Anita Thornton (primary interviewee) and Irma Bland interview recording, 1993 June 16

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Karen Ferguson	— by you both talking about the home in which Ms. Thornton grew up in, talking a little bit about— and the neighborhood in which that home was.	0:01
Anita Thornton	Okay. I lived— You're ready?	0:10
Karen Ferguson	Mm-hmm.	0:13
Anita Thornton	Okay. I lived in Brooklyn, where I live now, on Caldwell Street, which eventually became Independence Boulevard. I lived with my mother, father, grandparents. I'm a graduate of Second Ward High School, and I went on to Bennett College and graduated there, retired in Charlotte-Mecklenburg Schools as an administrative secretary.	0:13
Anita Thornton	And I've been with the First Baptist Church all my life. But for things we did as growing up, went to the segregated playgrounds, connected with schools, playing in the neighborhood, friends that you had established, some of these friends you have kept until now, present time.	0:41
Anita Thornton	Of course, the recreation was nothing like it is now. We did not, perhaps, do any of the things that the kids do now for recreation, but we found fun and enjoyed what we did do.	1:04
Karen Ferguson	What was Brooklyn like back then as a neighborhood?	1:27
Irma Bland	We didn't have that picture, did we in Brooklyn?	1:35
Anita Thornton	Just the big family. I mean, you knew just about everybody who was around you. Of course there were a lot of citizens in Brooklyn in the section where we were, we were familiar and knew most of the people there. Got along well, without violence, I'll say.	1:39
Anita Thornton	There were some sections in Brooklyn that, I think, have been depicted as violent, but we were not in that section. And of course that would be considered nothing compared to violence now. Everybody knew everybody else. We just enjoyed being a part of that.	2:03
Irma Bland	I want to tell her about my mother being a seamstress.	2:28
Karen Ferguson	Yeah. Okay.	2:28
Anita Thornton	But this won't matter.	2:28
Irma Bland	No, I wanted her to see that I—	2:28
Anita Thornton	What? See what?	2:47
Irma Bland	Kind of the suit that my mother made. Yeah. I had one in here. I had a newspaper. Newspaper. And my father was a brick mason.	2:49
Karen Ferguson	And did they both— Did you grow up in Brooklyn as well?	3:09
Irma Bland	Yeah.	3:12
Karen Ferguson	Yes you did. Oh, that's a wonderful photo. Is this— Now is this your—	3:13
Irma Bland	That's my mother.	3:17
Karen Ferguson	That's your mother? And she made the suit she's wearing?	3:17
Irma Bland	That's right.	3:25
Karen Ferguson	Right.	3:25
Anita Thornton	We had several pictures of that. It was in the neighbor's last year.	3:26
Karen Ferguson	That's a wonderful photo.	3:28
Irma Bland	[indistinct 00:03:40].	3:28
Karen Ferguson	So when did your parents come to Brooklyn? Do you know? Were they born there as well?	3:42
Irma Bland	Yeah, my mother was in that area, but my father was from South Carolina.	3:47
Karen Ferguson	South Carolina. And why did he move to Charlotte?	3:54
Irma Bland	Why did he?	4:01
Karen Ferguson	Mm-hmm.	4:02
Irma Bland	He was working. He had graduated from South Carolina State.	4:03
Karen Ferguson	Right.	4:09
Irma Bland	And he was a brick mason, and how people go from place to place when they find a better environment and better jobs. And he was one of a— He was the top brick mason, and that's where he located in Charlotte.	4:09
Karen Ferguson	Was there—	4:34
Irma Bland	We were on South Caldwell Street for a number of years until the Brooklyn was relocated, and we moved out in this area.	4:35
Karen Ferguson	So this is the same home— You grew up in the same home that—	4:52
Anita Thornton	That's correct.	4:56
Irma Bland	Yeah. That's right.	4:57
Karen Ferguson	Did they— When did— When your parents— When did your parents buy that house or build it?	4:58
Anita Thornton	The house originally belonged to my grandmother's grandmother.	5:04
Karen Ferguson	Really?	5:07
Irma Bland	Yeah, to my great grandmother.	5:14
Anita Thornton	To her great grandmother.	5:14
Karen Ferguson	And what— Do you know anything about her, about those relatives, what they did in Brooklyn?	5:15
Irma Bland	They were just ordinary working people.	5:21
Karen Ferguson	Your father— was there a lot of work for brick masons in Charlotte?	5:30
Irma Bland	At times, yeah.	5:36
Karen Ferguson	Did he work for both Black and White—	5:38
Irma Bland	Yeah, he worked for White. They had these jobs that they were construction— They were in charge of the jobs. And he did a lot of building, different buildings in Charlotte, which have been torn down. Yes. But he—	5:44
Anita Thornton	I think he also worked for the J.A. Jones, did he not?	6:12
Irma Bland	Yeah. J.A. Jones Construction Company.	6:15
Karen Ferguson	Now was that a big construction company?	6:18
Irma Bland	Yeah. That was a big construction company in— What is that? It was another one that he worked for, but he worked for the largest construction company. And then he was— Later years, he retired, and he was secretary of the Brick Mason Union. And that was, at that time, that was integrated.	6:23
Karen Ferguson	When you were growing up, were there both Black and White brick masons?	6:52
Irma Bland	Yeah. But yeah, mostly, there were Black who held good jobs at that time, but since that time, it seemed like it has become a profession that the Whites, because the money, they really make a nice salary.	6:57
Karen Ferguson	So your father was able to earn a good living?	7:19
Irma Bland	Yes, indeed. And I went to college in Atlanta at Atlanta University.	7:21
Karen Ferguson	Who were some of your neighbors when you were growing up in Brooklyn? What did they do for a living?	7:34
Irma Bland	Some of my friends, they all went to college. Most of them went to college, and they employed as teachers here. There were about three in one house there, the Harris, and they were employed as teachers.	7:43
