:03 |
| Chris Stewart | When did you take a trip to Washington? | 0:07 |
| Mamie Shipman | I was working at Northwest, and it was a school trip. And there were around about 40 of them that went on the trip. And we had one male teacher and myself, and she remembered it. She was saying something, said, "Imagine somebody starting off." I bet I wouldn't start out with any 40 children now. | 0:10 |
| Chris Stewart | On a bus trip? | 0:40 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah, it was a weekend trip. | 0:41 |
| Chris Stewart | I'd like to talk a little bit about Second Ward High School for a few minutes and about your years as a student at Second Ward. You said you started there in the seventh grade. | 0:46 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes, I went to, when I left Alexander Street, I went to Myers Street. They had seventh grade. They had sixth grade down at Myers Street, and you could either go to Myers Street, or there were some classes at Second Ward too. But I was down to Myers Street for that one year. | 1:00 |
| Chris Stewart | That was the old [indistinct 00:01:30] Myers Street. | 1:29 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah, that one year. And then we went on up to the high school. | 1:31 |
| Chris Stewart | What was the difference between Myers Street and Alexander? | 1:34 |
| Mamie Shipman | That was an elementary setup, period. The second one was secondary. It was set up secondary, departmental classes. | 1:38 |
| Chris Stewart | What was it like for you, going from elementary to secondary school? How'd you feel going from — | 1:56 |
| Mamie Shipman | Well my sister and I were together all the time, just about. So she had her friends too, but we were comfort for one another. You know what I mean. | 2:07 |
| Chris Stewart | Mm—hmm. | 2:22 |
| Mamie Shipman | And you were thrown back with some of the people you'd been with anyhow, so it wasn't too much adjusting you had to do. | 2:22 |
| Chris Stewart | How far was Second Ward from your house? | 2:31 |
| Mamie Shipman | It was — I don't know. I don't know how to tell you. | 2:37 |
| Chris Stewart | Was it a long walk? | 2:47 |
| Mamie Shipman | It was a good walk, but it wasn't like these children out here had to walk over there. I tell you where it was. It was on Myers Street. It was a straight shoot there. But after you leave Trade, you had around about six, eight blocks to go beyond Trade Street. And that's about the distance. They didn't have any buses or anything like that. | 2:50 |
| Chris Stewart | What did you like most about school in general? | 3:28 |
| Mamie Shipman | Contact with people. And until today, I still like contact. That's one thing I miss about in retirement, especially when you can't get around. That's where I've gotten, to that stage, I can't get around now. But I told you that was the first year that we had caps and gowns, when I was at Second Ward. | 3:34 |
| Chris Stewart | Did you raise money to get the caps and gowns, or did each of the students pay for themselves? | 4:11 |
| Mamie Shipman | You paid for your rental fee. | 4:16 |
| Chris Stewart | Why didn't they have caps and gowns previous to this? | 4:20 |
| Mamie Shipman | I don't know. Evidently nobody had put that much priority on it. They were more into basketball and all the sports, as usual. So that holds true until today. | 4:24 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you recall, speaking of basketball and sports, do you recall, did you participate in any extracurricular activities at— | 4:45 |
| Mamie Shipman | Not too many, not too many. | 4:54 |
| Chris Stewart | Choir or math club or something like that? | 4:56 |
| Mamie Shipman | Well I was in several honor societies. I mean that was on college level. But I think we had a French club there. | 5:04 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you recall any or remember any teachers that influenced you in high school, that really you felt were a great influence to you? | 5:20 |
| Mamie Shipman | Really one teacher was responsible for me getting a job in Charlotte by saying a good word for me, when they were looking for an elementary teacher. That was Miss Reid. | 5:40 |
| Chris Stewart | Miss Reid? | 5:55 |
| Mamie Shipman | Uh—huh, I was in her room in sixth grade and seventh grade. I was in her room, and the teacher that was in sixth grade, I always thought a lot of her. Which that was Hattie Russell. I was just there one year, though. | 5:56 |
| Chris Stewart | At Myers Street. | 6:16 |
| Mamie Shipman | And then down to the Episcopal school, you just felt like those were home people, because your parents knew them and whatnot. And you just felt close to them down at the Episcopal school. And I stayed in the same teacher's room until I left there [indistinct 00:06:39]. | 6:18 |
| Chris Stewart | How did teachers discipline students at any of these schools? | 6:40 |
| Mamie Shipman | Holding you in after school, for the most part. And of course when they got extreme, the expelled. | 6:46 |
| Chris Stewart | Did you find that teachers would play favorites with certain students? | 7:00 |
| Mamie Shipman | Depending on the person, yeah, depending on the person. | 7:06 |
| Chris Stewart | Depending on the teacher. | 7:09 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm—hmm. | 7:10 |
| Chris Stewart | How would they, for the ones that you thought did play favorites? How would they do that? | 7:12 |
| Mamie Shipman | Give more attention to some than they did others, doing little things for others that they didn't — And the others looking on, they see. | 7:24 |
| Chris Stewart | How did the students who weren't favored react to that? | 7:37 |
| Mamie Shipman | Tell the truth, they just forgot about it, I guess. Most likely they just forgot about it and accepted them for what they were. | 7:45 |
| Chris Stewart | How about your own mother? How did your own mother discipline you and your sister and brother? | 8:00 |
| Mamie Shipman | She talked to you a good bit. I think the last whipping I got wasn't a whipping, but my brother, who was an invalid, was in the chair, and he slipped down. And she had gone to the store and left me there with him. Well I expect he was about as big as I was, and I couldn't have very well controlled him. But she didn't see it that way. But she did mostly talking. | 8:09 |
| Chris Stewart | What would she say to you, if you did something wrong? How would she talk to you? | 8:48 |
| Mamie Shipman | I don't know that she had — She didn't have that much trouble with Susie and myself. She didn't have, but my brother gave her a fit. | 8:57 |
| Chris Stewart | Yeah. | 9:04 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah, that's the one, and she loved him nearly to death, but he gave her a fit, getting into trouble, doing things he shouldn't be doing, not coming home when he should come home. But so far as Susan and myself concerned, it was more or less even keel. | 9:05 |
| Chris Stewart | Were there areas where you grew up, that you weren't supposed to go to? | 9:28 |
| Mamie Shipman | You didn't run in everybody's house. That's one thing. You didn't go out spending the night. So those types of things, you were sheltered. | 9:35 |
| Chris Stewart | In your neighborhood. | 9:58 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm—hmm. | 9:58 |
| Chris Stewart | Were there places where you knew it wasn't safe for Black people to go? | 10:00 |
| Mamie Shipman | Times weren't like they are now, and so it was no comparison to what it is now. You just didn't mix with everybody. You treat people nicely, but you don't do what they do. Mine was more or less you had your Sunday school, and you had your picnics and whatnot, those things and activities of that nature and whatnot. | 10:11 |
| Chris Stewart | You mentioned Sunday school. What church did you belong to? | 10:44 |
| Mamie Shipman | That was Simpson Gillespie. | 10:46 |
| Chris Stewart | So you belonged to Simpson Gillespie [indistinct 00:10:50]. | 10:47 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm—hmm. When we reached three months of age, Mamma would bring us home, have us christened. And she had brought all of us home in three months to have us christened. | 10:51 |
| Chris Stewart | What kind of activities did the church sponsor for you as a child [indistinct 00:11:12]? | 11:07 |
| Mamie Shipman | Your church school classes and organization of young people. It was called Epworth League at that time. | 11:12 |
| Chris Stewart | It was called — I'm sorry. | 11:22 |
| Mamie Shipman | Epworth League. | 11:24 |
| Chris Stewart | Epworth League. | 11:25 |
| Mamie Shipman | Uh—huh, and that was in the Methodist, United Methodist Church. | 11:26 |
| Chris Stewart | Did you participate in that, even though you went to Simpson? | 11:33 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. | 11:35 |
| Chris Stewart | And what did the Epworth League do? | 11:40 |
| Mamie Shipman | You had your regular club meeting and planned for activities. | 11:45 |
| Chris Stewart | What kinds of activities? | 11:50 |
| Mamie Shipman | Like they would have games from time to time. | 11:52 |
