Margaret Fredlaw (primary interviewee) and Clarence Fredlaw interview recording, 1993 July 21
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Transcript
Transcripts may contain inaccuracies.
Chris Stewart | If I could ask the two of you to just state your name and— Well, you both live in the same place, so if you could just state your name so that I could get a voice level on the tape recorder. | 0:00 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | My name is Margaret Fredlow. | 0:14 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Clarence Fredlow. | 0:15 |
Chris Stewart | It's wonderful. Have the two of you always lived in Wilmington? | 0:20 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yes, I have. Both of us already lived in Wilmington. | 0:28 |
Chris Stewart | How about your parents? | 0:31 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | My parents too. They were originally Wilmingtonians. | 0:33 |
Clarence Fredlaw | My parents were originally from Augusta, Georgia, and they moved into Wilmington area in the mid to latter thirties. | 0:40 |
Chris Stewart | How come they moved? | 0:49 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I don't know. | 0:51 |
Chris Stewart | What did they do when they were in Georgia, in Augusta? | 0:53 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I don't have a whole lot of information about them living in Georgia. He was a carpenter by trade, and she was a domestic worker. I don't have a whole lot of background information. | 0:56 |
Chris Stewart | Mm-hmm. What kind of work did your parents do here in Wilmington? | 1:10 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Well, my mom didn't work. My dad was just a laborer. | 1:16 |
Chris Stewart | What kind? Who did he work for? | 1:20 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | He worked at the hospital. He also— He was a cook. He loved cooking and I don't remember the places that— He did do a restaurant. He did have a restaurant at one time and well that's just about all I can remember him doing then. | 1:23 |
Chris Stewart | And your mother stayed home and took care of children? | 1:45 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Mm-hmm. | 1:47 |
Chris Stewart | What about you, Sir? | 1:48 |
Clarence Fredlaw | My father, from what I can recall, he died when I was very young. I was about five when he died, so I really don't have a broad picture of him. But from what I can remember, he was a self-employed carpenter. | 1:50 |
Chris Stewart | I see. | 2:05 |
Clarence Fredlaw | That worked in Wilmington and my mother was a domestic worker. | 2:05 |
Chris Stewart | Mm-hmm. Did she work for families or did she work for the hospital or laundries? | 2:09 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Families. | 2:19 |
Chris Stewart | She worked for families. | 2:20 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Private. | 2:20 |
Chris Stewart | Was she live-in did she do day work? | 2:21 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Day work. | 2:24 |
Chris Stewart | Mm-hmm. Did either of you know your grandparents? | 2:24 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I did not. I didn't know my grandparents. | 2:31 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I knew my granddad, my mother's father. | 2:34 |
Chris Stewart | Did he live nearby? | 2:40 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yes, he lived right around the corner from where we lived. | 2:41 |
Chris Stewart | Was he retired when you knew him or was he— | 2:46 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yes, he was. He was retired when I knew him. | 2:48 |
Chris Stewart | What do you remember about him? What kind of man was he? | 2:52 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Very kind, gentle. We could always go and say, "Granddaddy, I want a dime," or he just always handing us money. I do remember, although he had retired, but he was— I do remember my mom saying that he was the only— He had a pressing club here. A pressing club, pressing clothes. Did I say pressing club? What is it? Pressing? That's what they called? | 2:55 |
Clarence Fredlaw | That's what they used to call them [indistinct 00:03:23]. | 3:20 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Pressing clothes. | 3:25 |
Chris Stewart | He owned his own business? Did your mother tell you the name? | 3:27 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | No. | 3:32 |
Chris Stewart | Could it have been named for him? | 3:34 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I really don't know. | 3:37 |
Chris Stewart | What was his name? | 3:39 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Thomas Robinson. | 3:40 |
Chris Stewart | Robinson. Okay. That'd be interesting to find out that. What neighborhood— Where's the childhood home that you remember? | 3:42 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | My childhood home? My childhood home is right on the north side of town. It's what they call Ugly Town now, on McRae Street. | 3:52 |
Chris Stewart | Ugly Town? | 4:02 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | That's right. Ugly Town. | 4:04 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, that's what they called it recently. Not at the time. | 4:06 |
Chris Stewart | What did they call it at the time? | 4:09 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Well, it was a very good neighborhood. All the persons that lived in that neighborhood were— They were persons who were— Well, it was a type of neighborhood I would say that you wouldn't mind living in. Everybody knew each other. It was like if one person said something to you, if an adult said something to some of the kids, then you knew that your mom or dad was going to find out something about it. So it was one of those kind, everybody cared for each other, you looked out for one another. So it was a neighborhood that I enjoyed growing up in. | 4:10 |
Chris Stewart | What was the address? Do you remember? | 4:56 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | 615 McRae Street. | 4:57 |
Chris Stewart | I interviewed Reverend Aaron McRae, whose father the street is named for, I believe. | 4:59 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | It might be. | 5:07 |
Chris Stewart | Is it like right off Mosley? | 5:07 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | No. | 5:10 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No, that's a different section. You out on Princes Place near [indistinct 00:05:17] school. That's where Reverend McRae lives now, and there is a McRae Street out there. And that's the East Wilmington section. | 5:11 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Right. | 5:22 |
Clarence Fredlaw | They call it. | 5:22 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. I'm lost now. | 5:24 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Okay. This one is right off of Red Cross. | 5:24 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. | 5:27 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | What is that new center that they have built over there? She might get it. You probably— You were in that area. You were not too far from that area when you visited our church. | 5:29 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. | 5:40 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | On Sunday. | 5:42 |
Chris Stewart | And that's what's called the north side of town? | 5:44 |
Clarence Fredlaw | The north side of town. Some refer to it the further north you go, they refer to it as Brooklyn, but around McRae Street, that would be between Brooklyn and Dry Pond, they used to call it. | 5:46 |
Chris Stewart | Yeah, I interviewed Edward Haynes who grew up in Dry Pond. | 5:59 |
Clarence Fredlaw | E.L. Haynes. Yeah. | 6:03 |
Chris Stewart | Yeah. I love hearing about the names of the neighborhoods. I just think it's really— To me it's really wonderful, because this is something that has come up over and over again, the names of the different neighborhoods. There's a Brooklyn in Charlotte as well, a neighborhood, a Brooklyn neighborhood in Charlotte as well. Yeah. Do you remember anything specifically about your neighbors? Did you have any favorites perhaps that spent a lot of time with you? | 6:05 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yes. Let me see. I remember if my mom had to go somewhere, she would leave us with Mrs. Rosa Goodson, who was like another another mom. There was also— One thing I remember about the neighbors, if they were cooking something good, you'd go in and you could pull up your chair and eat whatever that was being cooked. One thing I remembered that I didn't particularly like, whenever you do something that wasn't right, it always got back to your parents. So a lot of them had children our age and we were friends and some of us still remain friends. Some of those same children that grew up in that neighborhood. We are still friends today. | 6:33 |
Chris Stewart | Oh, that's wonderful, isn't it? What about you, sir? What neighborhood or where did you grow up? The place that you recall as your childhood home? | 7:43 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Well, originally it was at 416 North 13th Street, which was right near the intersection of 13th and Red Cross. Or Ranking and Red Cross is one of the same streets. And shortly after my father died in 1941, about the first of '42, we moved to the 100 block or South 13th Street where I grew up, went to school. We were in a heavily populated neighborhood. There were house after house. | 7:52 |
Clarence Fredlaw | There was plenty of children my age and we grew up in that neighborhood as friends and went to school together. And some of the closer ones, Delma and Marcia Car, both of them are dead now. The Vinnels who now operate Vinnel's Florist here in Wilmington, they stayed one door down from us and I became very friendly with them. There was one boy and three girls, I believe, and the oldest girl, Deloris, she has now passed. She would've been about my age. And there was a lady that stayed across the street, name is Mary Nixon, used to make some of the best rolls. We always look forward to getting a dozen rolls from Ms. Mary Nixon on the weekend. I stayed there and went to high school and after then I got along on my own. I left there. | 8:27 |
Chris Stewart | You were real close to the high school too, right? | 9:37 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Right. We were fortunate. We were only about four blocks from schools. | 9:40 |