Karen Ferguson	So this was when you were a girl?	8:04
Irma Bland	Yeah. When we were growing up.	8:06
Karen Ferguson	Right, right. Was the neighborhood the same when your daughter was growing up? Had it changed at all since your childhood?	8:13
Irma Bland	Not too much.	8:20
Anita Thornton	I don't think too much. I think that, and even when I was brought up, it was Caldwell Street part of the time, but as they widened it, we became Independence Boulevard, and we were fortunate enough to have enough land that instead of having to move the first time, we could roll the house back. So we remained there, but they widened Independence. That's when they ask that we relocate.	8:23
Karen Ferguson	Now was this with all the other urban renewal that was going on?	8:51
Anita Thornton	Right. It was probably earlier. Probably earlier. We came out here in 1954.	8:54
Karen Ferguson	Can you kind of recreate the sense of community that you were talking about before? Talk a little bit more specifically about what neighbors did for each other and what the relationships between people were in your area.	9:04
Anita Thornton	The relationships were just like one big family. You had a need, and of course, you felt free enough to go to your neighbor and your friend and expressed that need, and certainly if they could assist you, they were willing to do that.	9:22
Anita Thornton	Charlotte's becoming a more metropolis— metropolitan city. But we are fortunate that in the neighborhood that we now live, that we still have that neighborhood feeling.	9:36
Anita Thornton	And Brooklyn, as I said, we were sensitive to the needs of each other. We were able to, if we could meet the needs or help meet the needs, we were ready to do that. Of course, that was in my time and certainly even more so the time of my mother.	9:52
Karen Ferguson	Can you remember any specific incidents of people helping each other?	10:10
Anita Thornton	I remember a friend of ours up the street who had lost— This lady had lost her mother. And I recall how that my grandmother went up there and spent the night with them after the death of the mother, so that person would have somebody there with there, specifically at the site. [indistinct 00:10:52].	10:22
Karen Ferguson	Was there anybody in the neighborhood besides your immediate family whom you looked up to particularly or whom you were close to? Other adults.	10:51
Anita Thornton	What would you say? The Spencers who live right next to us. We were close to them.	11:11
Irma Bland	And the Cup family?	11:15
Anita Thornton	Yeah. Cup.	11:15
Irma Bland	And the Harris family.	11:19
Anita Thornton	Closeness there. The Cup family, really strong as I recall. I recall specifically because they had— Please, excuse me.	11:27
Karen Ferguson	Do you remember anyone when you were growing up?	11:41
Irma Bland	Well, schoolmates and some of them, we had— They were further down in Brooklyn on Alexander Street. And we had— But as that— They moved over in this area. And one, I don't know whether you talked to Ms. Aldridge on—	11:44
Karen Ferguson	Mm-hmm. Mildred Aldridge?	12:09
Irma Bland	Mildred Aldridge. Well, that is our dear friend. Just like her family. We member of the same church and graduated from high school together. And that is one. And then we had— I don't know whether you have been to Ms. Mini McKee?	12:10
Karen Ferguson	I think someone else has spoken to her.	12:34
Irma Bland	Yeah. See we relocated because Ms. Mildred Aldridge was in the Cherry section. And Mini McKee was not far from us and [indistinct 00:12:54], they were in the Brooklyn, the old Brooklyn section. And Cecilia Wilson.	12:36
Karen Ferguson	You were saying that your mother was a seamstress?	13:03
Irma Bland	Yes.	13:05
Karen Ferguson	Did she work as seamstress all the time you were growing up?	13:06
Irma Bland	Yes. Worked in the home. I wish I could find that write-up. I moved it.	13:10
Anita Thornton	That was Kett from Texas, Ma.	13:35
Irma Bland	Why?	13:37
Anita Thornton	I told her I'd call her back.	13:37
Karen Ferguson	Actually—	13:40
Anita Thornton	They were really strong, and I was springing with the girl, and there were three boys and one girl because I was the only child, but I would always make it my business to go stop by their home in the morning because they had so much going on up there, and I just enjoyed it. And so I came very close to that family there. That one girl was as strong as all the boys.	13:44
Karen Ferguson	She had to be.	14:11
Anita Thornton	[indistinct 00:14:17].	14:12
Karen Ferguson	What kinds of things did you do? What kinds of games did you play?	14:16
Anita Thornton	Well, liked jumping rope and models. What are those things? Jacks. It's been so long since I was a girl, I forget—	14:20
Karen Ferguson	It's all right.	14:33
Anita Thornton	Dodgeball, softball, anything with the bat, with a ball.	14:37
Karen Ferguson	Did you ever get into any scrapes when you were growing up?	14:46
Anita Thornton	Oh, yes. We'd get into some. I was sort of tinted with my girlfriend, whose name was Mary. She would always be standing up for me.	14:50
Irma Bland	That's what— mm-hmm. That was in a paper, here.	15:06
Karen Ferguson	Yeah. That's great. They did a nice job at reproducing the photograph, too.	15:18
Irma Bland	Yeah. They did.	15:21
Karen Ferguson	You were talking about your mother— There— Did she— You said she worked all the time. She worked out of the home.	15:24
Irma Bland	Yeah.	15:35
Karen Ferguson	That's right?	15:35
Anita Thornton	Not out of the home. No.	15:36
Irma Bland	No, not in the home.	15:37
Karen Ferguson	Well, she wrote— Yeah, in her house.	15:38
Irma Bland	Yeah. We're in the—	15:39
Karen Ferguson	Sorry. Sorry. And who were customers?	15:41
Irma Bland	Oh, some of the neighbors. She had quite a few people that came from all around.	15:47
Karen Ferguson	Mm-hmm. Did she have any White customers?	15:53
Irma Bland	Sometimes she would go out. Somebody would call her right to do something in their home— Just— but most of her customers were Black.	15:58