| Chris Stewart | For children? | 12:03 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah, for young people. But that was about the score of it. | 12:04 |
| Chris Stewart | I'd like to talk a little bit more about school, when you went away to school. You said you went away to Bennett. | 12:17 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm—hmm. | 12:28 |
| Chris Stewart | What was campus like? Where did you live? | 12:30 |
| Mamie Shipman | We lived in the dormitory, but that was the first time I had been away from home since I came to Charlotte, when I went to Bennett. | 12:34 |
| Chris Stewart | What was that like, leaving home? | 12:46 |
| Mamie Shipman | Susie and I were together again. We were roommates, and there were three people in a room, so there was a third person in there. That's contact again, new friendships and whatnot. | 12:48 |
| Chris Stewart | What kinds of things did you do at Bennett besides go to class? Where there any social activities or extracurricular activities? You mentioned a French club. | 13:05 |
| Mamie Shipman | You had your choice about sports you may participate in, the dances you had and whatnot. Those were, more or less, activities on college level. | 13:18 |
| Chris Stewart | Did you belong to a sorority? | 13:35 |
| Mamie Shipman | Not while I was in school. The honor society, my name was given in that in the last — That came your senior year. But I joined the sorority, the graduate chapter of AKA. But during the time of urban renewal, I never was active, because I had other pressing things to do. But yes, I had membership in the sorority. | 13:38 |
| Chris Stewart | And you graduated from Bennett. | 14:10 |
| Mamie Shipman | In 1940. | 14:14 |
| Chris Stewart | I see, I see. | 14:16 |
| Mamie Shipman | Taught one year at Hillsborough. | 14:18 |
| Chris Stewart | At Hillsborough, North Carolina? | 14:20 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm—hmm, that was my first year. I was really offered work as a residential matron. | 14:24 |
| Chris Stewart | At a dormitory? | 14:33 |
| Mamie Shipman | At Bennett, yeah. | 14:34 |
| Chris Stewart | I see. | 14:36 |
| Mamie Shipman | But see, I had been doing that type of work. I preferred to get out and get in the classroom. So I took advantage of teaching and let that residential work go. | 14:36 |
| Chris Stewart | So you taught elementary school, then, in Hillsborough? | 14:54 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes, fourth grade. | 14:58 |
| Chris Stewart | What was the name of the school? | 15:00 |
| Mamie Shipman | Orange County. | 15:00 |
| Chris Stewart | The Orange County Training School. Orange County, right close to where I live. | 15:01 |
| Mamie Shipman | Sure enough. | 15:11 |
| Chris Stewart | What was your first year of teaching like? | 15:15 |
| Mamie Shipman | Feeling your way. | 15:19 |
| Chris Stewart | How did you do that? | 15:20 |
| Mamie Shipman | Try to observe as much as you could. | 15:24 |
| Chris Stewart | Observe other teachers? | 15:28 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm—hmm. | 15:30 |
| Chris Stewart | What did you learn from the other teachers? | 15:31 |
| Mamie Shipman | Well it'd be mostly in discussions, you exchange ideas. They had lesson plans then, so it was more or less according to a certain form. | 15:34 |
| Chris Stewart | That first year, what do you think was the most important thing you learned about teaching, that you perhaps didn't know when you were at Bennett? | 15:54 |
| Mamie Shipman | I have always felt that, in positions like that, you need to know some music and dancing and art. Those are some important things to go, and I don't think the good Lord blessed me with talent for any of it. But see, now you have tape players and other equipment to help you along. Couldn't sing, couldn't carry a tune. | 16:06 |
| Chris Stewart | What did you do in your classroom? What kinds of things did you do in your classroom at Hillsborough? | 16:45 |
| Mamie Shipman | We tried it. We tried to do the best we could, yes indeed. They liked the physical ed. They liked going outdoors, getting out their classroom. | 16:48 |
| Chris Stewart | How long was the school year at Hillsborough? | 17:09 |
| Mamie Shipman | It was around about eight months. I don't think it was nine months at that time. | 17:15 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you remember anything about your first students, your first classroom? | 17:26 |
| Mamie Shipman | Nothing special, it wasn't special to me. | 17:33 |
| Chris Stewart | Here's a different sort of question. Can you remember when you felt like you were being treated like an adult woman, when you felt you came into your adulthood? | 17:40 |
| Mamie Shipman | I had a hard time dealing with that, because I told you, Mamma always looked at me as the baby. And she'd give the responsibility to Susie. When they get ready to go somewhere, Susie could go, but I couldn't go. Yet we were just two years apart, and we were in the same class. So I wasn't pushed ahead in growing up one bit there. Susie had more of that experience than I did. So just took it as it came. | 17:56 |
| Chris Stewart | When did you think that you were an adult? I mean, at what point in your life? Was it when you went away to teach or before that or after that? | 18:53 |
| Mamie Shipman | It was after that. Mamma was the head of the house, and you looked to her as head of the house there. I told you, she didn't have much trouble with us or anything like that. The relationship there was good, and you mind. You knew how to mind. But neighbors came to your rescue too. I never forget the neighbors, because when your parents are out working, they're there sometimes. And you can learn from them, what they're doing. | 19:05 |
| Chris Stewart | What kinds of things would neighbors do for you? | 19:44 |
| Mamie Shipman | Even just visit and talk with them, and if they're doing something, you join in. If they're washing, you don't know anything about washing with these tubs and what not. If they're washing, you get in there and wash with them. I mean help them wash the things. If they're cooking, they'll tell you to fix something or show you how to fix it. You get on in there and do it, I guess. And that was educational too, when nobody else was taking time with you. | 19:48 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you remember a neighbor that was really special to you, that you spent a lot of time with? | 20:28 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah, I remember. But the one that always was interested in you, get into your social affairs, pass. | 20:31 |
| Chris Stewart | What was the name? | 20:49 |
| Mamie Shipman | Her name was Miss Brooks. | 20:51 |
| Chris Stewart | Brooks? | 20:52 |
| Mamie Shipman | I remember we went to — That's something else they used to have, drama classes and plays. I remember when we went to the play, and she was — Mamma had given us permission to go with her. And on the way back, a fellow as walking me back home. We got halfway there, and he was going to turn around. She said, "No you won't. You're going to stay. You're going to walk her right on up to that house." I mean things like supportive things. Mamma was more puritanical, if you know what I'm talking about. | 20:53 |
| Chris Stewart | Can you explain to me what you're talking about? | 21:39 |
| Mamie Shipman | You don't do this, and you don't do that. She was more that puritanical type. | 21:42 |
| Chris Stewart | Did you date in high school? | 21:51 |
| Mamie Shipman | Not worth anything. It was just like we had groups that moved around together. | 21:54 |
| Chris Stewart | So when you went out— | 22:03 |
| Mamie Shipman | But so far as going steady, I didn't do steady, anything like that. | 22:05 |
| Chris Stewart | So when you went out, you went out with a group of friends. | 22:13 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. | 22:15 |
| Chris Stewart | What would you do when you went out? | 22:17 |
| Mamie Shipman | Well it depends on what's going on, like you're going to a game, or you're going to a play, you're going to a concert. | 22:20 |
| Chris Stewart | Did both boys and girls, was your group in high school both boys and girls or just girls? | 22:35 |
| Mamie Shipman | It was usually boys and girls. So that was about the score of it. My neighbor was in the same class that we were, and he was a kind of a protection in a sense. | 22:41 |
| Chris Stewart | Really? | 23:02 |
| Mamie Shipman | In moving around. | 23:02 |
| Chris Stewart | How was he? How did he protect you? | 23:10 |
| Mamie Shipman | Well just being there and moving— | 23:14 |
| Chris Stewart | You mean walking? | 23:16 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah, just I don't mean for fights or anything like that. But you just feel more secure sometimes. You're out at night and go to a game or go to a play, and you get together coming back home. | 23:18 |
| Chris Stewart | You felt more secure having a young man walking with you at night. | 23:36 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. | 23:40 |
| Chris Stewart | Today too. | 23:40 |
| Mamie Shipman | I don't even want to get out today. It's gotten that bad. | 23:40 |