Chris Stewart | After your father died, did your mother continue to work then? | 9:47 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yes, she continued to work. There was seven children left when he died. It was seven children together and she continued to work and raised us. And of course the older ones looked out for the younger ones. I was next to the youngest and my oldest sister, Janie, she still lives in the house at 110 South 13th where I grew up in. Well, it has been remodeled and everything but the same plot of land. | 9:51 |
Chris Stewart | What do you remember specifically about the houses that you grew up in? I mean, what did it look like? What did it feel like? What— | 10:23 |
Clarence Fredlaw | In comparison to houses now, of course you didn't have all the modern conveniences. You had your elected light, they hung from the ceiling and you didn't have base plugs. If you wanted to hook up a fan, you had to run an extension cord. And of course you didn't have air conditioning. You heated first by wood, and then to oil. But they were large rooms. The rooms and houses then, were generally all much larger than the rooms that they build in houses now. And the houses were closer together. Houses are maybe— In the neighborhood I grew up in, they were 15, no more than 20 feet apart, one right after another. Block after block. And people lived so closely that they— I guess it had a tendency to living like that you learned about each other and you knew each other and respected each other. And if someone said, "Don't sit on my fence" or "Don't throw your ball in my yard," then that's what you did. | 10:33 |
Chris Stewart | What about you? | 11:55 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I guess the houses as far as in relationship to each other, about the same as far as the distance. One thing I would like to say when you asked the question, did you remember our grandparents? And I said, I remember my granddad, but also I had a step grandmother who did curtains. She stretched curtains. | 12:00 |
Chris Stewart | Oh, okay. | 12:26 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | As far as the houses, the roads were about the same as Clarence described them being. But it was a place that we enjoyed being. We were always glad to get back home. Although I guess that's all we knew. And we loved it. We loved the atmosphere of our home. In our home we grew up with— I live in my brothers, my aunt also, we lived in the same same home. Same house. So her children, Mary Francis and Charles Henry, all of us grew up and people often thought we were brothers and sisters, but we were not. We were cousins, because it was my dad's sister. I remember on Sundays on, we loved Sundays, although we'd go to church, but my aunt loved to cook. I was named after my aunt Margaret. Margaret Bolia. | 12:31 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | She always had people in. That was Sunday. You expected a house full of people eating and cooking and because she enjoyed cooking. Another thing I remembered, and I have seen some of them now, the bathroom, the commode, it was the commode with the— You had to pull the chain. And I think I may have enjoyed just going in just to pull the chain. I don't know, it was something about that commode that was so fascinating to me. We didn't live too far from church. We walked to church. We also walked to school. Clarence was fortunate, he was closer, but we walked from one side of town to the other side to get to the high school and to get to one of our elementary schools when we were moved from one school to another. Remember going to Gregory, but it was not the Gregory that's there now. It's the Gregory that they tore down. | 13:35 |
Chris Stewart | Right. | 14:40 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | So we had to walk from the north side to the south side. | 14:41 |
Chris Stewart | And how far was it? | 14:45 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I would say that would be about— What miles would you say? | 14:47 |
Clarence Fredlaw | About a mile and a half. | 14:53 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | About a mile and a half. | 14:55 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Mile and a half, two and a half. | 14:56 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | And that didn't seem very long to us because we enjoyed it with our friends. That's the time we got to talking and well, I guess really got to socialize quite a bit on the way to school and on the way back. | 14:57 |
Chris Stewart | Your wife mentioned that she had relatives living with— Your aunt lived with you. Did you have any other relatives that lived with you in your house? | 15:16 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No, it was just the children and my mother. | 15:24 |
Chris Stewart | How would each of you define— | 15:29 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Let me say one thing about neighborhoods before we leave it. There's one distinct difference between neighborhoods now and neighborhoods then. At that time, I felt completely safe. I didn't have any fear of being assaulted or anything like that. You just felt completely safe in your neighborhood. Even though the houses were so close together and many people lived in one block, you had no fear that something bad was going to happen to you, like neighborhoods are nowadays. | 15:31 |
Clarence Fredlaw | This is one thing that stands out in my mind very clearly, because some of the neighborhood has changed so drastically. Some places in the area that I grew up in, I wouldn't even want to go in those neighborhoods now because of the safety factor. Not that I'm shaking in my boots or anything like that, but it's just so much different and people seemed so much different. Attitudes toward each other seemed so different. I just wanted to mention that. You really felt safe. You knew that if you got out of line, that someone in the next door or someone in the next block would get you back in line. That really stands out in my mind. | 16:16 |
Chris Stewart | How would each of you define, geographically, your own neighborhood, say by blocks or where you would play in or where you could hang out in your own neighborhood? | 17:04 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Well, I stayed near the high school and the grammar school. So there was a playground no more than three or four blocks from me at the time. There was another playground that was only a block, about a block and a half or less, but at that time it was more or less for Whites. And you had to go to where Williston was at that time, or still is. And that was for Blacks. But the playground area was fairly close to the highway. | 17:19 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | As far as hanging out. I don't know whether we did that. If you call hanging out playing in front of the door or— Because really there was nowhere to hang out. Although my brother sometime would slip to where there was water to try to get in. But we just didn't have a place to say hang out. We did most of our hanging out, I'd say at— I don't call it hanging out. Church and movies, the theaters the ones that we were allowed to attend. So that's about all of the hanging out. | 18:04 |
Clarence Fredlaw | The social structure was vastly different then. You were in the house during the week time. I couldn't remember coming up many a time in the summertime I was in the bed before the sun went down. This was real strict about being in the house, at least being in the yard. And as she said, there wasn't any hanging out, so to speak. You went to the movie, if you were lucky to get enough money. You went to church, you went maybe cut somebody's yard to make a little money. And that was about it. I remember the first time I think I saw television was in 1952. And of course we always had some type of radio. I used to listen to Joe Lewis fights on the radio and the ball games on the radio and the music on the radio. That was great entertainment. | 18:50 |
Chris Stewart | Were there areas that were forbidden? Places where you were forbidden to go to because they— | 19:58 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yes, it's hard— Well, it really not that hard to explain either. Nowadays, you find a lot of places that serve beer and things of that nature right in neighborhoods. Whereas then, the only thing you found in the neighborhood was a neighborhood store that sold grits and peas and that kind of stuff. So the forbidden places were places that I guess they considered for— Only adults should go, like where they serve beer. And at that time, Bootleg whiskey was a big thing. White lightning they called it. And naturally you forbidden to go to those places and in a few neighborhoods you would find those kind of places. But not anything like it is now where you find the sale of beer and alcohol is a legal thing, block after block after block. So we weren't plagued with being bothered with alcohol. And you had to slip to get your older brother or sister to try to get you a cigarette if you were brave enough to try one. | 20:08 |
Chris Stewart | Right. | 21:24 |
Clarence Fredlaw | It was a lot different from what it is now. | 21:26 |
Chris Stewart | Mm-hmm. | 21:31 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I can't think of any place that we were forbidden to go because of such things that Clarence mentioned. | 21:32 |
Clarence Fredlaw | They just didn't exist or you didn't know about them really on your level. If you 7, 8, 9 years old, you might hear if you got a older brother, older sister, say that's late teens or something, they might mention something like that. They wouldn't mention it to you. You might hear them talking to somebody else on their level about it, but you never went to those places. And it never occurred to you to really go to those type places. | 21:46 |
Chris Stewart | One woman, just when I asked her this question, she told me about an alley. Just an alley, and it was dark. | 22:17 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Oh, okay. | 22:23 |
Chris Stewart | And they weren't sure really who was going to be down that alley. And that her parents, this was a place when she was real young, they said no. And of course she had to check it out because they said no. And there was really nothing down there that day that she checked it out. So she was quite disappointed. But I mean, that's what one person told me about. Yeah. Yeah. Who made decisions in your— You were raised by your mother, so your mother, I assume, made all the decisions about the children? | 22:24 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Right. | 22:57 |
Chris Stewart | How about in your household, ma'am? Who made the decisions? | 22:58 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I think— When you say decisions, as far as— What kind of decisions? | 23:01 |