Karen Ferguson	Right. Were there many— Was the Black business district in, or the business district in Brooklyn, was it well developed when you were growing up?	16:13
Irma Bland	Well, we had— On First Street, we had what was called the Blake Building, and there was a Mr. Dale who had a filling station, and there were some apartments over. And then my father, we had a little store there called the Three L Bargain Center, but it was back in those times when Black did not have much business. So we wasn't there long. But that was that first street, and then there was some cafes there, too, on the corner.	16:27
Karen Ferguson	When do you remember that? Both of you, when do you remember that when the business district in Brooklyn really sort of expanded? Because I know it was the place to patronize Black businesses in Charlotte.	17:25
Anita Thornton	Most of it was on Second Street, I think.	17:40
Karen Ferguson	Right.	17:46
Anita Thornton	I don't— Would you say about 1930 or something like that, 1935?	17:47
Irma Bland	I believe. That book that we had over—	17:49
Karen Ferguson	I've seen that.	17:57
Anita Thornton	You've seen that?	18:00
Irma Bland	You've seen that.	18:01
Karen Ferguson	Do you know have any sense of why there was an expansion of businesses at that time?	18:04
Anita Thornton	Well, I think that it was because of the fact that Blacks had come into the realization that they could go into business and do well. But there were several shoe shops and drug stores on Second Street, a theater, little cafes. What was that little thing?	18:11
Irma Bland	And on McDowell.	18:31
Anita Thornton	Yeah. On McDowell too. There was something there in the back of a building up— There's some kind of gardens that you all would talk about. You'd go up there and have a good time. On Second Street, Ma?	18:32
Irma Bland	Yeah.	18:49
Anita Thornton	Because that was before my time. I wasn't alive then.	18:49
Irma Bland	Yeah. You weren't—	18:55
Karen Ferguson	What kind of place was this?	18:55
Irma Bland	It was a drug store, and then they added to, and we would go out, and they have ice cream. Then we would be out in the rear, but I think— And we had quite a few churches in Brooklyn.	18:55
Anita Thornton	We lived right across from what was then the Congregational Church, but now that has suppose— That's down, and in that place is really about where First Baptist Church is kind of similar. The White Baptists on Davidson Street, and there was a— It was really the [indistinct 00:19:41] place that came and built there for the Congregational Church, but it's no longer there, so that's [indistinct 00:19:46], but it's that long. It's no longer there.	19:18
Irma Bland	And we had Grace Methodist Church, and—	19:49
Anita Thornton	That still stands.	19:53
Irma Bland	It's there. We had Bethlehem, gave way to there and Friendship Baptist. They had to move on account of the reconstruction, reorganization, rather, Brooklyn.	19:54
Karen Ferguson	Mm-hmm. Back to your childhood, you were saying that you sometimes got into some scrapes and things. What would happen if somebody saw you misbehaving on the street?	20:19
Anita Thornton	Oh my goodness. That would be the greatest sin, I guess. Of course, discipline problems, we did not have too much of. Because only thing about it, we didn't have as many forces, outside forces pulling on the generation during that time as they do now.	20:32
Anita Thornton	So you can understand that the temptations were not as great, but they were there. But I mean, you just better than to be disrespectful, I'll say. And you do better to get yourself into problems fighting, and things like that. Didn't have too much of that. Every now and then you'd have—	20:50
Irma Bland	But if one elderly saw you doing something, you would be reported to your parent before you got home.	21:15
Karen Ferguson	Did you— Let me think here. Were there any parts of Brooklyn that you were not allowed to go to when you were growing up?	21:27
Anita Thornton	The lower end, also. We didn't frequent there.	21:46
Karen Ferguson	Right. Who lived down, then, in the lower end?	21:53
Anita Thornton	Well, they were— I can't call their names.	21:57
Karen Ferguson	No, but what kind of people?	22:00
Anita Thornton	The people there were not as careful. They were not as disciplined as the people up on our end. They had nice people there too. They had nice people there too, but sometimes you're just a victim of your circumstances, and you can't do any better, but you were those people who lived at the lower end of Brooklyn, they had nice families, but we just— You didn't go too far from your residence.	22:02
Anita Thornton	You really stayed right around, and I'm sure you've talked to Vermell Diamond. We lived in the— I'm older than they, but we were reasonably close. They were on Stonewall, and then it was Independence that, and we were farther up, but we— Her parents and my parents are friends, and they had grown up together, her father and my mom. But you just didn't stray too far away from your home.	22:34
Karen Ferguson	Right. Did you go to any other Black neighborhoods in Charlotte? Did you—	23:09
Anita Thornton	Yes, but we would go over to visit Mrs. Aldridge's family. They lived in Cherry. They lived originally in Cherry. We would go there, and she had a sister who was about my age, just a little older. I would go over there and so maybe spend a day or two at Christmas, something like that. That would be our vacation, and then with that annual visit to us was when the House of Prayer would have their parade, which would be the second Sunday in September, and their family would come to us.	23:16
Karen Ferguson	But otherwise you wouldn't really visit them?	23:54
Anita Thornton	Oh yes. We would go back and forth sometimes to Cherry. And that would be mainly— And our church was in Third Ward, so I suppose we'd go there, but that would really be the main places that we would go.	23:57