| Chris Stewart | Yeah. Did you feel safe in your neighborhood, when you were growing up on Eighth Street? | 23:51 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah, you could walk out and not think about walking the door necessarily. Yeah, it was altogether different until they started building Arrow Village. And after they started building Arrow Village, more people were breaking in your house. | 23:54 |
| Chris Stewart | What Village? | 24:12 |
| Mamie Shipman | Arrow Village. | 24:13 |
| Chris Stewart | Earl Village? | 24:13 |
| Mamie Shipman | It's a housing project over there. | 24:14 |
| Chris Stewart | When was that? In the '50s did they start building that? | 24:16 |
| Mamie Shipman | No, it was after the '50s. | 24:19 |
| Chris Stewart | '60s, urban renewal time? | 24:19 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah, that's that urban renewal period. | 24:24 |
| Chris Stewart | Was there any things that happened in your neighborhood when you were growing up, that were controversial? One of the people that I interviewed remembered a flood on a creek. This was in the Cherry Neighborhood, where a bunch of children died. Was there anything in your neighborhood that you remember growing up, that was any bad events or controversial things that went on in your neighborhood, that you recall? | 24:31 |
| Mamie Shipman | No, I don't remember anything like that. | 25:07 |
| Chris Stewart | Where did your mother and you shop, do your shopping? | 25:11 |
| Mamie Shipman | To the corner store, uptown, right in the midst of town. That's what I miss now up there. There's nowhere hardly to go there. But at your neighborhood store, and now when I need something from the store in here, well I don't walk steady now. I wouldn't get out here to try to walk way up there by Pacers. In the first place, you wouldn't want to go out there by yourself half the time. And you just have to get out, have to have some way of moving the transportation before you can get to anything. | 25:16 |
| Chris Stewart | But you say you have a neighborhood store in First Ward. | 25:58 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah, in First Ward they had two or three stores sometimes in one block. | 26:06 |
| Chris Stewart | What kinds of stuff did the— | 26:10 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mr. Loin used to have a meat market. | 26:12 |
| Chris Stewart | Mr. Long? | 26:16 |
| Mamie Shipman | Loin. | 26:17 |
| Chris Stewart | Loin. | 26:18 |
| Mamie Shipman | Uh—huh, and there was another fellow down there, had one. But the A&P in Pender's would have stores in the neighborhood. And then some of the individual citizens had stores in the neighborhood. | 26:19 |
| Chris Stewart | What about clothing? Where would you buy your clothes? | 26:37 |
| Mamie Shipman | Uptown. | 26:41 |
| Chris Stewart | At Ivy's? | 26:42 |
| Mamie Shipman | At Ivy's? | 26:43 |
| Chris Stewart | Mm—hmm. | 26:45 |
| Mamie Shipman | No. If you had enough money, if your name Crest. | 26:49 |
| Chris Stewart | What stores would you buy your clothes? | 26:56 |
| Mamie Shipman | Belk's. | 26:58 |
| Chris Stewart | Belk's. | 26:58 |
| Mamie Shipman | Belk's and Little and Long. Belk's was— | 27:02 |
| Chris Stewart | Little and Long, did you say? | 27:03 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes. But Belk's was one of the main stores that people catered to. Efert's was up there, Efert's and Ivy's. Of course it depend on what money you had to spend. | 27:05 |
| Chris Stewart | Which was the most affordable store? | 27:21 |
| Mamie Shipman | Belk's, and I see where they're going to open another shop up there, that city fair, but it's just going to be lingerie. | 27:23 |
| Chris Stewart | What about beauty shops? Where did you get your hair done? Where did your mother get her hair done? | 27:39 |
| Mamie Shipman | We did that at home. | 27:45 |
| Chris Stewart | You did? You did? | 27:48 |
| Mamie Shipman | There were beauty parlors, but we washed our own hair. | 27:49 |
| Chris Stewart | Did you and your sister style each other's hair? | 27:58 |
| Mamie Shipman | Sometimes. It all depends on what was happening at the time, but that was about the score of it. Now this lady that I told you, the one that got on this fellow about wanting to turn around and go back, she used to have a little club in the neighborhood, where we used to crochet, embroider. And this one neighbor nextdoor, he was the only boy in that group. | 28:01 |
| Chris Stewart | So he learned how to crochet and embroider. | 28:43 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes, in that particular group. Now that was for children only. She had children, but they were younger than we were. That's another thing I used to do, was keep people's children, comb their hair. | 28:46 |
| Chris Stewart | Really? | 29:02 |
| Mamie Shipman | Neighbors, when they had to go to work. | 29:03 |
| Chris Stewart | When you were in high school? | 29:06 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. | 29:11 |
| Chris Stewart | This club, where you learned how to embroider and crochet, that was at Mrs. Brooks' house? | 29:13 |
| Mamie Shipman | That was before high school. | 29:21 |
| Chris Stewart | It was? | 29:21 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm—hmm. | 29:23 |
| Chris Stewart | But it was at Mrs. Brooks' house? | 29:28 |
| Mamie Shipman | Or either at a neighbor's house. | 29:29 |
| Chris Stewart | Okay. Were there other kinds of clubs? Did your mother belong to other kinds of clubs? | 29:33 |
| Mamie Shipman | Now Mamma was tied down with children, so she didn't have any of that social life after she married. But before she married, she worked with the YWCA. She used to work with the YWCA, and she used to work. And that's another place we used to visit and have activities, at the Y. | 29:38 |
| Chris Stewart | What kinds of things would you do at the Y? | 30:06 |
| Mamie Shipman | Sports and physical ed and things of that nature. | 30:10 |
| Chris Stewart | Would they have any courses on homemaking or manners or anything like that? | 30:14 |
| Mamie Shipman | May come up with the manners and whatnot, but Mamma worked with the Women's Christian Temperance Movement. | 30:21 |
| Chris Stewart | She did. | 30:31 |
| Mamie Shipman | Now that was before she married. | 30:33 |
| Chris Stewart | Right. Did she tell you about her work? This was in Charlotte? | 30:36 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes, it was during the time of World War I, and they would take coffee down to the station for the soldiers when they were passing through and whatnot. But she was a church worker in addition to Sunday school union. That was kind of ecumenical, where different representatives from different churches' church school came together and met. | 30:41 |
| Chris Stewart | What kinds of things would the ecumenical, the Sunday school union, what kind of work would they do? Would they do community work? | 31:14 |
| Mamie Shipman | No, they would meet and check on the progress that different groups were making, more like your club meeting there. | 31:24 |
| Chris Stewart | When your mother was involved with the Women's Christian Temperance Union, did she ever tell you about working for women to get the vote? | 31:43 |
| Mamie Shipman | No, she didn't. It was right at the time of the war, that World War I. In fact, they used to drill on the corner on Poplar Street. | 31:53 |
| Chris Stewart | Really, during the war? | 32:06 |
| Mamie Shipman | It was a camp. Camp Green was out on the edge of the town. That happened to be, when I heard her talk of it, it was during the time when they was soldiers being in town, passing through or drilling or something. | 32:07 |
| Chris Stewart | Were these mostly Black soldiers, the Black platoons? | 32:30 |
| Mamie Shipman | Now I don't know that part, most likely. They were segregated, though, at that time. You know they were segregated at that time. | 32:33 |
| Chris Stewart | Did you ever belong to any clubs or organizations, community organizations? | 32:46 |
| Mamie Shipman | Social club and AKA and teachers' associations for many years. | 32:54 |
| Chris Stewart | What were the names of some of the social clubs? | 33:06 |
| Mamie Shipman | The one I belonged to, we used to call it [foreign language 00:33:14]. | 33:10 |
| Chris Stewart | [foreign language 00:33:18]. | 33:14 |
| Mamie Shipman | Select set, it's a French word, [foreign language 00:33:25]. | 33:20 |
| Chris Stewart | Yeah. What does it mean? | 33:25 |
| Mamie Shipman | And now the only one left that I belong to right now is Cosmopolitan. | 33:31 |
| Chris Stewart | Who belonged to the two groups, these two groups? | 33:38 |
| Mamie Shipman | Friends, and they played cards, pinochle or bridge or canasta. | 33:43 |
| Chris Stewart | What would you talk about, when you would play cards? | 33:52 |
| Mamie Shipman | Just things in general. | 33:57 |
| Chris Stewart | Your work? | 34:00 |
| Mamie Shipman | Not necessarily, not when you're playing cards. | 34:01 |
| Chris Stewart | What would you talk about when you're playing cards. | 34:09 |