Chris Stewart | Well, decisions about discipline, decisions about financial matters, decisions about— | 23:08 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I think those decisions were decided together. I think both my mother and father shared in making decisions. | 23:14 |
Chris Stewart | Would you ever see them talking about it? | 23:36 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I would hear them talking about it. | 23:39 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. | 23:39 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | What would we do or what should we do? I would hear them talking about financial matters or decisions as far as— If one of us would do something that was out of line, what should be done. But I know my dad was the one that I could run to and really— He would keep me from really getting spankings a lot. Not that I was that bad or mischievous, but I guess he just believed everything Margaret would say. | 23:42 |
Chris Stewart | Now did your mother have anybody that she turned to to talk about— A friend or a relative if there was a relative anywhere in the general area to talk about the children or— | 24:24 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I don't recall any other relatives that we had. She and my oldest sister, Janie, who is still living. I guess if there's anybody to turn to it would've been my older sister and older brother. They were the ones. She would've turned to them, but she was a very strong person and she could handle just about any situation that came up, because if she said don't do something, you had a good sense you didn't do it. | 24:43 |
Chris Stewart | Did your older brothers and sisters work as well to help in the household? | 25:21 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yes. I can recall my brother, my older brother, who is dead now. There used to be a grocery store at 11th and Princess. There was two grocery stores, Brown's Grocery at 11th and Princess, and Smith's Grocery at 12th and Princess where she— | 25:27 |
Chris Stewart | Smith and Brown. | 25:48 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Where she did the shopping. And at that time you could take a Pepsi Cola crate and put a sled on the bottom of it and hook it onto the handle bars and deliver groceries, and he used to do that. My brother, James, used to shine shoes right there on the corner of 13th and Market and 16th and Market at that time. There was a lot of military personnel in town and they made money on Saturdays and Sundays shining shoes. | 25:50 |
Chris Stewart | What time period are we talking about? Are we talking about the war? | 26:27 |
Clarence Fredlaw | We're talking about the— Shortly after the war. I would say from the early '40s on through the '50s, right onto the time I finished school. I finished high school in 1953. So we're talking about the '40s and '50s. | 26:30 |
Chris Stewart | Do you recall, some people have told me about German POW camp here in town during the war? | 26:54 |
Clarence Fredlaw | It was located right across from Williston. I can recall that this is what some of the people in school said. You could see people out there. It was a fenced in area and you could see people out there. And this is what they told us. I had no firsthand knowledge, because at that time I would've been in my early teens. We're talking about 13, 14, 15, somewhere in that area. I never had a chance to talk to any of these people. I had no idea how many people were over in that area. | 27:03 |
Clarence Fredlaw | That area is now the Martin Luther King Center. At that time it was Robert Strange Park. But this is what I was told was those were German prisoners over there. I had no firsthand knowledge. I always wondered why they were there? Why would they bring prisoners all the way to Wilmington? Not that I had that much knowledge of geography as to how far they would've been away from home, but it would just always seemed strange to me that they were there. I really don't know why it seems strange to me, but it did. | 27:44 |
Chris Stewart | Well it seems strange even now, just bringing people all the way over here. | 28:20 |
Clarence Fredlaw | And I never looked it up or tried to find out why they bought them to this area. I have no idea why they're bringing prisoners, German prisoners to this area, except that in this area, southeastern North Carolina, you've got Camp Lejeune 50 miles away North. You've got Fort Bragg a hundred miles away. They had another military base, Camp Davis, which was between Wilmington and Jacksonville about 30 miles north on 17. So there was a lot of military activity in the area. Of course we were out on the coast, so I'm sure that probably played some part. | 28:27 |
Chris Stewart | What schools did you both start? You mentioned Gregory. | 29:11 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I started at Peabody. | 29:15 |
Chris Stewart | You did? | 29:15 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Peabody Elementary School. That was also in the north side town. | 29:18 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Right behind the church. | 29:23 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yeah, right behind the church. So I think I went to Peabody first grade through fifth. My sixth grade year I had to go to Gregory. Seventh— Was it Little Williston? Did they call it Little Williston? | 29:26 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Little Williston. | 29:51 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yeah, I thought they called it Little Williston. Seventh and eighth. And then— Was seventh, eighth and ninth. And then my 10th grade year I was at the new high school, The Williston. Now Williston Senior High School. | 29:51 |
Chris Stewart | How come you— Did Peabody only go through fifth grade? | 30:08 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I think at that time it must have. | 30:13 |
Clarence Fredlaw | It was an elementary school. | 30:16 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | And it changed and set the sixth graders to Gregory. So we were— | 30:17 |
Chris Stewart | And then the seventh graders to Little Williston. | 30:23 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yeah. And seventh grader had to go to Williston. | 30:25 |
Chris Stewart | You were moving around a lot. | 30:27 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yeah. | 30:28 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. I started off at Peabody, but I left there because we moved from 13th in Rankin to 13th and Orange. I went to the, I believe the first and second grade at Peabody. And then I started the third at Little Williston they call it. | 30:30 |
Chris Stewart | Do either of you recall any of your teachers from the school? | 30:52 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Ms. Randall. Oh boy. She was tough. You ever talk to anybody that went to school at Peabody, they'll tell you about Ms. Randall. | 30:56 |
Chris Stewart | What's Ms. Randall's first name? | 31:08 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I can't think of Ms. Randall's first name. I think Ms. Randall is still listening. | 31:08 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Ida? | 31:08 |
Chris Stewart | I have heard of Ms. Randall. I think she's 90 something. | 31:25 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, she's way up there. | 31:26 |
Chris Stewart | What do you remember about Ms. Randall? | 31:27 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Oh, Ms. Randall was tough. She would spank your fanny or whatever she had to do to try to get the message across. | 31:28 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | All Ms. Randall had to do was look at you and you knew. She was not one of my teachers, but being at Peabody, you knew all the teachers. And teachers just about knew all the kids by name. They can call them by name and so forth. Knew the families, and that is one thing I liked about, I'll say growing up at the time that I came through the schools, that the teachers got to know your parents and know you as an individual. I just think that meant a whole lot to the children. | 31:38 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | My first grade teacher's name was Mrs. Melette. I don't know whether you— For some reason I'm going to say she was at, no, I don't think so. But anyway, her name— I can just about name all of my teachers. First grade was Melette. Second grade was—. See I said I just [indistinct 00:32:40]. Mrs. Lane. Okay. And I think her name was Lane Solomon or Solomon Lane. Two last names, I can't think of the first name. Third grade. Mrs. Telfare. Fourth grade, Mrs. Rogers, whose husband was the principal at one time of Williston. Is that right, Clarence? | 32:14 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, he was [indistinct 00:33:04] to be principal. | 33:02 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yeah. And she was fourth grade teacher at Peabody. Fifth grade, Anna Gill. Sixth grade was McCoy. Seven— Oh gosh, I don't remember, because we were changing classes then. | 33:05 |
Chris Stewart | Oh, so once you got into seventh grade, you even at Little Williston you were changing classes. | 33:25 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | So therefore I'm kind of— But I think it was Highsmith. Eighth grade, Cotton. I don't know whether you heard about the McDonald's and because they were old, but he's not living now. But they were old Wilmingtonians. Can't think of Cotton's. First name. Ninth grade— | 33:30 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Nada. | 33:57 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Nada, that's right. Nada Cotton. And she had a brother who was principal at Gregory or Peabody one McDonald. In ninth grade— I don't really remember who the home teacher was far as— But I remember teachers that I had. A lot of teachers that I had Ms. Zodel, Constance Odell. I also had [indistinct 00:34:37] heard her name in high school. Oh gosh. Why don't you tell some of yours? Maybe I can think of them after a while. | 33:58 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Well, I probably would've would've passed by some of the same teachers. I can remember some of that names. I can remember Ms. Ramu, Ms. Perkins, Ms. Grady, and I might be confusing some of the ones with Little Williston with Peabody. It seemed like Ms. Grady was over at Little Williston. Miss Randall definitely was at Peabody. No doubt about that. | 34:53 |