Karen Ferguson	Right. You mentioned the House of Prayer and the parade. Was that a big event every year?	24:18
Anita Thornton	It was. It was a very big event because the parade would come right from the corner of our house, we would turn at Boundary and Caldwell, and we were just about a block from that corner and a very big event. All the pretty girls who were members there would be riding the flutes and the bands, and he was referred to as Sweet Daddy Grace, and they would have a week of convocation. And a lot of times, we would go down there just to see and enjoy what was going on. That would be recreation.	24:23
Karen Ferguson	What kinds of things— In this week of convocation, what was the—	25:08
Anita Thornton	Well, they would have preaching and singing and money collecting.	25:12
Karen Ferguson	Right. What did you all think about Daddy Grace and the House of Prayer?	25:20
Anita Thornton	Well, we felt that that was something personal. We did have respect for them because you would sell them here. I mean, if these people being in trouble, even in school, those kids were very well-mannered and very well behaved. Even as I was working with the schools, you could tell that they were really disciplined and very well behaved. But that just wasn't the religion that we were brought up against. So we did not steer from that. But it was respected.	25:34
Karen Ferguson	Right. What kind of people joined the House of Prayer?	26:02
Anita Thornton	Well, in earlier years, I think the people who connected themselves were—	26:09
Irma Bland	Were people who were not members of any church he got.	26:13
Anita Thornton	And he made everybody feel that they were needed, and they were participants, that he had the band, and he would have the nurses guild. He would have some type of organization because just about everybody could relate to it. And I really think that was his secret for success, making people think that everybody's important.	26:20
Karen Ferguson	So there would be people— Often people who had fallen from other churches or had fallen behind?	26:39
Anita Thornton	Probably so, but—	26:44
Irma Bland	Maybe.	26:44
Anita Thornton	Probably some, though, who hadn't even connected themselves with churches. What were you going to say, Ma?	26:45
Irma Bland	Yeah. I was just saying some might have followed him, but most of the people who were out of the church, they were the ones that joined. And then, like I say, some people who were in church, because they had a lot of organizations, and when they would parade, they would all have their different dress on. My mother made a lot of their costumes that they had.	26:51
Karen Ferguson	What kind of costumes were these?	27:28
Irma Bland	Not costumes. They were dresses that they had.	27:29
Anita Thornton	Like long dresses, and some of them would be in uniforms, like the nurses guild, something like that, they would be in uniforms, and every group would have a specific uniform, a dress code, I'll say for the parade every year.	27:35
Karen Ferguson	What was this nurses guild that you were talking about?	27:53
Anita Thornton	Well, I guess if somebody would get sick, then they would be trained maybe to give them a little ammonia or something like that. Nothing professional, I don't think. I can't speak because I was not a member there, but that was my assumption.	27:57
Karen Ferguson	So they would deliver healthcare to people in the church?	28:11
Anita Thornton	Yeah. A lot of times in the church, and a lot of times during the parade, somebody would fall out. They would be— They'd pick them up and probably administer to them and put them on a float or ride. There was a lot of walking, and then there would be some riding too.	28:16
Karen Ferguson	What was the nature of the— What was the nature of the beliefs of the House of Prayer, and what kinds of things did they have to— Did the people who— Were there certain codes of behavior and morality that they had to follow that other people did not? Was it strict?	28:30
Anita Thornton	I really can't say because I'm not knowledgeable in that. But as I forestated, I could tell the difference. We could really tell the difference. The kids, they were very well disciplined. So that must have been one of their codes of behavior, discipline and respect. That's all I can say because— But by not being a member, not really being inside, knowing what the objectives and what the requirements are.	28:49
Karen Ferguson	Did you have any friends who were members of the House of Prayer?	29:17
Anita Thornton	I did not.	29:19
Karen Ferguson	Mm-hmm. Okay. Maybe we could talk a little bit about schools. What schools did you attend, Mrs. Bland?	29:20
Irma Bland	First I attended Fairview School. That was when we lived in Biddleville. That was the closest school to, and then came back over my street, and then Second Ward.	29:39
Karen Ferguson	High school.	29:56
Irma Bland	Yeah. The first year that they built Second Ward.	29:57
Karen Ferguson	If Second Ward hadn't been built, where would you have gone for high school then? Or would you have been able?	30:04
Irma Bland	We did not have a high school then. They built the Second Ward, I believe, in 1924 or 1923.	30:08
Karen Ferguson	Right. So you lived in Biddleville, as well, when you were growing up?	30:20
Irma Bland	Yeah. I lived in Biddleville and attended Fairview until we moved to South Caldwell Street.	30:24
Karen Ferguson	Why did you move from Biddleville to Brooklyn?	30:35
Irma Bland	Because my great-grandmother passed, and she wanted my mother to have the home. And we moved there. And that was like moving to the city for us because we were near Johnson C. Smith. That's where we lived on West Trade Street for years.	30:38
Irma Bland	But we would come in, we would ride— We would have to walk to in front of Johnson C. Smith to catch the street car. And we thought that was the greatest thing because then we would say we were going to town. We would go to South Caldwell Street. We had trolley cars then. Street cars, we called them.	31:04