| Mamie Shipman | You have to keep your mind on — | 34:10 |
| Chris Stewart | On the cards, mm—hmm. How many women were involved in [foreign language 00:34:18] when you were active? | 34:12 |
| Mamie Shipman | There were around about eight or 10, around about 10 of us. | 34:20 |
| Chris Stewart | Where would you meet? | 34:26 |
| Mamie Shipman | At different ones' houses. | 34:27 |
| Chris Stewart | What would you look for when you were deciding who would enter into the club? What would you look for in a perspective club member? | 34:34 |
| Mamie Shipman | How you relate to them, see their interests, whether they want to join. | 34:43 |
| Chris Stewart | What were the common interests of the members when you— | 34:53 |
| Mamie Shipman | Most of it's fellowship, getting together. And so that was about the score of it. | 34:57 |
| Chris Stewart | Did you talk about church activities, or did you talk about— | 35:09 |
| Mamie Shipman | It may come up. Anything may come up. | 35:13 |
| Chris Stewart | Just things that happened in your day. | 35:15 |
| Mamie Shipman | That's right, or from time to time. | 35:17 |
| Chris Stewart | So you taught at Hillsborough your first year. Where did you go from there? | 35:25 |
| Mamie Shipman | Fairview Elementary School right out here on Burton Street, at that time. | 35:32 |
| Chris Stewart | Mrs. Reid helped you get that job? | 35:40 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah, she recommended me to the principal. And of course Mamma knew the principal. Contact means a whole lot. And she would've gotten somebody else, but the other person had had more years experience. And they didn't want the cost of salary of all that experience. And I was just coming out, and that was in my favor. | 35:42 |
| Chris Stewart | What was your starting salary? Do you remember? | 36:10 |
| Mamie Shipman | Seemed to me like it was around about 80—some dollars. | 36:18 |
| Chris Stewart | A month? | 36:21 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah, if I'm not — At one time it used to be 50—some, but I don't think I had gotten into it. I don't think I had finished school then. | 36:22 |
| Chris Stewart | Did you live, then, with your mother? | 36:34 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes. | 36:37 |
| Chris Stewart | Mm—hmm, while you were teaching. How long did you teach at Fairview? | 36:38 |
| Mamie Shipman | At Fairview? | 36:43 |
| Chris Stewart | Mm—hmm. | 36:47 |
| Mamie Shipman | Around about four years, I guess. And then they transferred the six grades over to where Charlotte, because Dr. Garringer had charge of the secondary schools, and Mr. Harden had charge of the elementary schools. And I don't think they saw eye to eye all the time, so they took all the secondary groups and put them so they would be under Dr. Garringer. And of course sixth grade is getting on up to junior high. And when I was asked to leave, I told them I'd rather stay there. They said, "But if you're asked to go, you'll go, won't you?" | 36:47 |
| Mamie Shipman | I said, "Yes, I sure will." | 37:32 |
| Chris Stewart | So why did the school move? What was it between? | 37:33 |
| Mamie Shipman | Putting the classes under the right person there. See, that's when Dr. Garringer had sixth, seventh and eighth grade and the high school. But Mr. Harden just had one through sixth, elementary. But they sent that sixth grade on from Fairview over the second, over to where Charlotte was, the old school in the new building. Northwest is a new school in the old building, but that's when I went to West Charlotte, is when the sixth graders went over there. | 37:45 |
| Chris Stewart | To West Charlotte. | 38:28 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm—hmm, and they were in seventh that year. | 38:29 |
| Chris Stewart | And how long were you teaching there? | 38:32 |
| Mamie Shipman | Now I don't know, to tell the truth. I know I was [indistinct 00:38:42] 16 years, but I left. Which one you asking about, Northwest? | 38:37 |
| Chris Stewart | West Charlotte. | 38:52 |
| Mamie Shipman | I was with West Charlotte until they moved into the new building from around about '45 to the time that they moved in the new building. Prior to '45, I was at Fairview. And see, that's when Northwest was created, when they moved into the new building. | 38:54 |
| Chris Stewart | The middle school. | 39:16 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes. | 39:17 |
| Chris Stewart | Now did you do guidance at Northwest? | 39:21 |
| Mamie Shipman | But now I went in there as a classroom teacher. | 39:24 |
| Chris Stewart | Okay, what grade, sixth grade still? | 39:27 |
| Mamie Shipman | Seventh grade. | 39:29 |
| Chris Stewart | Seventh grade. | 39:30 |
| Mamie Shipman | They were getting promoted from the sixth grade to the seventh, and I had geography for a good number of years. Nobody wanted to teach geography, so I took it. And I don't know why people wouldn't want to know about places. But anyhow, it was on departmental setup. And then I had civics when they started shifting you around to some of the other classes. But for the most part it was social studies, for the most part. | 39:31 |
| Chris Stewart | I'd like to ask you a little bit about healthcare when you were growing up. Did you have a family doctor, or where did you get your healthcare? | 40:20 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah, usually had a family doctor, one you turned to. And the health department provided shots for smallpox and whatnot, and dental. They had public health nurses. The public health nurse was quite popular at that time. They went to the schools. | 40:28 |
| Chris Stewart | Sure, sure. When did you retire? | 40:54 |
| Mamie Shipman | I retired in — It must've been '78, '78, '79. | 40:54 |
| Chris Stewart | Wow. Where were you teaching when you retired? | 41:12 |
| Mamie Shipman | In guidance. I had an opportunity to — I worked mostly with the junior high school when I first went in, because I went in at Northwest. But I eventually went to the elementary guidance. So I went to elementary guidance, and that took me over here to Lincoln Heights. And then when I retired, I was between Lincoln Heights and Avamar Road Elementary School. That was K through three. And of course Lincoln Heights was fourth through sixth. | 41:16 |
| Chris Stewart | Right. Can you talk a little bit about how you think school and education has changed? You've taught, or you were in education for — Did you say 39 years? | 41:52 |
| Mamie Shipman | I was retired after 39 years. It's in some phase of education, because that included that guidance. | 42:11 |
| Chris Stewart | Right. Can you talk a little bit about how you think education or the system of education as you saw it changed over that period? | 42:17 |
| Mamie Shipman | I think that people began to stray away in values during the segregation, in this process. And really it wasn't as much in—depth teaching as it was holding class. You know what I mean? Keeping them quiet and whatnot. | 42:31 |
| Chris Stewart | Are you talking about when schools became integrated? | 43:06 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes. | 43:10 |
| Chris Stewart | So previous to that — | 43:11 |
| Mamie Shipman | You didn't have that much trouble. That's when I say they had devotions and whatnot, [indistinct 00:43:23] and whatnot. | 43:13 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you think it was — Why do you think? What do you count for the difference? | 43:30 |
| Mamie Shipman | Difference in values. And see, if the children haven't had the training, they can't reflect it. And I think this frustrated some, because people took the attitude they weren't sent there to teach them manners and this type of — I've heard it said they weren't sent there to teach them manners and whatnot. | 43:31 |
| Chris Stewart | Right. Did you see that, or did you hear about that for both Black and White students? | 43:59 |
| Mamie Shipman | That was mostly on the White side. See, we knew about it already. Didn't you hear me say the neighbors would come to the rescue sometimes? They helped keep you in line about as much as — I know I had a neighbor. Every time she'd give you something, if you didn't say thank you, she'd take it back. You didn't say thank you, hand it back in. But believe it or not, that was a lesson. Then neglected otherwise, because they would have said it. But I say the difference in values, what some think is good for our students, in my book is not what I call good. | 44:11 |
| Chris Stewart | For Black students. | 45:12 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes. | 45:13 |
| Chris Stewart | Can you explain what you mean about that? | 45:15 |
| Mamie Shipman | It isn't as highly developed. Their learning isn't as highly developed. For instance, child came into the guidance office and said, "Miss Chapman, you is so and so." I say, "Can't you say are?" | 45:18 |
| Mamie Shipman | "There you go with that White folks talk." You see what you're bucking against? Now if they get by with that, you see what's going to happen. You can't stop anything. And they get the false impression that they're doing something, when they aren't doing anything. | 45:39 |