Chris Stewart | You had Ms. Randall? Do you have any specific memories of Ms. Randall or any kind of— | 35:23 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I never had any bad experience with Ms. Randall myself. She just had that reputation. Now when you go in Ms. Randall's room, you do what you told and get out of there, because if you don't, you going get your hide toned up. She just had that reputation. | 35:34 |
Chris Stewart | I'm not sure if we're talking to her or not, but I've heard her name over and over again and I would love to talk to her. | 35:50 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I haven't seen Ms. Randall in a long time. I don't whether she— She was up and about and still sharp of mind until, I guess fairly recently. But I don't don't know where she might be now. | 35:59 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Have you heard Lucille Simon and Williams? | 36:09 |
Chris Stewart | Oh yes. In fact, we interviewed her. | 36:15 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Really? | 36:17 |
Clarence Fredlaw | [indistinct 00:36:20]. | 36:17 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I haven't seen her. Is her mind still sharp? | 36:20 |
Chris Stewart | Yeah. | 36:22 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Did she tell you that was her nickname? | 36:22 |
Chris Stewart | I didn't get to interview her. Another woman got to interview her, so I'm not sure. | 36:24 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Her nickname was the big wheel. | 36:30 |
Chris Stewart | Why is that? | 36:30 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I don't know. She was a large person and then she'd take that dance and she'd snatch it around and she was a Arts Dodger fan. She used to love Brooklyn Dodgers. Dodgers in Brooklyn that time. I don't how she got that name. I don't know. | 36:32 |
Chris Stewart | Was she a teacher at Williston? | 36:49 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. | 36:51 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | She was an English teacher, I think she was. | 36:53 |
Clarence Fredlaw | She's a member of St. Stephen. But she's been— I haven't seen her out in last year. | 36:56 |
Chris Stewart | I think she's bedridden now. I mean, I think that that's what the person who interviewed her told me. | 37:02 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Anna King, she's not living, but she was also one of the high school teachers taught me English and also Latin. I took Latin from her. These are the ones that stand out, I guess, because— | 37:08 |
Chris Stewart | What was so special about these teachers? | 37:24 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | One thing, they were caring persons. | 37:28 |
Clarence Fredlaw | They seemed to care. | 37:30 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yeah, they were caring persons. Even though you may have thought they were, I guess you were saying they were mean and they were hard. But all of that, I feel like there are a lot of persons who have made good, have come through. And I've often heard them speak of it had not been for these people, it may not have been what they are today. They may not have a— They were caring, they were concerned, they were determined to get the best out of the students. The word, I don't remember now, who always said C-A-N and apostrophe T, you could not use that word. I can't. Had to be one of those high school teachers. You could not use it. We were told to take that out on your vocabulary. C-A-N apostrophe T. There's no such word as can't. | 37:32 |
Clarence Fredlaw | That's some of the people that we were talking about. | 38:38 |
Chris Stewart | Is this your— | 38:41 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Class book of 1953? | 38:41 |
Chris Stewart | Oh my goodness. | 38:41 |
Clarence Fredlaw | So it is 40 years old. | 38:50 |
Chris Stewart | Oh my goodness. | 38:51 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | And most of the people we were talking about the teachers and what have you are in that. | 38:53 |
Chris Stewart | There's Mrs. King? | 38:59 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yeah. | 39:00 |
Chris Stewart | Well one of the things that I find just incredible is, first of all, so many of the people that we've talked to remember their teachers just like you. I mean from the first grade on, which is— I mean, that's a long time ago. No offense. I mean it's just amazing to me the impact that they have. | 39:05 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | It must had some impact for— | 39:34 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Because they had an impact on it. They really did. | 39:36 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Even now, students today, some of them I guess are in, I would say— If you would say, "Who was your first grade teacher? Who was your teacher two or three years ago?" They would say, "Well, I don't know." Another thing I remember about my elementary teachers that I liked, they visited your home. I think I say they got to know your parents. They knew your parents and they knew the children and they could tell you something about the children in their classes. I guess today, a lot of times you don't know— If you knew what these people knew about the students, you would understand your students better. You would know what caused them to— [indistinct 00:40:30], behave in the manner in which they do. If you knew some of the things that those teachers knew about their students, I think it would make a difference in the classroom today. | 39:40 |
Chris Stewart | It sounds like parents took a real active role in their kids' education as well. | 40:42 |
Clarence Fredlaw | They did. | 40:48 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Even though they didn't have as much education as most parents have today. I think they took more of an active role than most of us do today. | 40:50 |
Chris Stewart | What about extracurricular activities? What kinds of things did each of you participate in? | 41:04 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I wasn't much for sports or anything. I guess when I got up to any size, any spare time, I guess I spent working, trying to make some money. I guess I never got into sports, basketball— | 41:10 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Now do you mean in high school? In school. | 41:33 |
Chris Stewart | In school in general. | 41:33 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | In school, Clarence. | 41:33 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No, I never got into any sports and stuff. | 41:34 |
Chris Stewart | What kind of jobs did you get as a high schooler? | 41:37 |
Clarence Fredlaw | My first job was working in a wood yard. This is where in a wood yard, you know, heated by wood. At that time you had to cut the wood up long slabs and you had to cut the wood up and deliver it to people. And the next thing, I worked at the same store that my brother worked at Smith and Brown delivering grocery on a bicycle, cutting grass and worked in a cool haul tractor. | 41:41 |
Chris Stewart | What did you do in— Oh, racking. | 42:13 |
Clarence Fredlaw | [indistinct 00:42:17]. | 42:13 |
Chris Stewart | And that was okay. That was okay with your mother to work in a pool hall? | 42:17 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. Right, right. It was okay. Now, by the time I worked in a pool hall, I would've been about 17 when I worked in a pool hall. I was probably in my last year of school at that time. Now washing dishes during the summer at Wrightsville Beach, which is four or five blocks down, four or five miles down. 74, I would've been 14, 15. Of course she worked at the beach also, and that means she was right there to keep an eye on me. It was my brother and myself. He was about a year older than I was. So she cast down that beach each summer and we stayed down there. They had cottages, so we stayed overnight and we came up on Sundays and we went right back on Monday. That helped buy clothes for the upcoming school year. | 42:19 |
Chris Stewart | Would your sister then stay with the rest of the kids in town? | 43:19 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yes, Janie was— She was the mainstay you might say, whilst my mama was working, it was always Janie. She stayed home mostly. She didn't get— She got very little formal education because of that. She stayed home to look out for the rest of us. She sacrificed her education, know that was the way it was set up too. So it was always somebody there. You never went there and it wasn't somebody home. She was always with— | 43:24 |
Chris Stewart | Did she marry? | 43:55 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No, never. | 43:57 |
Chris Stewart | When your mother went to Wrightsville Beach to work, where would she work? Would she be going there with a family? | 43:57 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, at the hotel, she was cleaning up rooms, and worked as a maid at the hotel. | 44:06 |
Chris Stewart | Okay, so during the summers then she wouldn't be working for private family, she'd be working at the hotel? | 44:12 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Right, at the hotel. | 44:16 |
Chris Stewart | Did she work for any particular family for an extended period of time or would she work for different families during the day, during the week. | 44:19 |
Clarence Fredlaw | She worked for, I think— Seemed like it was two or three families. It was what they called a days worker. I guess she'd go here for a day or two days and they'd go to another for a day or two days. And it was more or less called days' work. I can't recall. Seemed like one of the families was the Holden the family, but I can't remember. | 44:32 |
Chris Stewart | Did she talk about her work at all? | 44:56 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Very seldom. | 44:59 |
Chris Stewart | What time would she leave in the morning? | 45:02 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Oh, seven o'clock and get back in the afternoon around 4:00. Between 4:00 and 5:00. | 45:07 |
Chris Stewart | So she'd be home in time for the evening meal? | 45:14 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Oh yeah. | 45:16 |
Chris Stewart | What kinds of things did you do for fun while you were in high school? | 45:19 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Well, being in the Glee Club was fun to me. I enjoyed singing. We had what you call— At one time we had a drama club. I took a part in that. Let's see. I think my biggest thing in high school was music. I mean as far as the Glee Club, and I think it had a dance club at one time, but it was during the— Seems like it was during a break or during lunchtime. I also tried to take part in that. Well, to be honest, school itself was fun. I thought it was fun. The entire thing was fun to me. I enjoyed going to school. I never liked staying home. If I had to stay home because of being sick or cold or something, I try— I'll never forget it. At night, I tried to cover on my mouth to keep from coughing so I wouldn't hear, "You need to stay home today," because I never liked to stay home. I enjoyed going to school. So I considered my whole school career as fun. It was fun, but yet it was a learning. | 45:27 |