Karen Ferguson	Mm-hmm. What else was a big change moving down to Brooklyn from living in Biddleville for you?	31:38
Irma Bland	Well, it was just like going into a new, into a city. We enjoyed it. And while my great-grandmother lived, we would come in and she would have everything fixed for us. And we enjoyed that. When she passed, my mother inherited her home. And so my father just— They talked it over, and she sold that home in Biddleville and moved to Caldwell Street. We moved to the city.	31:48
Karen Ferguson	What do you remember enjoying about going to school, Fairview Elementary and Myers Street School?	32:28
Irma Bland	Well, enjoyed them. The fellowship with your friends— That enjoyed that, and coming on— studying hard. Enjoyed the teachers.	32:40
Karen Ferguson	Did you have any favorite teachers while you were there?	33:06
Irma Bland	Not really. I liked them all.	33:11
Karen Ferguson	Were you ever disciplined by your teachers?	33:16
Irma Bland	Sometime.	33:20
Karen Ferguson	And what would they do? What kinds of things would you do for them to have to discipline you?	33:22
Anita Thornton	Probably talk.	33:32
Irma Bland	Huh?	33:32
Anita Thornton	I said probably talking.	33:32
Irma Bland	Yeah. I may be called down for talking or something like that.	33:34
Karen Ferguson	And how would they discipline you?	33:46
Irma Bland	Oh, they would just talk to you. They didn't— Or report— Well, would tell you, I'm going to call your mother. I will tell your mother about how you act. And maybe you might be talking, and not realizing that they heard you. I saw you talking. You know how you would sneak. Of course you all didn't have to do that.	33:49
Irma Bland	And then they will say, I see you. And probably they'd say, want you to stay after school. And then if I would be late coming home, then I would get disciplined again. Why? The question would be, why were you talking? Why were you disrespectful? But you know how kids going to talk.	34:21
Karen Ferguson	Mm-hmm. Did— Were your parents involved in your schooling?	34:44
Irma Bland	All the time.	34:46
Karen Ferguson	In what way?	34:49
Irma Bland	Oh, that you have— We have what they had called PTA. You know, they would go to see about your report card if you needed any— if you were failing anything, but I generally kept my average up. But they would just go in and talk that at that time or not like this time. You could really go in and sit down and talk. And they had, what they call, parent PTA like they have now.	34:51
Karen Ferguson	Did you learn— What kinds of things did you learn in school?	35:30
Irma Bland	Well, I attempted to sew, but I never did learn to sew because my mother sewed, and if I couldn't get it all fixed together— I probably would get it tangled up and couldn't fix it, my mother would take it and fix it. But that's about all because I never did take to sewing until—	35:36
Anita Thornton	But you all did have the basics, like reading and writing.	36:06
Irma Bland	Yeah. When you were coming up.	36:12
Karen Ferguson	When you finished elementary school, did most of your friends go on to high school?	36:15
Irma Bland	Yeah, most of them. Most of them because our first year, I mean, because it was ninth— We went through ninth grade, and then when we— at first ninth grade down at the elementary school, Myers Street, and then a lot of times— When my brother, for instance, when he finished— See they didn't go any farther than ninth grade, and most of the students had to go to another city. They went to— They could get in Johnson C. Smith, but most of them, they didn't have the— Finish the high school until 1924. That was the first graduating class.	36:20
Karen Ferguson	So people went to Johnson C. Smith for high school sometimes?	37:19
Irma Bland	Sometimes. Whey would, yeah— They had way back there, as I can remember, they had a high school. They took in high school graduates. I mean took in those that came from the ninth grade, something like that.	37:21
Karen Ferguson	Do you think that you had better opportunities because you were able— I mean, in terms of not just you, but you and your friends, did you have better opportunities because you could go to high school?	37:44
Irma Bland	Yes.	37:55
Karen Ferguson	What could you do with the high school education that you couldn't do with a ninth grade education?	37:56
Irma Bland	Well, [indistinct 00:38:03], you would learn more and you would be qualified to go to college. You would be able to stand the exams, do a little better when you went. But it was kind of difficult because it was the first class that graduated from Second Ward and a lot of things that we didn't have. You really had to study to keep up with your class when you went to college.	38:02
Karen Ferguson	Did you ever learn any Black history when you were going to school?	38:39
Irma Bland	Did you do what?	38:42
Karen Ferguson	Did you ever learn any Black history when you were going to school, about Black people in the past or Black authors or famous Black people?	38:43
Irma Bland	Yes. We had that. When I went to college, we studied that. We had that.	38:52
Karen Ferguson	Right. But in high school, you didn't learn anything?	38:59
Irma Bland	Yes. We had.	39:01
Karen Ferguson	Oh, yeah? Where would you learn about that in high school?	39:02
Irma Bland	In our English class, something like that. Have a history month, Black history month. That has been for through the years.	39:06
Karen Ferguson	Right. And where did you go to school?	39:23
Anita Thornton	Elementary?	39:26
Karen Ferguson	Yeah, elementary school.	39:26
Anita Thornton	Well, I went to— My first grade was at Isabella Wyche. It was over Third Ward because they were constructing the new Myers Street. And then from second grade on to sixth, I went to Myers Street. Graduated from Second Ward.	39:28
Karen Ferguson	Right. What did you like about school?	39:43