| Chris Stewart | And of course you didn't see that kind of behavior when folks were segregated. | 46:06 |
| Mamie Shipman | No, you didn't bother with that too much. | 46:10 |
| Chris Stewart | It sounds like you're talking some about competition between White students and Black students. | 46:15 |
| Mamie Shipman | I'm talking about values. They didn't value their education. They valued doing something that wasn't as highly structured as the thing they want to hear. They want you to let them alone. But I tell you, some of the things, that honor society, that child was in the honor society too. And it wasn't that she — They're screened for the honor society, so it — | 46:22 |
| Mamie Shipman | With the way they're carrying on in these schools, the junior high and senior high with this experience you have with all this violence going on. | 0:02 |
| Chris Stewart | Can you talk to me a little bit about the values that you feel your mother, your family instilled in you? | 0:20 |
| Mamie Shipman | Well, in the beginning I mentioned that I came from a religious family. If you come from a religious family, you going to know something about the Commandments, the Ten Commandments. You know something about the Ten Commandments, you're going to know how to get along with people for the most part, what's right and what's wrong. Now, they don't have that. | 0:32 |
| Chris Stewart | How did you learn the Ten Commandments? How did you learn? | 1:07 |
| Mamie Shipman | I went to church school. If you go to Sunday school, if you're attending, nine times out of 10, you're going to hear about it somewhere. I don't see how you can get through that without getting some of that knowledge. | 1:11 |
| Chris Stewart | Did you learn at home as well? | 1:29 |
| Mamie Shipman | Oh, yeah. We had prayer at home. | 1:31 |
| Chris Stewart | When was that? | 1:34 |
| Mamie Shipman | Sunday was our main day. You had Scripture and prayer before eating. But religion has had its place in the family. Of course, you knew to say your prayers at night before you go to bed. You'd take just a little simple thing. I used to put a lot of weight on good sportsmanship, but good sportsmanship got so that it was much poor relationship in that as anything else. But thou shall not steal means the same thing. I don't care where you put it. It still means the same thing. You don't have to classify it as religion or secular or whatnot. You shouldn't steal. It's something wrong there. There shall not kill. Where does that fit in there? They're killing more now than they ever killed. That's how you apply it. If you're a good sport, you usually practice most of those things; do unto others as you'd have others do unto you. Those types of things. | 1:39 |
| Chris Stewart | Did you ever marry, Ms. Shipman? | 3:24 |
| Mamie Shipman | Late, yes, and divorced. | 3:27 |
| Chris Stewart | Really? Did you have any children? | 3:32 |
| Mamie Shipman | No, it was late when I— | 3:35 |
| Chris Stewart | So it was when you were well into your career? | 3:42 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes. Yes, indeed. And believe it or not, I married a minister. | 3:44 |
| Chris Stewart | You did? How did you meet him? | 3:54 |
| Mamie Shipman | Through friends. | 3:58 |
| Chris Stewart | Was he a minister here in Charlotte? | 4:02 |
| Mamie Shipman | King's Mountain in the United Church of Christ congregation, but he was over King's Mountain. | 4:05 |
| Chris Stewart | Did you move out to King's Mountain? | 4:15 |
| Mamie Shipman | I never did. I was right there at the same place, at the home place, at mama's house. | 4:18 |
| Chris Stewart | Really? | 4:27 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm-hmm. | 4:27 |
| Chris Stewart | After you married, you stayed in your house? | 4:28 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes. | 4:31 |
| Chris Stewart | Did he come to move back or did he stay with his congregation? | 4:32 |
| Mamie Shipman | No. He stayed there. When we were together, he stayed there. But after we got a divorce, then he got his own abode there. | 4:37 |
| Chris Stewart | How long were you married? | 4:49 |
| Mamie Shipman | I can't count it. | 4:49 |
| Chris Stewart | Long time? | 4:49 |
| Mamie Shipman | No, not that long. I told you, I can't keep up with all these dates. | 5:01 |
| Chris Stewart | I'm sorry. I should stop. I don't mean to keep on asking you. That's not fair. | 5:04 |
| Mamie Shipman | Not with this mind I got now. | 5:10 |
| Chris Stewart | You're doing really very, very well. Believe me, wonderfully well. Can you tell me what it was like for you? You say you were married for a short time, but it sounds like you've been single or divorced for most of your life. | 5:13 |
| Mamie Shipman | I have. | 5:30 |
| Chris Stewart | Can you tell me what it was like for a single woman where you left? Did you feel safe? Where did you find your enjoyment, your friends, those kinds of things? | 5:31 |
| Mamie Shipman | You have your misgivings, but it depends upon your attitude as the way you're looking at it. Mama always said, "I don't want to be a stumbling block in anybody's way," and that's the way I felt. If I'm a stumbling block in your way, it's better to be apart than be together. I don't hate anybody or any of that kind of stuff, but I don't want to be agitating anybody, either. I was right there where he found me. If it was any going, it was for him to go, not for me. | 5:48 |
| Chris Stewart | Did he approve of your working? | 6:31 |
| Mamie Shipman | Oh, yeah. Always approved. But I don't think he ever got full satisfaction in what he was doing. | 6:38 |
| Chris Stewart | Really? | 6:52 |
| Mamie Shipman | Uh-huh. Along with that ministry, he would do odd jobs. But the people, he was a good person. People thought a lot of him where he was. But that's not living in four walls. It's different when you live in four walls. Sometimes these people who are so nice ahead of time and then it turns out you're not all that nice when you get to rubbing one another. | 6:54 |
| Chris Stewart | Did you see a change from courtship to when you were married in him? | 7:41 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. Yeah. | 7:46 |
| Chris Stewart | How did he change, do you think? | 7:48 |
| Mamie Shipman | For the worst. You never would have gone into it if you thought it was all that bad in the beginning. But I tell you, if you can relate it, there are different things when you come to relating to one another. I still cling to what Mama would always say. I don't intend to be a stumbling block in anybody's way even though I don't like what you're doing. | 7:51 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you think that you were able to get in your career, you were with the schools for 39 years and it sounds like you were able to do some different things with guidance counseling. Do you think that you would have been able to do that, had you been married and had children? You said your mother was a teacher for a while and then she had- | 8:44 |
| Mamie Shipman | No, she wasn't. That was way before she married. | 9:03 |
| Chris Stewart | Right. Right. | 9:06 |
| Mamie Shipman | Uh-huh. So really, that was before my time with her. | 9:07 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you think you would have been able to pursue the career that you pursued had you been married and had children? | 9:11 |
| Mamie Shipman | I don't know. It depends. You set goals for yourself and you work toward those goals. So it depends on your attitude that you have there. You're always thinking, at least I like to think positively. So you think everything will be all right, but it isn't like that all the time. Everything is not all right. But there's some things you can do something about and then there's some things you can't do anything about. You have to know the difference between the two. Now, where did that come from? | 9:17 |
| Chris Stewart | Those are words of wisdom, wherever that came from. Do you regret not having children? | 10:04 |
| Mamie Shipman | I accepted that because I was late getting married. That part really didn't, as a child playing with dolls, you think in terms of family. But after the years passed, you begin to accept that. For the most part, I was there with Mama anyhow. She was there by herself. | 10:10 |
| Chris Stewart | You just said a couple minutes ago that you accept those things that you can't change and you do those that you can. Can you tell me some of those things that you felt like you accepted that you couldn't change? | 10:38 |
| Mamie Shipman | The personality of people. | 10:52 |
| Chris Stewart | Are you talking about your ex-husband? | 10:56 |
| Mamie Shipman | It could apply to anybody. | 10:59 |
| Chris Stewart | Okay. | 11:02 |
| Mamie Shipman | I couldn't change his. Everything he wants to look at, if he looks at it negative and I try to look at things positive, you still got a divided house there. | 11:03 |
| Chris Stewart | Yeah. | 11:19 |