Chris Stewart | —dances or the prom or any functions for students specifically, their after school or in the evening? | 0:03 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. And they had high school sports. Now if you like to go to the football games and the basketball games and things like that. Of course, I played sandlot ball. | 0:10 |
Chris Stewart | I heard about that. | 0:21 |
Clarence Fredlaw | We had a court down in Kendall. Called a Kendall lot at that time. It was Kendall lot there and somebody would always find a post or a tree to put a basketball go on. And we played a lot of what you call sandlot sports. Sandlot football, sandlot baseball, things of that nature. And the high school sporting events, all the time be on Friday nights. You didn't have that I can recall, unless it was some kind of tournament or something that they had sporting events at night, at school. I don't believe. Mostly were on Friday nights, when you went. | 0:25 |
Chris Stewart | Did the two of you meet in high school? | 1:19 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | We met in high school. At least my girlfriend said we met in high school, Clarence was attracted to me, but I didn't like him. But we really met when we really, I'll say, the extension of the marriage was after high school because she kept saying, "I'll never forget one night he was in the patrol car." And I said, "Well, who is that?" And she said, "That's Clarence." I said, "Clarence." And she said, "Well, you remember in high school he liked you and you couldn't stand him." But I don't really remember Clarence during the high school days. | 1:21 |
Chris Stewart | But you knew each other or of each other? | 2:09 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yeah, knew of each other. | 2:11 |
Chris Stewart | Did your family ever go to any of the beaches? | 2:14 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Not when we were growing up, no. Not growing up did we go to any of the beaches. | 2:20 |
Chris Stewart | How about your family, sir? Did you or any of your family members go to the beaches for recreation? | 2:30 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No, at that the beaches were staunchly segregated at that time. | 2:37 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Did you say Sea Breeze? | 2:41 |
Chris Stewart | Sea Breeze. | 2:42 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Oh, Sea Breeze. Okay. | 2:42 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Oh, Sea Breeze. Yeah. Yeah. That was a place we met. | 2:44 |
Chris Stewart | Sea Breeze was the— | 2:47 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | That's the place that we could go. | 2:48 |
Chris Stewart | Well now, am I misunderstanding that Sea Breeze did not have a beach? | 2:49 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Okay, let me see if I can describe it to you geographically. Sea Breeze is located on the intracoastal waterway, which is not right on the beach itself. It's more or less like a sound. Have you been to Sea Breeze? | 2:54 |
Chris Stewart | I haven't. I intend to go there before we—Yeah. | 3:15 |
Clarence Fredlaw | You need to so you can get a good clear picture of it in your mind. On the way to Carolina Beach, which is 15 miles from Wilmington, when you got to Sea Breeze, Sea Breeze is about a mile. This side of what they call Sea Breeze was a mile, this side of Carolina Beach. And the water that you were seeing was water from the sound, more or less of an inlet you might call it. It was not the ocean itself because Blacks were forbidden to go to Carolina Beach or Wrightville Beach to swim or what have you. Except that Blacks did own a portion of land on what they call the extreme north end of Carolina Beach. But you had to go through the main part to get to the place where Blacks went. | 3:17 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Is that called Topsail now? Is that the part you're talking about? | 4:14 |
Chris Stewart | The Ocean City? | 4:18 |
Clarence Fredlaw | They called it Bop City. | 4:22 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Oh, Bop City. | 4:25 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Bop City. | 4:25 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yes. They did call it Bop City. | 4:25 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. Yeah. That's what they called it. | 4:25 |
Chris Stewart | Never heard of it. | 4:25 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yeah. Bop City. | 4:25 |
Chris Stewart | Bop City. | 4:25 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Bop as in Bebop. | 4:31 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. Yeah. | 4:32 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | But that's not what they call Topsail now, is it? | 4:33 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No, no. Topsail is the one up above Bop City that you know. | 4:34 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Oh, they did call it Bop City. | 4:34 |
Clarence Fredlaw | It was called Bop City. And I think the ones that I can recall on and laying down there was were with the Hill's, the Hill family. And that one little area there where Blacks could go at that time. | 4:41 |
Chris Stewart | Now this was this then a beach that was actually on the coast then on the Ocean, Bob City or [indistinct 00:05:03]? | 4:58 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, geographically it was all a part of Carolina. It was all a part of Carolina Beach except that one area on the north end. Blacks had some land down there. On that end of the beach is one little— | 5:03 |
Chris Stewart | So the Hill family developed that area? | 5:21 |
Clarence Fredlaw | This is the family that I can recall. The Hill family developed that. | 5:29 |
Chris Stewart | You said that you had to go through the White part of Carolina Beach in order to get to Bob City. | 5:33 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. To get to— | 5:38 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | To get to Bop City. | 5:38 |
Chris Stewart | I'm trying to think of it. AAVE, I mean, was it difficult? Was it— | 5:42 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | To get to Bop City? | 5:49 |
Chris Stewart | Right. I mean to have to go through that section of— | 5:50 |
Clarence Fredlaw | It wasn't difficult land wise, but you had a high degree of fear. | 5:56 |
Chris Stewart | Right. That's what I'm trying to delicate. Right. | 6:02 |
Clarence Fredlaw | You didn't want to ask it, but that's what it is. Just ask it. You don't have to— | 6:06 |
Chris Stewart | Sorry. I wanted to try and [indistinct 00:06:11] as far as— | 6:10 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Just be real candid and ask. You do an interview, so you can't say anything that's improper. Just come right out of it. | 6:10 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. Okay. | 6:18 |
Clarence Fredlaw | You had a high degree of fear and you felt like—You know? | 6:21 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | And you're not to stop. | 6:26 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Right. | 6:27 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Is that right? | 6:27 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, that's exactly right. When you got out of—I spoke about you felt safe in your neighborhoods, but when you ventured out like that, you felt a high degree of not being safe. | 6:28 |
Chris Stewart | Did you ever hear of things happening to people who— | 6:44 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No. At that time, I guess maybe because of my nature, I just didn't pay a whole lot of attention. You might hear rumors of somebody threw a brick at them or made cat calls at them or call them names or something like that. But so far, I guess you're talking about people getting killed or— | 6:50 |
Chris Stewart | I mean, any of the things that you've been talking about. Yeah. | 7:20 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Bits and pieces. Nothing that I could really put together except that somewhere down the line I'd heard enough to that I didn't cherish wanting to go there. | 7:27 |
Chris Stewart | Right. | 7:40 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I don't know if that's giving you accurate description of the field. | 7:40 |
Chris Stewart | No, I mean it makes sense. | 7:44 |
Clarence Fredlaw | You just didn't cherish it. There was a place in South Carolina called Atlantic Beach that was running on exclusively by Blacks. And a lot of times the ones that were fortunate enough to have cars, we'd get in cars and sometimes they'd run what they call an excursion. They'd get a bus together and go to Atlantic Beach, which was 65 miles south down Highway 17. And of course, it was all Black. You didn't see anything ever with Black people. | 7:47 |
Chris Stewart | But it was really in order to feel safe of doing that— | 8:19 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Safe. Right. | 8:24 |
Chris Stewart | —you literally had to travel about 60 miles. | 8:25 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Exactly. | 8:27 |
Chris Stewart | Unless you wanted to risk going through which it doesn't sound like it was. Not many people would want to risk that. | 8:28 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Right. | 8:37 |
Chris Stewart | Yeah. We have heard something about Topsail, but that was also at one point, a beach that Black people went to. Now I talked to Karen Chestnut, her husband developed some of that area out there. Yeah. | 8:38 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | A lot of that area. Yeah, yeah. I believe. | 9:01 |
Chris Stewart | Was that a possibility? I mean it was also quite a ways, it's not the 60 miles, but— | 9:03 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, Topsail was in the opposite direction to go to Atlantic Beach, which was in South Carolina. You went 17 South and to get to Topsail, you went 17 North, which was about 30 miles. And Topsail as I can recall it, Topsail was mostly White and Blacks had some land on the north end of Topsail beach. And this is the part that was developed by the Chestnuts and some other families. | 9:08 |