Anita Thornton	Well, I enjoyed the fellowship with your friends and classmates. You had a fun time. Of course, you enjoyed your status and all. It was a nice relationship that you established that with teachers and your classmates.	39:48
Karen Ferguson	Did you have a favorite teacher or teacher whom you felt very close?	40:09
Anita Thornton	Yes, I did. Either she was deceased, now. Mrs. Laura Carson. She was a very few— Been a friend of our family since church friends, established a relationship with her as one of my teachers.	40:14
Karen Ferguson	What was it about her that— How did she help you?	40:33
Anita Thornton	She was very concerned about me. I was fortunate to have teachers who were really concerned about students, and she sort of jacked me up if she saw me getting out of hand. One day I came late. The principal had told us that if we were late again, he was going to send us back home.	40:40
Anita Thornton	And so of course, I said, I would always stop up to the Strongs and a young lady and I, we would be late just about every day because we'd be sitting up there talking. When I got there, I went to her room, and told her I had to go back home because I was late and couldn't be in school that day.	41:02
Anita Thornton	I got home and was there for a short time with my grandmother, and I looked up, my mother was coming. Mrs. Carson had called her on the job to let her know that I was called back home, and I didn't get to stay home. I thought I was going to get to stay home that day with my grandmother, who's just a little bit more lenient on me. I get back down Second Ward School, stay there, but those things you remember, but they're not that significant.	41:25
Karen Ferguson	No. They are significant because it gives a sense of what things were like and how people took care of you.	41:54
Anita Thornton	That's right.	42:00
Karen Ferguson	Other than— Do you remember ever that your teachers played favorites with the students at school?	42:04
Anita Thornton	Well, I think that— I guess they did. I think every teacher has favorites. It's just natural for you to— The ones that don't give quite as much trouble, you do look on a little bit more favorably than you do those who kind of ruffle you up. You shouldn't do it, but it's normal and natural that you do.	42:11
Karen Ferguson	Did you— What kinds of things did you learn in school?	42:35
Anita Thornton	Well, my favorite subject was English. When my graduation, I received the English award. I received a scholarship Bennett College, and I was just about— My mother and I came to sewing, and I didn't do well in that, but bring it home. My grandmother would help me with that, the basics.	42:38
Anita Thornton	We were always able to master those. We just had a favorable relationship— experience at Second Ward, and teachers were very caring. They jacked you up if they saw you getting out of line. Many of them have really taken from their own funds to help kids who were not as fortunate as others to get the things that they needed.	43:06
Karen Ferguson	What kinds of things? What kinds of things would they do?	43:43
Anita Thornton	[indistinct 00:43:47]. Not for me, but for some others, I would see them getting their money together, like buying shoes, buying their clothes, seeing that they had food, and things like that.	43:47
Karen Ferguson	Do you think most of the people, young people your age went to high school when you were growing up?	43:59
Anita Thornton	Yes. Yes. Nothing like the dropout figure, now.	44:04
Karen Ferguson	Did people drop out before they finished?	44:11
Anita Thornton	Sometimes.	44:14
Karen Ferguson	Why did they usually do that?	44:16
Anita Thornton	Well, sometimes because of the finance. They would need to go to work at an earlier age if they didn't have the necessities. Of course, when the service came along, the war, that was not dropout because they went into the service, some of the guys that graduated from high school until they returned.	44:18
Karen Ferguson	Right. Did everybody— Was there any kind of technical or occupational training that went on in high school or was it all, was everything academic?	44:40
Anita Thornton	No. They had carpentry and brick laying. I think electronics too maybe.	44:56
Karen Ferguson	Did everybody take those classes?	45:07
Anita Thornton	No.	45:09
Karen Ferguson	Who did?	45:10
Anita Thornton	I think those who wanted it. The guys, really, would take carpentry, where now it's unisex. Back then, it was usually males.	45:11
Karen Ferguson	Do you think the people who took those, the manual training or that kind of thing, do you think that they could get jobs with that training after they finished school?	45:24
Anita Thornton	I think it perhaps helped them because they would had had some experience with the book learning and also with the actual hands-on.	45:33
Karen Ferguson	What do you think you would've been— What did people that you know who didn't go on to college, what kinds of jobs were they able to get after they—	45:47
Anita Thornton	Well, a lot of them were housekeeping. Menial jobs, but they made good livings. They were able to adjust to the salaries and do well with them. Then they didn't have to have a lot of material things like they have to have now.	45:56
Karen Ferguson	Right What percentage do you think of the people that you graduated high school with went to college or were able to go?	46:20
Anita Thornton	Maybe 20-, maybe about 30%, something like that.	46:30
Karen Ferguson	30%. Mm-hmm.	46:35
Anita Thornton	I don't think quite 50%.	46:39
Karen Ferguson	Right. Right. How about when you were going to high school? Did most of your class go on to college?	46:44
Irma Bland	Some of them. Some of them did. I think most of them did go. Some of them were able to go to Johnson C. Smith. Some of them did.	46:52
Anita Thornton	But you only have but so many.	47:01
Irma Bland	Yeah. We didn't have many.	47:07
Karen Ferguson	What do you think that the main difference, or you could—	47:17