| Mamie Shipman | We are products of our early experiences now. That's how we got that way. I have a niece I have to talk to all the time about that, where she doesn't want to give in. Those early experiences make you what you are. Even though you don't like them sometimes, you find yourself doing the very thing you don't like before you know it. I used to tell Mama that she could be dogmatic. Later on I said, "I'm being just as dogmatic as she's been." But see, when you change something, you got to change from within. You don't change from without. You got to want to do it yourself. | 11:24 |
| Mamie Shipman | Now that's going back to what you were asking about my husband. He would have to want to do those things himself. I couldn't make him do anything. If he didn't want to do it, that meant it didn't have priority anyway. | 12:16 |
| Chris Stewart | What kinds of things did you think that your mother was dogmatic about that you see yourself? | 12:39 |
| Mamie Shipman | Giving you orders. I'll tell you, she was head of the house. | 12:47 |
| Chris Stewart | Yeah? | 12:52 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes, indeed. | 12:56 |
| Chris Stewart | Did she have anybody that she turned to for advice when she needed to make a difficult decision? | 12:57 |
| Mamie Shipman | She had her sister, but they weren't, you just didn't move about as freely as you can move about now. We didn't have ways of getting about. | 13:03 |
| Chris Stewart | Her sister lived in New Jersey by then? | 13:15 |
| Mamie Shipman | She was in Ashbury Park a while and then she was in Jacksonville most of the time, though, in Florida. In fact, she was older than Mama. She came for Mama's funeral. | 13:21 |
| Chris Stewart | When did your mother die? | 13:34 |
| Mamie Shipman | Now, that was in 1960. I remember that zero year. | 13:35 |
| Chris Stewart | You mentioned that you, did you do any traveling? | 13:39 |
| Mamie Shipman | Always wanted to. | 13:56 |
| Chris Stewart | Did you? | 13:58 |
| Mamie Shipman | That's one of my desires, was to travel. I never thought about New York. I always wanted to go to California. | 13:59 |
| Chris Stewart | Did you ever get the opportunity to? | 14:08 |
| Mamie Shipman | I eventually got out there. I got in the desert area. I didn't get into the valley part. | 14:10 |
| Chris Stewart | When did you go there? | 14:15 |
| Mamie Shipman | Oh, let's see. | 14:18 |
| Chris Stewart | Is that after you retired? | 14:20 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah, mm-hmm. I had someone staying with me who had a niece out there. I went out. Then I had somebody to move with. I went out there with her to see her niece. Then my nephew and his brother, one of them's in Washington, state of Washington. The other one's in Arizona. I went out there with my brother-in-law and sister to see them. | 14:23 |
| Chris Stewart | When you were teaching- | 14:59 |
| Mamie Shipman | But that was since I've retired. | 15:01 |
| Chris Stewart | Right. When you were teaching, say during the '40s and '50s when you were teaching, did you travel at all during the summers, take train rides to visit your sister, or the bus? | 15:03 |
| Mamie Shipman | For the most part, I would try to find something to do. | 15:19 |
| Chris Stewart | Here in Charlotte? | 15:23 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. | 15:25 |
| Chris Stewart | Work? | 15:26 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah, for the most part. | 15:28 |
| Chris Stewart | What kinds of work would you find to do during the summer? | 15:28 |
| Mamie Shipman | One year, the first year I came here, I operated an elevator during that summer. | 15:32 |
| Chris Stewart | Really? | 15:38 |
| Mamie Shipman | You just didn't earn that much to do anything with. | 15:40 |
| Chris Stewart | So you had to find summer jobs. | 15:45 |
| Mamie Shipman | When I worked in guidance, I worked at Harding High one summer. That helped get me on my feet better than anything else. | 15:48 |
| Chris Stewart | At Harding High? | 15:59 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm-hmm. | 16:01 |
| Chris Stewart | You were doing guidance there one summer? | 16:02 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah, mm-hmm. Students getting ready to go to college and the credits and whatnot. | 16:03 |
| Chris Stewart | How would you prepare them? How would you help them to prepare? | 16:12 |
| Mamie Shipman | You try to work with what they have. That's what you're going to have to rely on, follow them up to see if they're pursuing. | 16:18 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you recall when you were teaching, seeing any Jim Crow signs in Charlotte? | 16:32 |
| Mamie Shipman | Oh, yeah. Yes, indeed. I saw that before I started teaching. You know you always sat on the back of the bus. I remember that one. You drank at different fountains. That's been there and I don't know when it's going to get away altogether. Come a long way, it's got a long ways to go. | 16:39 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you remember knowing or hearing about anybody who didn't follow the signs, who didn't take account of the signs? | 17:14 |
| Mamie Shipman | No more than, who was the lady who went to drink at the fountain? They had a film on her. | 17:26 |
| Chris Stewart | Miss Jane? | 17:36 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. Yeah, mm-hmm. But all the [indistinct 00:17:43], that's what happened. My brother-in-law was on the bus. We were going to Asheville to a wedding. He went in the store to get something to drink. They wanted him to go down to the back and you know that didn't turn the right thing. That's what create things say. | 17:38 |
| Chris Stewart | Was this when you were teaching? | 18:15 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah, I was teaching then. We were going, it was a friend of my sister's was getting married and she was in the wedding. | 18:17 |
| Chris Stewart | Was it during segregation? | 18:27 |
| Mamie Shipman | That's just any time. | 18:30 |
| Chris Stewart | Let's say, was it before the Civil Rights movement? Let's say that. How's that? | 18:33 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes, indeed. It was before all the segregation got under way. Yes, indeed. | 18:39 |
| Chris Stewart | Did you at any time feel like you were being treated like a second class citizen? | 18:52 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes, many a time. | 18:55 |
| Chris Stewart | Can you give me some examples of times? | 18:58 |
| Mamie Shipman | I can stand down here at Charles. I'll just name that as a store. It wasn't Charles. It was something else, but it could have been Charles. You go there to the lunch counter when you're working to get some lunch. They reach all over you, waiting on everybody and you're standing right there waiting to be served. Now, the clerks are good at that if they are rubbish. Not all of them are rubbish, though, so you can't put them all in one class. | 19:09 |
| Mamie Shipman | You are well aware of how one can be overlooked when you want to overlook them. That's how they play the game. But when something happens, then they want to cry, "Wolf! Wolf!" But that's one thing I always admired in training people for jobs was the fact that they emphasized courtesy, but it doesn't get through to all. But that's one of the answers in salesmanship. They used to say, "Customer before the other." | 19:39 |
| Chris Stewart | Mm-hmm, customer always comes first. | 20:31 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah, customer always comes first. | 20:33 |
| Chris Stewart | I only have a couple more questions to ask you. Do you remember having a hero or a heroine growing up, somebody that you really looked up to? | 20:39 |
| Mamie Shipman | I used to have a cousin that I always thought a lot of, but as I grew older, I weaned away from that. | 20:52 |
| Chris Stewart | Why? | 21:00 |
| Mamie Shipman | I think she—One time, I saw her as somebody ideal and next time I saw her as somebody complaining and finding something wrong with you all the time and whatnot. | 21:02 |
| Chris Stewart | Is there anything that I haven't asked you about that you'd like to be on this tape, this recording, that you feel is important about your life? | 21:24 |
| Mamie Shipman | I can't think of anything right off. | 21:45 |
| Chris Stewart | What I need to do next is, I have a biographical form that accompanies the tape. It's a form that we fill out that includes basically just biographical information about you and your family, and also some information like what clubs you belong to, what organizations, hobbies, those kind of things. We fill them out to accompany the tape so that whoever listens to or reads the transcript of the tape can get a sense of your background, your biography. So if you don't mind, I will get the form out and we can spend a few minutes going through that. It won't take very long. | 21:57 |
| Mamie Shipman | Okay. | 22:53 |
| Chris Stewart | All right? Okay. | 23:01 |
| Mamie Shipman | Let me give you this little lap, do you have something? | 23:03 |
| Chris Stewart | Yes, I have my book right here on my lap. This is fine. Thank you. I need your full name. | 23:05 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mamie Louise Herring Shipman. | 23:13 |