Chris Stewart | Right. Yeah. | 9:42 |
Clarence Fredlaw | The most popular spot that I could recall at that time was the Atlantic Beach in South Carolina. That seemed to be the favorite place and I never really knew much about Topsail or really had any interest in going there very much. | 9:45 |
Chris Stewart | When did the beaches open up? | 10:06 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Oh, you might say, did they ever really.. | 10:10 |
Chris Stewart | Or should I say, "Did the beaches." Thumbs up. | 10:14 |
Clarence Fredlaw | A big mistakes if they ever really opened up. When the civil rights movements got to go in the '60s, you might say that's when you might felt like they were opened up during that period of time. To my knowledge, no Blacks owned any property at Wrightville Beach itself that I'm aware of. Even to this day, that I know of. Carolina Beach, I'm not sure about Carolina Beach 'cause it was so close to Sea Breeze that Black's own property, that bit of property on the north end of Carolina Beach and right on Carolina Beach property, you might say the main part of Carolina Beach. I don't know if any Blacks owned any property there. No. If they did, it would've been fairly recently. | 10:18 |
Chris Stewart | What were some of the other attractions at Sea Breeze besides the water and the sand? | 11:17 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Well you had, what do you call it? Arcades. And they had eating establishments where you could buy hamburgers and hot dogs. And what was the flavor favorite clam fritters. | 11:30 |
Chris Stewart | Fritters. | 11:40 |
Clarence Fredlaw | They made a fritter out of the clams. I don't know if you heard of that one. And they had dancing where you can play the jukebox, it cost you what? A nickel. I believe it was nickel and dime. | 11:42 |
Chris Stewart | [indistinct 00:11:50]. | 11:50 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Nickel and dimes played the jukebox and that was probably basically it. I imagine. Yeah. | 11:50 |
Chris Stewart | Was there a Boardwalk of some sort? | 11:51 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | A Boardwalk? Yes. I think that was one of the favorites, too. | 12:08 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. Bruce Freeman owned the Boardwalk. | 12:11 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Boardwalk. | 12:12 |
Clarence Fredlaw | The Freeman family owned and probably still do quite a bit of the property known as Sea Breeze. Bruce died about couple years ago. Bruce, he had a boardwalk where you could go out on the boardwalk and of course, he had a restaurant that way you could eat. And that was— | 12:13 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I think Mr. Newkirk, our neighbor when we were living on 15th Street, said at Sea Breeze—I think we lived next door to each other. I don't know. Many years before he realized that my dad, that he knew my dad and at one day he said, "Was your dad named Charles Bailey?" And I said, "Yes." He says, "Oh, I know him." He said, "We used to play." They had a group and they would go to Sea Breeze. My dad played piano and they would go and they play at Sea Breeze. And I don't remember now what he said the group was called, but not only did they play at Sea Breeze, but they played around other different places. | 12:42 |
Chris Stewart | Really? | 13:25 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Uh-huh. | 13:26 |
Chris Stewart | What kind of music did they play? | 13:26 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | It probably was oh, rock and—No. Rock and roll wasn't a— | 13:28 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Bebop. They call it. | 13:34 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Bebop. That's what they call it. | 13:34 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Bebop. | 13:34 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yeah. I guess that was what it was. So I guess Sea Breeze has been in existence for some time, is that right? | 13:36 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, I was here. About Sea Breeze when we lived at 13th in Rankin Street. | 13:48 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | That was one of the places I remember. Your parents did not want you to go when you got in there. [indistinct 00:14:04]. When we were in high school, you wouldn't go to sea—You weren't supposed to go to Sea Breeze. So that was one of the places that you weren't supposed to go. | 13:55 |
Chris Stewart | Why weren't you supposed to go to Sea Breeze? | 14:10 |
Clarence Fredlaw | That's the place for adults. That's all they would tell you. That's the place for adults. So you don't go to Sea Breeze. | 14:17 |
Chris Stewart | So did you go? | 14:19 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I sit there once or twice. | 14:19 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. I went to Sea Breeze once in a while and we could find somebody that had a car you know? | 14:26 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yeah. That wouldn't— | 14:30 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I would get in the car, go down to Sea Breeze. | 14:30 |
Chris Stewart | And try to get back without your parents? No. | 14:35 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yeah, without them knowing. And most times it would be, I guess on Sundays when we go to league and on Sunday evenings at church and then right after church, whoever had a car, let's go to Sea Breeze. And then we—Yeah, that was one of the places that—You know? | 14:37 |
Chris Stewart | Were there any special activities that occurred down at Sea Breeze? Any special dances or for picnics or anything that you remember? | 15:00 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No. The people that ran it were more or less in business to make money and they had a restaurant. They had quite a few restaurants there and places where you could go to dance. You got a jukebox and a big dance floor. That might be all you would find. Would be a jukebox and a humbling dance floor. Bands appearing down there. I don't recall bands appearing at Sea Breeze. At that time, they had a place called The Barn located on south. | 15:14 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Was that Dawson? | 15:50 |
Clarence Fredlaw | It was on the other side of Dawson, about 19 meters of Marcella, somewhere over there near high school. And that's where the big bands, your Black bands would come at that time and play at The Barn. | 15:52 |
Chris Stewart | I just talked to a woman who said she used the sing over there? | 16:09 |
Clarence Fredlaw | At the barn? | 16:13 |
Chris Stewart | Yeah. Her— | 16:13 |
Clarence Fredlaw | So you hearing some of the same thing. | 16:16 |
Chris Stewart | Darn right. We're asking this questions. But her name is Bishop. She actually goes to St. Stephens. What's her first name? Margaret Bishop. Yeah. With bands probably before your time. | 16:18 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. What's their address? Did you hear— | 16:42 |
Chris Stewart | This was on Patrick Street. | 16:45 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Patrick Avenue. That's right. | 16:49 |
Chris Stewart | Or Patrick Avenue. Right. | 16:49 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Patrick Avenue out there off of Kirk. | 16:50 |
Chris Stewart | Off of Kirk, right? | 16:52 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. There's some Bishops who live out there. Sherry? | 16:52 |
Chris Stewart | Oh, really? | 16:54 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. That's where Deputy Brown lived. | 16:56 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | But I can't place the Bishop. | 16:59 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I remember. Yeah, I remember the Bishop, I remember the names. I can't place her. | 17:04 |
Chris Stewart | They used to have all kinds of land where the university is now. | 17:10 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Right, right. They own lot. | 17:15 |
Chris Stewart | They had 60 acres land and had a milk dairy. She's telling me about her mother. | 17:17 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, I remember. | 17:22 |
Chris Stewart | Delivering milk? | 17:22 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I never did know them but I remember the name. | 17:25 |
Chris Stewart | Do you remember Jim Crow signs? | 17:31 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Oh yeah. Yeah. Black and White. | 17:35 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yeah. The water fountain. | 17:39 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Water fountains. | 17:39 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Bathrooms. | 17:39 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Bathrooms. | 17:39 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Eating places. | 17:39 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Eating places, yeah. | 17:43 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yeah. | 17:46 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Those are things you wouldn't ever forget. | 17:46 |
Chris Stewart | Do you remember knowing anybody or hearing about anybody breaking the rules of Jim Crow? | 17:49 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No, not really. 'Cause at that time I remember I was chauffeuring for a lady, McRae. This is a White family. McRae's, they into real estate now. But this was the mother of, one of them, and I was in high school and they sent me to Atlantic Coastline Railroad. She sent me down there to get two tickets. She called ahead and said I'm going to send him down there to get the tickets. And this is located right at front of Red Cross. | 18:00 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Where the police station is, is that right? | 18:44 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, the actual ticket office. Now, it's towing. Now, it's usually the parking lot for the police cars. I never could understand segregation then and I still don't understand it now. When I went down there, I didn't look for any sign as to which side I was supposed to go in. So when you went in the door, one door was for Blacks and one was for Whites. I just went in the first door I went into and when a man came up to the counter, he said, "You can't buy the ticket here. You've got to go back out and come in the other door." So I had to walk back out of that building and come back in another door and go right back to the same counter. So those kinds of things, you don't forget. I was a teenager. I was about 17, I guess. | 18:47 |