Karen Ferguson	— your education and your daughter's.	0:01
Anita Thornton	Well, I think mine was a little bit more varied. I'd say a little bit more detailed probably than when my mother came along in '24 or something. I come along in the '40s. The curriculum had improved. It was more inclusive. I would think that.	0:08
Karen Ferguson	Do you have anything to add to that?	0:28
Irma Bland	No, that's about what she said.	0:28
Karen Ferguson	Were you allowed to go out with boys when you were in high school?	0:42
Anita Thornton	In high school, but not during early time. In late high school.	0:49
Karen Ferguson	What were the rules around courtship?	0:52
Anita Thornton	Be in by nine o'clock. That was late.	0:56
Karen Ferguson	Right.	0:58
Anita Thornton	That was late, and certainly no company during the week. That would be on the weekend.	0:58
Karen Ferguson	Right. What kinds of things did you do for fun when you were in high school?	1:08
Anita Thornton	Well, we'd go to the movies, go down to the recreations, playgrounds, things like that, little school parties and dances.	1:14
Karen Ferguson	Right, right. How about when you were growing up, what kinds of things did you do for fun in high school?	1:25
Irma Bland	Well, we didn't have too much because we didn't have the playgrounds. We visited each other's homes. Sometime we would come work there together, study together, but we didn't have too many recreation. Only visiting your friends after you studied your lessons.	1:32
Karen Ferguson	Right, right. Were you involved in any activities outside of your classes at school? Any organizations or clubs?	2:01
Anita Thornton	Yeah, student council. We did have a student council. President of the student council. I think maybe once I was in the chorus or something. I think that was about it. They had other things, but I did not participate in the student council.	2:15
Karen Ferguson	Any social clubs?	2:51
Anita Thornton	During high school?	2:55
Karen Ferguson	Mm-hmm.	2:57
Anita Thornton	No.	2:58
Karen Ferguson	But you did belong to some later on in your life?	3:00
Anita Thornton	Oh, yes. Yeah.	3:03
Karen Ferguson	Which ones? Which ones did you—	3:03
Anita Thornton	I'm a member now of two pinochle clubs.	3:03
Karen Ferguson	Oh, yeah? And when did you join them?	3:07
Anita Thornton	After college.	3:11
Karen Ferguson	After college?	3:11
Anita Thornton	One was organized when we got out of college, and the other one I went in, I would say, about 15 years ago.	3:12
Karen Ferguson	Right. The first one that you joined, what was it called?	3:23
Anita Thornton	It's Las Reinas, The Queens, they say.	3:26
Karen Ferguson	Right, right. It was just women only?	3:31
Anita Thornton	Yes. Now we have 13 members because we recently lost a member, so it's 13. The other one is Nimos, meaning spell no name backwards. We have the same amount of people, three tables of pinochle.	3:33
Karen Ferguson	Right, right. These social clubs, almost everyone I've spoken to belong to one. Why do you think they were so popular?	3:54
Anita Thornton	It gives you a chance to get with your friends and just sort of hang loose and relax. Both of my clubs, one meets once a month, and the other meets twice a month. We look forward to that. My mother's found one pinochle club. Now, before she got sick, she was a member of two, but she has cut it down to one pinochle club. Then she has her little Bible class that she goes to twice a month.	4:06
Karen Ferguson	When did you join your social club?	4:36
Irma Bland	Not until late.	4:40
Karen Ferguson	Oh, okay. Did you belong to any clubs after you finished college?	4:42
Irma Bland	No, not right then because we didn't—	4:49
Anita Thornton	Well, you had that little— What was that club called? Entrenue? Wasn't it something like that, Entrenue?	4:52
Irma Bland	Oh, yeah. Among us. Yeah, yeah. We had those back then here. That's right, yeah.	4:59
Karen Ferguson	What was that club? What did you do in that club?	5:08
Irma Bland	Well, we playing whist because I don't think we knew anything about— Might have started playing bridge, but it was back in there. We just get together. I think it's about eight of us or something like that.	5:14
Karen Ferguson	Now, you both went to college. Maybe I'll begin with you. You went to Bennett College on a scholarship?	5:33
Anita Thornton	Yeah. I was on a scholarship first year.	5:41
Karen Ferguson	Right. What was the curriculum like at Bennett?	5:45
Anita Thornton	At that time, one of the best.	5:49
Karen Ferguson	Why was that?	5:52
Anita Thornton	Bennett College was always considered one of the best Black colleges because we had a variety of activities, a variety of subjects, and we had a lot of things that we could do there on the campus. Everybody would tease us about being all girls school, but we always would say, "Well, the boys from A&T would leave A&T and come over across the tracks to Bennett." I stayed there. I graduated from Bennett. Instead of going into teaching, when I first came out, I wasn't able to get a job teaching, so I took a job as secretary at Old Good Samaritan Hospital. Then I moved from that to the Charlotte-Mecklenburg schools. I remained secretary of Lincoln High School for about 31 years, retiring just last year.	5:52
Karen Ferguson	Did you belong to a sorority when you were at—	6:45
Anita Thornton	We did not have the sorority at Bennett, and I never chose to join after I had been asked, but I never chose to get in it.	6:48
Karen Ferguson	Why was that?	6:53
Anita Thornton	I don't know why, but at Bennett during our time, the president was a man, President Jones, always said he didn't want them on his campus because it called for division. In some cases it does, but now they're doing that. They have sororities at Bennett now. They have sororities.	6:54
Karen Ferguson	What kind of division was created by sororities back then, do you think?	7:15
Anita Thornton	Well, he felt that if you were maybe a Delta you would stick closer to the Delta sisters than we would with the AKAs and those who were not connected. He just had that feeling that it called for division, so we didn't have them.	7:20
Karen Ferguson	Right. Were there any kind of divisions maybe on campus, social divisions or people—	7:35
Anita Thornton	No. Generally just because you always have your little clique. You always have your little groups, but nothing major.	7:43
Karen Ferguson	Was it strict? Were there strict rules in terms of—	7:54
Anita Thornton	Oh, yes. Many.	7:57
Karen Ferguson	What kinds of things were you—	7:58
Anita Thornton	Well, you had to be in, I think, about six o'clock. You had to be back on campus at six o'clock, and if you were late and got caught, then you would have to suffer the consequence. Of course, we were always known by, if we left the campus, we had to have on our hats off or [indistinct 00:08:27] or something. Of course, going in the chapel, you wore your gloves, and your head was always covered. But that, too, has gone, done away with. Those are some of the things that he just believed that Bennett girls, you should be able to spot this one and say, "You're a Bennett. You're a Bennett," distinctive.	8:00
Karen Ferguson	What was it like living in Greensboro?	8:54