| Chris Stewart | Mamie Louise? | 23:20 |
| Mamie Shipman | Hearn, H-E-A-R-N. | 23:21 |
| Chris Stewart | Is that your maiden name? | 23:23 |
| Mamie Shipman | Maiden name. | 23:26 |
| Chris Stewart | And your current address is 1410 Orbus. | 23:32 |
| Mamie Shipman | Orbus. | 23:33 |
| Chris Stewart | What's the zip code here, ma'am? | 23:36 |
| Mamie Shipman | 28216. | 23:44 |
| Chris Stewart | And your home phone number? | 23:48 |
| Mamie Shipman | 334-6751. | 23:50 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you have a nickname that you were known by? | 23:53 |
| Mamie Shipman | No. It's usually Mamie. | 23:59 |
| Chris Stewart | Mamie. | 24:02 |
| Mamie Shipman | If I hear somebody say, "Mamie Louise," I know it's somebody that knew Mama and Aunt Suzy. They're the ones that called me Mamie Louise all the time. | 24:04 |
| Chris Stewart | Your date of birth? | 24:15 |
| Mamie Shipman | February 9, 1914. | 24:17 |
| Chris Stewart | And you were born here in Charlotte? | 24:24 |
| Mamie Shipman | Jacksonville, Florida. | 24:26 |
| Chris Stewart | What was your husband's name? | 24:38 |
| Mamie Shipman | Russel J. Shipman. | 24:39 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you recall his birth date? | 24:49 |
| Mamie Shipman | April 1, I think, 1914. | 24:51 |
| Chris Stewart | Is he still alive? | 25:01 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. | 25:02 |
| Chris Stewart | Where was he born? | 25:04 |
| Mamie Shipman | Hendersonville, I think, North Carolina. | 25:06 |
| Chris Stewart | And he was a minister? | 25:15 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. | 25:17 |
| Chris Stewart | And your mother's full name? | 25:22 |
| Mamie Shipman | Agnes Good Hearn. | 25:24 |
| Chris Stewart | Did you say that she did keep the E or did she drop the E? | 25:31 |
| Mamie Shipman | She dropped that E. | 25:35 |
| Chris Stewart | Your mother's birth date? | 25:40 |
| Mamie Shipman | January 22. | 25:42 |
| Chris Stewart | You're doing an awfully good job with these dates. | 25:45 |
| Mamie Shipman | Those are some dates have been there all these years. | 25:48 |
| Chris Stewart | Right. January 22. | 25:51 |
| Mamie Shipman | I think it's 1877. | 25:53 |
| Chris Stewart | My. | 25:53 |
| Mamie Shipman | I think it's 1877. | 25:53 |
| Chris Stewart | Did your mom ever tell you any stories about her parents? Did she ever? | 26:02 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm-hmm. I think she tried. She had as a child, her mother had sisters. Her mother was Catholic. Her father belonged to Simpson. They lived in Baltimore and she would go up to Baltimore to see them. She got around more than I did. | 26:08 |
| Chris Stewart | You said your mother died in 1960? | 26:32 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. | 26:34 |
| Chris Stewart | She was born? | 26:34 |
| Mamie Shipman | In Charlotte. She was born there on Main Street somewhere. | 26:36 |
| Chris Stewart | What would you say your mother's occupation was? | 26:45 |
| Mamie Shipman | Maid for the most part. | 26:48 |
| Chris Stewart | She also kept the hotel for a while. | 26:53 |
| Mamie Shipman | Well, that was before she accepted work, I think. | 26:59 |
| Chris Stewart | Okay. Your father's name? | 27:05 |
| Mamie Shipman | Westley E. Hearn. | 27:08 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you know his birth date? | 27:16 |
| Mamie Shipman | I don't know. It's in September, but I don't know. | 27:18 |
| Chris Stewart | Is he still alive? | 27:21 |
| Mamie Shipman | No. He passed. | 27:22 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you recall his- | 27:25 |
| Mamie Shipman | Hmm? | 27:26 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you recall when he died? Did you keep in contact with him? | 27:27 |
| Mamie Shipman | No. I knew he had passed, but I don't remember the date. | 27:33 |
| Chris Stewart | What kind of work did your father do? | 27:37 |
| Mamie Shipman | Postal service. | 27:40 |
| Chris Stewart | That's right. | 27:47 |
| Mamie Shipman | I guess he was still working. | 27:47 |
| Chris Stewart | And you have a sister? | 27:50 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. | 27:51 |
| Chris Stewart | Her name? | 27:52 |
| Mamie Shipman | Suzy. I have a brother, two brothers. Suzy Eula Lie. | 27:53 |
| Chris Stewart | E-U-L? | 28:03 |
| Mamie Shipman | A. | 28:05 |
| Chris Stewart | A. | 28:05 |
| Mamie Shipman | L-I-E, I think that's what it is. She never used that. | 28:07 |
| Chris Stewart | That's her middle name? | 28:11 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. | 28:12 |
| Chris Stewart | What's her— | 28:14 |
| Mamie Shipman | Hearn Collins. | 28:14 |
| Chris Stewart | That's a beautiful name, Eula Lie. Do you recall her birth date? | 28:18 |
| Mamie Shipman | March 16. | 28:26 |
| Chris Stewart | That's my sister's birthday. | 28:28 |
| Mamie Shipman | 1912. | 28:31 |
| Chris Stewart | My sister's birthday. | 28:31 |
| Mamie Shipman | How old is she now? | 28:31 |
| Chris Stewart | And your brother's? | 28:39 |
| Mamie Shipman | Westley E., that's the younger one. Westley E. Hearn, Jr. | 28:40 |
| Chris Stewart | And his birth date? | 28:52 |
| Mamie Shipman | I think it's June 9, but I don't know the date. | 28:57 |
| Chris Stewart | Is this the brother that died? | 28:59 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. | 29:01 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you recall when he died? | 29:01 |
| Mamie Shipman | No, I don't remember the date. | 29:04 |
| Chris Stewart | How old were you? You were pretty young, weren't you? | 29:06 |
| Mamie Shipman | No. I think he was around about 48 when he died. | 29:09 |
| Chris Stewart | Oh, okay. All right, and your other brother? | 29:18 |
| Mamie Shipman | Robert Hearn. He was 10 years old when he died. | 29:21 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you recall his birth date? | 29:33 |
| Mamie Shipman | But I don't remember his birth date. | 29:33 |
| Chris Stewart | Okay. That's fine. You were, were you the second child? | 29:35 |
| Mamie Shipman | No, I'm the fourth child. | 29:42 |
| Chris Stewart | Oh, that's right. You're the baby. | 29:46 |
| Mamie Shipman | That's the way Mama would put it. | 29:50 |
| Chris Stewart | I'm sorry. No, you are right. Okay. Now I'm going to take your residential history. I need to know where you've lived. You first lived in Jacksonville, Florida right? | 29:56 |
| Mamie Shipman | Uh-huh. Then Charlotte. Those are the two places. Did you see Tommy? | 30:10 |
| Chris Stewart | Tommy? | 30:28 |
| Mamie Shipman | Williams. | 30:29 |
| Chris Stewart | Oh, yes. I interviewed Tommy. I interviewed him the first Monday we were here a week ago. | 30:29 |
| Mamie Shipman | Sure enough. | 30:38 |
| Chris Stewart | We interviewed his mother, too. | 30:39 |
| Mamie Shipman | She's a lovely person. | 30:41 |
| Chris Stewart | I didn't get to interview her. | 30:45 |
| Mamie Shipman | Those are my church members. | 30:46 |
| Chris Stewart | Mr. Williams was wonderful to talk to. | 30:50 |
| Mamie Shipman | His father was active. | 30:52 |
| Chris Stewart | He related that his father was very active. | 31:00 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm-hmm. | 31:02 |
| Chris Stewart | We've interviewed quite a few people. | 31:17 |
| Mamie Shipman | I bet you have. | 31:19 |
| Chris Stewart | Your education history. You first started at? | 31:20 |
| Mamie Shipman | The episcopal school. | 31:25 |
| Chris Stewart | St. Michael's? | 31:27 |
| Mamie Shipman | K through three. | 31:27 |
| Chris Stewart | Then you went to Alexander? | 31:44 |
| Mamie Shipman | Alexander Street, four and five. | 31:45 |
| Chris Stewart | Then to Meyer's Street. | 31:55 |
| Mamie Shipman | That was sixth grade. | 31:58 |
| Chris Stewart | Second Ward? | 32:01 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm-hmm. Seventh through 11th. | 32:02 |
| Chris Stewart | And then to Bennett? | 32:10 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. And then to AU. | 32:11 |
| Chris Stewart | What degree did you receive from Bennett? | 32:17 |
| Mamie Shipman | BA. I got a master's of education at Atlanta University. | 32:20 |
| Chris Stewart | At Atlanta! When did you go to Atlanta University? | 32:28 |
| Mamie Shipman | It was around about, I think I completed my work by '50, 1950. | 32:32 |
| Chris Stewart | Did you live alone when you went to Atlanta? | 32:46 |
| Mamie Shipman | No, I was in the dormitory part of the time and I was with a residential home when I was there. | 32:49 |
| Chris Stewart | How was Atlanta different from Bennett? | 32:59 |
| Mamie Shipman | It's a larger place. That's a complex down there, about four colleges right together. | 33:01 |
| Chris Stewart | Morehouse now, isn't it? | 33:10 |
| Mamie Shipman | Morehouse, and Clark, and Spelman. All these scholars in that complex, and Atlanta. | 33:12 |
| Chris Stewart | What was it like to go to such a big city? | 33:24 |
| Mamie Shipman | Tell the truth, it was somewhat like this, but they had more advantages down there. They had more job opportunities down there. Now, they carry their vote. They use their vote down there. | 33:31 |