Chris Stewart | I had one gentleman tell me that when he was growing up, he grew up in a neighborhood where very close to his neighborhood with a park similar to what you—The White only park, but in their neighborhood— | 19:51 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Did he say Pembroke Jones? | 20:09 |
Chris Stewart | No, this is in a different, this is in Charlotte. He was telling me about this in Charlotte. In their neighborhood, there was a young girl who was very fair. She is a Black girl, but she was very fair. So all the kids in the neighborhood must be 10 or 15 kids used to climb up this hill because the park was down below. They used to climb up to the top of the hill and she used to go climb down in. And this was in the evening, not real late, wasn't dark yet. And they used to just sit and watch her play on all of the things in the park. And they used to see how many things she could play on. They were in the background cheering her on. | 20:09 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | So recall she was fair. | 20:54 |
Chris Stewart | She was fair. And then she'd come back up and they'd talk about it. She'd tell them all about it and the swing, and na-dah. And those are the kinds of things that I was thinking about when I was thinking about breaking the rules. And if you had ever heard or seen anybody breaking the rules. | 20:56 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I think I may have broken the rule at the water fountains. Because when I was growing up to see White and Black, I just wanted to know, I couldn't understand what was different about the water. And I think I may have gone when I thought no one was looking just to get water from that. I'll never forget. And the five and 10 stores, I mean five and dime stores. I think it was Kress'. | 21:17 |
Clarence Fredlaw | It's Kress'. | 21:42 |
Chris Stewart | It's Kress'. | 21:42 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yeah. | 21:42 |
Clarence Fredlaw | It was Kress' and two of them. | 21:47 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | McClellan. | 21:47 |
Clarence Fredlaw | McClellan and Kress. | 21:47 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I knew I did that quite often in those stores. 'Cause I couldn't understand why was the water, something about the water was different or what. But I don't know. | 21:49 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Well, like I was telling you about the park, there was a park located at 13th and Market and we were one block South 13th and dock in Orange. And we would go to Wilson Park, which was four blocks away rather than go to that park at 13th and Market, it was White. | 22:13 |
Chris Stewart | When you would walk to school or walk to the park, were there White children or White adults who would say things to you or would give you trouble or—? | 22:34 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | When I walked to school, I was really walking through the Black neighborhood. | 22:53 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Neighborhood. The same here. | 22:58 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. | 22:58 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Never came in contact with. | 23:02 |
Chris Stewart | So what was this park doing in the Black neighborhood? | 23:03 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Well, Market Street was the main street at that time. They separated north and south. And there was New Hanover High School at 13th and Market, which was all White. So it was right across from New Hanover High. | 23:07 |
Chris Stewart | So Market was the line between a White neighborhood and the Black? | 23:23 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No, no, no. No. Market Street was the divided line between the north part of the city and the south part of the city. If I can describe it in this manner, Wilmington sits right on the Cape Fear River. And if you started at Water Street front, second, third, right on out, when you got out to, say, 15th Street, maybe it wasn't that far. It might have been as far as it's 13th to 14th, you would find your Blacks living from 14th on back to the river. And your White's living from 14th Street on back this way or back east. | 23:26 |
Chris Stewart | From the river? | 24:11 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yes, from the river. So I guess that's why New Hanover was put right there at 13th and Market. 'Cause they served the Whites that were come in from the eastern part of the city, they go to New Hanover. | 24:11 |
Chris Stewart | Did the Cape Fear River ever flood? | 24:25 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Not that I can— | 24:29 |
Chris Stewart | Did you hear about any floods? | 24:30 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Not that I can recall. | 24:30 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I don't. | 24:30 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Not that I can recall. I can hear about a couple of times that it may have come up as high as Water Street, which is the street that runs right down south the river. But nothing of any major propulsions that I can recall. | 24:35 |
Chris Stewart | Did either of you, when you were growing up, ever think that you or know that you were being treated as a second class citizen? And if so, do you have any specific memories to relate? | 24:53 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I don't think I thought about being treated as a second class citizen until I got in probably high school. It's when, I guess, I began to really become aware of being treated as a second class citizen. And that's because of I began to notice our books, and began to notice our desk, began to notice our—Well, we just didn't have—I don't want to say because I'm trying to figure out how, but I've known what they had. I guess it's just through conversation about we didn't have what the other school had. I think that's when I really began to— | 25:12 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | It was more of an impact growing up. I don't think it really dawned on me that we were really being treated as a second class citizen. But I was aware of Black and White signs and stuff and I'm sure my parents probably knew, but they never to say sit around and to dwell and to talk about it with us. They didn't. But they probably talked about it among adults but not with the children. So I think it was about high school before I really began to really feel and really become aware that we were being mistreated. | 26:15 |
Chris Stewart | What about you sir? | 27:11 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I guess my teen years was when it really, I guess made it any—Had any really significance to me because of such incidents as I went to the train station to pick up the tickets and I had to go back out that door and come right back up to the same counter. 'Cause one door had Colored and one door had White on it. And go into McClellan's and Kress' to buy a hot dog if you're lucky enough to have enough money and you got to go back out on the sidewalk. And I guess my teen years was when I really felt the real impact you might say, I guess if you are looking for a timeframe. | 27:17 |
Chris Stewart | Are there any other specific instances besides the incident at the Atlantic Coast or there going to—? | 28:11 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, I was 25 years old when I was drafted thereon. And I was on my way back home from, I believe Fort Benning, Georgia coming back home for leave. And I stopped somehow we had a layover in Fayetteville, North Carolina where Fort Bragg is located out of Fayetteville. I went into a bar. I wasn't a big drinker. But I went into a bar to try to wait for the next train and they were serving beer. And I sat there about 15 minutes and the lady kept serving people. And when she passed me one time I said, "I'd like to have a beer." And she just looked at me and said, "You can't drink beer in here." I was in full uniform. And I guess that had more impact on me than any other single incident that I can recall. | 28:20 |
Chris Stewart | Can get drafted in the army, but you can't get a beer. | 29:34 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, that's the only thing she said. She just said, "You can't drink beer in here." And she walk quickly away and that was it. In other words, I just got up and left. | 29:35 |
Chris Stewart | Did your parents teach you certain ways to act around adults and was it different for White adults and for Black adults? | 29:49 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Well, in my family, we never were taught that there was any difference between White people and Black people. We were just taught to respect people. Period. | 30:00 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | [indistinct 00:30:16]. | 30:14 |
Clarence Fredlaw | That was it. There was no distinction at all. And I guess that, I know it kept—As I look back on it, it kept me from becoming bitter and I had no bitterness at all towards anybody. And I think because of those teachings that it kept you on the street, narrowing and kept you from wrong and bad opinions. 'Cause we never were taught anything like that. You respect people. If this is an adult, you respect them. Period. Not because they're White, not because they're Black, Blue or Green. You respect people 'cause it's an adult. That was it. | 30:15 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | The same here. And I guess that would be a reason we did not feel as if you were being treated as second class citizens growing up because it was never any. You respect the Blacks, the Whites because you just respect the people. If someone spoke to you, you obey, you do if they were an adult. And I never can't appreciate that having been taught. The only incidents I can think of probably would've been going in the stores and you may have been staying there and if the Whites come up, they were waited on. And even though you may have been there first, they were waited on and when you were gotten to whenever. | 31:02 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | So other than that, they're not experiencing it. And other than riding the bus, I believe. Oh yes, riding the city bus. If you got on them and if the back was crowded and you sat in the front, there were some incidents. If you sat in the front, the back, the bus was already full, somebody quite got on you had to get up and go to the back and stand up so they could have that seat. So there were some incidents that took place. But I guess, I just looked at them as it was something that you were supposed to do. | 31:58 |