Anita Thornton	I enjoyed it. I was always on campus, but I enjoyed Greensboro. Greensboro is really an educational city because there's quite a number of colleges there, if you know.	8:56
Karen Ferguson	Right. Do you ever remember any of your professors, or anybody else for that matter, before you went to college talking about the inequality faced by Blacks and that something should be done to change it?	9:02
Anita Thornton	I can't remember specifically, but that was general. We knew that we were separate but not equal because we did not have the facilities. We did not have the books. I think that was one of the things that desegregation did change because when all of the kids were placed in the same school, you had to have the same supplies and all, so that became equal.	9:20
Karen Ferguson	What kinds of times would you talk about the situation of Blacks in Charlotte or all over the South? Can you remember talking about that around people you knew?	9:59
Anita Thornton	Excuse me. Let me call you back in just a minute. I'll call you back in just a minute. Okay. Bye, bye. Now, your question was—	10:15
Karen Ferguson	When do you remember talking about the race question or whatever when you were growing up?	10:29
Anita Thornton	Well, it's maybe late high school because it was just something that was accepted, and it really wasn't discussed that much. You accepted it and went on, but you knew the differences were there, having no idea that one day it would be different. I think it was just something that was normally accepted.	10:37
Karen Ferguson	Right, right. Mrs. Bland, could I ask you a little bit about Atlanta University?	11:00
Irma Bland	Yeah.	11:08
Karen Ferguson	Why did you decide to go to Atlanta University?	11:08
Irma Bland	I really had no reason, but I did after getting the material. Oh, there weren't many who were going there at first, but this person that I knew was going. I decided to try out for it. It was very nice. You had to study to keep up with it. I was there about two years because Depression came along, but as a whole, I enjoyed it. Since about three years ago, they have combined, and it's called Clark Atlanta University now. Yes.	11:12
Karen Ferguson	Did you join a sorority when you were there?	12:06
Irma Bland	No, I did not.	12:08
Karen Ferguson	Did they have sororities?	12:08
Irma Bland	Yes, they had sorority.	12:10
Karen Ferguson	Why didn't you join?	12:13
Irma Bland	Because I did not want to. It takes money, and at that time, it was kind of scarce. I wasn't interested in joining right then.	12:14
Karen Ferguson	What were you planning on— What were you studying when you were at Atlanta University?	12:30
Irma Bland	Well, my major would've been English and Languages because I did love German and French.	12:37
Karen Ferguson	Right. When you had to leave, what did you do after that? Where did you go after you had to leave university?	12:54
Irma Bland	Well, I can't remember. I went to a little place called Laurinburg and clerked in a store there. It was a Black store for about a year, and it was very, very interesting then at that time.	13:03
Karen Ferguson	Why was that?	13:28
Irma Bland	Because at Laurinburg, and it was operated by a Black family. I stayed there.	13:29
Karen Ferguson	What kind of store was it?	13:38
Irma Bland	They had all kind of things in it. What would you call that, Nita?	13:42
Anita Thornton	Dry goods store.	13:45
Irma Bland	Yeah, dry goods. Then the kind of people that we dealt with was interesting. It was during the depression, and this person, he would let people have merchandise on credit. When probably the crops or something would come in, then they would come in and pay him, but it was interesting.	13:53
Karen Ferguson	Was it unusual for a Black person to own such a store?	14:21
Irma Bland	Yes, it was at that time.	14:25
Karen Ferguson	Now, where is Laurinburg?	14:30
Irma Bland	Laurinburg is down kind of the eastern part of, I don't know, about Maxton. But it's been years, and I know that store has closed since then.	14:33
Karen Ferguson	Right. So it's in the eastern part of North Carolina.	14:45
Irma Bland	Yes, ma'am.	14:46
Karen Ferguson	How did you get that job?	14:47
Irma Bland	One of my father's friend, Miss Amy Jane, because she recommended me to them.	14:49
Karen Ferguson	What did you do? What was your job?	15:01
Irma Bland	Clerk. It was nice, and a nice little town.	15:03
Karen Ferguson	How was that different than living in Charlotte or Atlanta?	15:12
Irma Bland	Oh, quite different. You didn't have anybody. There were several employees there, and it was nice. You were right with them. At that time, we weren't going out for a lot of social.	15:15
Karen Ferguson	Right, right. You mainly socialized with the people you were working with?	15:33
Irma Bland	Yeah, at work.	15:37
Karen Ferguson	Okay. How else was it different than Charlotte or Atlanta?	15:40
Irma Bland	Say how was it different?	15:47
Karen Ferguson	Mm-hmm.	15:48
Irma Bland	Oh, it was smaller, and like I said, you made your own social life right there.	15:49
Karen Ferguson	Were relations with White people the same as in—	15:59
Irma Bland	Oh, well, then, see, people were farm people and had this store. It was all sorts of people, and mostly kind of Indians-like. It was all sorts of people who came in.	16:02
Karen Ferguson	There were Indians and Whites coming into the store and buying things there?	16:27
Irma Bland	Yeah. I was thinking that we called them something else.	16:32
Karen Ferguson	The Lumbees?	16:37
Irma Bland	It wasn't Lumbees. I don't know whether it was Croatans or something like that. They were the type of people that would come in, and when their crops were up, then they'd paid you. They'd charge. The Whites, too.	16:40
Anita Thornton	Excuse me. I think we're going to have to—	16:56
Karen Ferguson	Okay, that's fine. That's fine.	16:58

Item Info

Title:

Anita Thornton (primary interviewee) and Irma Bland interview recording, 1993 June 16

Date:

June 16, 1993

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Contributor:

Ferguson, Karen

Description:

Name: Anita Thornton; Date of birth: 1926-04-23; Place of birth: Charlotte, NC; Occupation: clerical; Residence: Charlotte, NC. Name: Irma Bland; Date of birth: unknown; Place of birth: Charlotte, NC; Occupation: beautician; Residence: Charlotte, NC
Informant ID: 79; Informant ID: 10; Interviewed by: Karen Ferguson.

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English

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Behind the Veil

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Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-1999

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The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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Interview number: 288
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Anita Thornton (primary interviewee) and Irma Bland interview recording, 1993 June 16

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1. Anita Thornton and Irma Bland administrative file, 1993

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Anita Thornton (primary interviewee) and Irma Bland interview recording, 1993 June 16

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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