| Chris Stewart | They did? | 33:43 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. Yes, sir. | 33:45 |
| Chris Stewart | Did you vote from the time you were able to? When did you start voting? | 33:54 |
| Mamie Shipman | I don't know exactly when I started, tell the truth. I don't know exactly when I started. | 34:01 |
| Chris Stewart | Do you remember who you first voted for? | 34:10 |
| Mamie Shipman | No. Was it Hoover? Right along in there, that must have been the time. | 34:12 |
| Chris Stewart | Okay. Now we're going to talk about your work history. | 34:29 |
| Mamie Shipman | Now, I didn't give you North Carolina State. I got my guidance certificate from North Carolina State at Raleigh. I completed my work there. | 34:32 |
| Chris Stewart | When was that? | 34:51 |
| Mamie Shipman | It must have been around about 1951 or '52. | 34:54 |
| Chris Stewart | Okay. Is there anything else I should put on the education? | 35:09 |
| Mamie Shipman | I went to D.C. one summer. I went several places getting a required subject in. I went to Teacher's College. | 35:13 |
| Chris Stewart | Where is that located? | 35:28 |
| Mamie Shipman | New York. It's Columbia University. It's a branch of Columbia. | 35:31 |
| Chris Stewart | Mm-hmm. | 35:38 |
| Mamie Shipman | The other, you can just leave that other off because I was just there for an inter session at North Carolina State at Durham. | 35:40 |
| Chris Stewart | Oh, at Central. North Carolina Central. | 35:47 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes. It was an inter session that I went to. | 35:52 |
| Chris Stewart | What were you taking when you went to the Teacher's College in New York? | 35:55 |
| Mamie Shipman | I was completing the requirements for teacher's certificate for guidance. | 35:58 |
| Chris Stewart | Oh, I see. This was in the '50s. | 36:03 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm-hmm. | 36:04 |
| Chris Stewart | I see. | 36:06 |
| Mamie Shipman | I got my degree, but it didn't have all the requirements for a guidance certificate. | 36:10 |
| Chris Stewart | For the guidance, right. | 36:16 |
| Mamie Shipman | My degree was in master's of education. | 36:17 |
| Chris Stewart | So you had to take more courses in order to get your certificate, right? | 36:22 |
| Mamie Shipman | Uh-huh. | 36:25 |
| Chris Stewart | Okay. Now we'd like to list your jobs, most important jobs beginning from the most recent to the earliest, the jobs that you consider most important. | 36:28 |
| Mamie Shipman | I'd say guidance. | 36:45 |
| Chris Stewart | This was with the Charlotte Mecklenburg schools? | 36:50 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm-hmm. Somebody just called me the other day and said it would be 20 years next year since elementary guidance was started and was trying to see if he could get in touch with some of the people who were in there. | 36:53 |
| Chris Stewart | Since they haven't had elementary guidance for 20 years? | 37:11 |
| Mamie Shipman | It would be 20 years old next year, not this year. | 37:17 |
| Chris Stewart | When were you doing guidance? Was this right up to your retirement? | 37:26 |
| Mamie Shipman | No. I did guidance, I retired from there, from guidance. I retired from guidance. | 37:30 |
| Chris Stewart | And you did it for 16 years? | 37:38 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. All of it wasn't elementary. Part of it was done in junior high. | 37:40 |
| Chris Stewart | Okay. What about previous to that? The most important jobs to you. | 37:48 |
| Mamie Shipman | You've got the guidance. You've got classroom teaching. | 37:57 |
| Chris Stewart | What grades, one through six? No, you were doing junior high as well. | 38:04 |
| Mamie Shipman | For the most part, I had fourth grade, fourth through seventh. | 38:10 |
| Chris Stewart | And you really did the classroom teaching up until the time that you started the guidance, right? | 38:15 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah, mm-hmm. | 38:28 |
| Chris Stewart | How come you decided to switch over to guidance from classroom teaching? | 38:38 |
| Mamie Shipman | Saw the need of some assistance to the principal in dealing with students. | 38:44 |
| Chris Stewart | And he thought that you were most suited? | 38:53 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mm-hmm. | 38:55 |
| Chris Stewart | That's a nice complement. | 38:57 |
| Mamie Shipman | Mr. Molan was there then. | 39:01 |
| Chris Stewart | Have you ever received any awards or honors, or held any offices? | 39:06 |
| Mamie Shipman | What kind of honors? I was in the Honor Society at Bennett. | 39:15 |
| Chris Stewart | Those are exactly the kinds of things. Has any organization ever honored you? | 39:21 |
| Mamie Shipman | No. I just got a recognition yesterday in church group. | 39:31 |
| Chris Stewart | How about in your church? Have you ever held any offices in your church? | 39:41 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. I've been through that. Did I tell you AKA sorority? | 39:44 |
| Chris Stewart | Right. | 39:58 |
| Mamie Shipman | North Carolina Teachers, right now it's the retired, but I belong to the teacher's organization for the school, NCAE. NEA. | 40:01 |
| Chris Stewart | What about your current religious denomination? | 40:32 |
| Mamie Shipman | United Methodist, Simpson Gillespie United Methodist. | 40:36 |
| Chris Stewart | Have you always belonged to- | 40:48 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yeah. That's the one I told you I started off at three months. | 40:49 |
| Chris Stewart | Right. I was impressed when Mr. Williams told me he was a lifelong member of Simpson Gillespie. I'm certainly more impressed with your lifelong membership. That's really amazing. Okay. Any organization, civic, community that you've belonged to? We can put down AKA again down here and the clubs that you mentioned. | 41:00 |
| Mamie Shipman | Cosmopolitan. That's a social. | 41:34 |
| Chris Stewart | And the La, what was the name of that? Refresh? | 41:42 |
| Mamie Shipman | Cosmopolitan? Oh, La Coterie? We dissolved that so long ago. | 41:45 |
| Chris Stewart | Any other? | 41:56 |
| Mamie Shipman | No. | 41:57 |
| Chris Stewart | Okay. This last question is to ask you about any hobbies, or any favorite sayings, or anything that you'd like included on this biographical information. | 41:58 |
| Mamie Shipman | Right now, I just go to ceramics. See all these things around here? | 42:16 |
| Chris Stewart | Yes. You've made these? | 42:21 |
| Mamie Shipman | I made, that last one I made was that pea fowl there. | 42:25 |
| Chris Stewart | Oh, my goodness. That's gorgeous. | 42:30 |
| Mamie Shipman | But I've made several things because I've gotten so I can't trim, so I get Peggy to do the trimming for me. | 42:33 |
| Chris Stewart | Oh, I see. | 42:44 |
| Mamie Shipman | Like on that goal down there, on that stand. | 42:44 |
| Chris Stewart | Wow. Do you paint them yourself? | 42:48 |
| Mamie Shipman | Yes. Now, I ain't put that on there. I made that clock and those vases. That's how I use my time. | 42:53 |
| Chris Stewart | Okay. Well, that's all completed now. The final thing that we need to do is fill out an interview agreement. Excuse me, I'm losing my voice. I'm spending a lot of time here. | 43:13 |
| Mamie Shipman | It's time consuming. That's the thing that gets you in school, the paperwork. | 43:29 |
| Chris Stewart | Yeah, it is. But you know, I love school. | 43:36 |
| Mamie Shipman | It's nice. | 43:40 |
| Chris Stewart | It's wonderful. | 43:41 |
| Mamie Shipman | When I'm on even keel. | 43:43 |
| Chris Stewart | Yeah. What we have is, we have, in order for us to use or to put this tape and this transcript in the archives, in a collection both at Duke University and in each of the communities, we need to fill out an interview agreement between you and the team, basically. In this case, I'm representing the team. The interview agreement states that your tape will be included in this collection and that the collection will be housed, the entire collection will be housed at Duke University and then there will also be a portion of the collection, the Charlotte portion, that comes back here. | 43:45 |
| Chris Stewart | Now, we have two different interview agreements. One is without restrictions, which means that what you're agreeing to is to allow the tape and the transcript of the tape, once somebody transcribes it, to be used without any restrictions to it. So that if a student wanted to come in and listen to your tape and write about teachers, for example, that student could use your transcript without any kind of restriction. The teacher wanted to use it in a classroom, they could go ahead and use it. | 44:35 |
| Chris Stewart | The other agreement is that of with restrictions. If you wanted to place any kind of restriction on the tape or the transcript, you could. Some of the things that people do is, they ask that if somebody is going to use the tape or the transcript for any purpose, that they need to contact- | 45:18 |
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