Chris Stewart | What point in your life do you feel like people treated you as if you were an adult? | 32:42 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | As if you weren't? | 32:47 |
Chris Stewart | Were. | 32:48 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Were. Like you had reached adulthood, finally, you felt like you were an adult. Either one or both. | 32:49 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I guess it had nothing to do with race. It just had to do with my inner feelings, I guess. When I first decided to leave home and go out and stay in my own apartment, I guess that's when I felt that way. | 33:04 |
Chris Stewart | When was that? | 33:27 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Let's see, the mid to late '50s. I finished high school in '53. And I guess you might say when I first got my first solid job at St. James Episcopal Church at 3rd Market as a janitor making $25 a week. | 33:37 |
Chris Stewart | 25 a week. Wow. Wow. Was that the job that you got right after high school or was that during—? | 33:57 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. Well, during high school, that's when I started working in that poolroom. And from the poolroom I went to St. James. Yeah, right. Right along about that time. | 34:09 |
Chris Stewart | Did you work there until you got drafted? | 34:24 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No, when I worked at St. James for about a year and I asked the man for a raise and they said, "We can't give you a raise." And Mr. Homer Finnell, same family that operates the— | 34:27 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Flower shop. | 34:48 |
Clarence Fredlaw | —Flower shop. He was working at E.W. Godwin, the lumber company. Big lumber company in town. And he heard about a job at Carolina Millwork Company at 17th in Worcester. And he knew the man that was working in the warehouse because the man used to work at E.W. Godwin. So he said, "You go out there and see this man and they're going to pay you $45 a week." So I went out and saw him. And this was on Wednesday or Thursday, middle part of the week. And he said, "You come on in Monday." So I went back to St. James and I told him, I said, "I've got me another job." And they said, "No, we don't want you to leave." I said, "Well, I asked for a little more money and you said you didn't have it." He said, "Well, we already got the 35." I said, "Well, it's too late now. I'm gone." So I left there and went to John Millworks and I left there. They drafted me from Carolina Millworks. | 34:49 |
Clarence Fredlaw | And I came back after two years. Two years in the Army and I came back and worked. I came out the Army in September of '63 and I went on the police force in May of '64. | 35:46 |
Chris Stewart | And you retired from a police force then? | 36:08 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Right. | 36:08 |
Chris Stewart | How many years? | 36:08 |
Clarence Fredlaw | 28. | 36:12 |
Chris Stewart | Got some people who spent a lot of time in the police force. | 36:16 |
Clarence Fredlaw | El hays. | 36:16 |
Chris Stewart | Right. | 36:16 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Got 32 I believe it was. | 36:16 |
Chris Stewart | Oh, yeah. Yeah. | 36:16 |
Clarence Fredlaw | 32, 33. | 36:16 |
Chris Stewart | That was a wonderful interview. Yeah, that was really very wonderful. | 36:26 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, it's so. | 36:31 |
Chris Stewart | Yeah. What about you then? When do you feel? | 36:31 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I guess the same. When I first got my first job, solid job. And that was, I think, in 1958. Yeah, 1958. I probably began to feel as an adult, but I was around certain people and when I was around my parents, for some reason I was back to a child again. But I think that's when I first began to really feel as an adult, that first year working. | 36:33 |
Chris Stewart | What kind of work did you do? | 37:25 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I was teaching at the— | 37:27 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. So where did you get your—Did you went to college to get your teacher degree? | 37:32 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Mm-hmm. I went to college in Orangeburg, South Carolina. Claflin University. | 37:36 |
Chris Stewart | Sure. I know this book or this school only from a book called Lemon Swamp and Other Places. | 37:42 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | It's called Lemon Swamp. | 37:51 |
Chris Stewart | That's the name of the book. The woman who wrote it, she wrote it with her granddaughter. She went to Claflin when she was buried. | 37:53 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Oh. | 38:02 |
Chris Stewart | I mean it's like, I don't know. She probably went in the '20s. | 38:02 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | In the '20s. I'll try to find that. | 38:07 |
Chris Stewart | It's a wonderful book. | 38:08 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Lemon Swamp. | 38:09 |
Chris Stewart | It's a strange. By Mamie Garvin Fields. It's the woman's name. So you went away to school? | 38:11 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I went away to school and was calling home every—I guess just when I first left I was calling them just about every day, crying, wanting to come by. But I think I soon became adjusted. I had some good days at and I enjoyed my college days. | 38:20 |
Chris Stewart | What did you enjoy about Claflin? About you. | 38:44 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I really enjoyed the—It was a small school. It was I think a Methodist church school. Same thing, but small. And the instructors got to know you so well until when I first went there, I was going to major in elementary education. And I'll never forget, one day I was on the campus and President Seabrook's wife, Mrs. Seabrook, she saw me, I didn't even realize she knew me. So she called me and she says, "I understand you're going to major in elementary education." She asked why was I doing that. She said, "As much as musical as you are, and you're going to major in elementary education." And that started me thinking, and I guess I changed my major. | 38:49 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | So I guess, still, that was a carry all from high school. The instructors got to know you and seem to have a—It was a caring thing there. They tried to guide and direct you in the right way. And I had one music teacher who lived, there was some, I guess these houses were for the instructors. Mrs. Williams. She was one of my music teachers. And I never get, in the afternoons, I'd go to her house and go in her refrigerator and eat what I wanted to eat. And only thing she said, "Remind y'all going to have a cake to eat." So I enjoyed the atmosphere, the relationship with the instructors. | 39:31 |
Chris Stewart | Was this a women's college? | 40:18 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | It was co-ed. | 40:22 |
Chris Stewart | Oh, it was co-ed. Okay. I remembered it. Were you involved in any organizations? | 40:28 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Mm-hmm. I was also a member of the choir. I guess that was just about the biggest thing. Choir and the— | 40:30 |
Chris Stewart | Were there any social clubs or sorority? | 40:44 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Sororities, yes, I pledged, but I didn't go over because of the financial aspect of it. I went into the sorority after coming out of college. | 40:49 |
Chris Stewart | What did you pledge? | 41:00 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Alpha Kappa Alpha, AKA. | 41:02 |
Chris Stewart | One of my friends, Sonya, interviewed Mrs. Johnson. Sonya's a Delta. She was little—All of her family belonged to AKAs, but Sonya's a Delta. I'm little nervous. | 41:06 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | It is. One of my best friends at school was a Delta. | 41:20 |
Chris Stewart | Really? | 41:22 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Uh-huh. And in fact, I had a lot of Delta friends and I guess the Deltas, a lot of them thought I was going Delta because had a lot of Delta friends. But I think because of the impact that the AKAs had on me during my high school days, is what really, I think I had already made up my mind. I don't know. Something about those people, ladies or those women, AKA women's that just in my high school, that there was just something about them. I wanted to be like them. | 41:23 |
Chris Stewart | So the AKAs were active in your high school? | 41:58 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Mm-hmm. I was a debutant one. I didn't mention that during my high school days. And that sponsored by Alpha Kappa Alpha. So I had already made up my mind. I'll never forget in the classroom, there's something out there. Their movement, the way they moved around, the way they—It was just something that was very impressive and I always wanted to be like them. So I think that had a great impact on me choosing to go AKA. | 42:10 |
Chris Stewart | What kind of qualities did the organization look for in a young woman? | 42:36 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | The organization on women becoming adult, I mean coming an adult, coming an AKA, I mean a debutant. | 42:45 |
Chris Stewart | To become an AKA. | 42:51 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Okay. The leadership, grades, character. I guess that's about the ones that kind of stand out. | 42:53 |
Chris Stewart | What other activities besides sponsoring did the AKAs practicing? | 43:17 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | We had what you call Friends. Friends of AKA. Those were children, ages of—I don't remember the ages, but they were elementary age, I would say. We worked with those kids hoping that the girls would want to—This would be a way of getting them to want to become or grooming them for AKAs. They give scholarships. Let's see what else? I think scholarships. We have a program called Brainstorming and they work with kids that were, I guess under, I'm saying underachievers. Brainstorming, I think it's about the biggest thing that the AKAs, the other, that debutant program. | 43:25 |
Chris Stewart | So you said earlier, well you were up answering the telephone, you didn't really noticed your husband in high school? | 44:41 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Well, I did. | 44:55 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I was sort on the quiet side, so I didn't see. | 44:55 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I was on the quiet side. So we were two. | 44:55 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I wasn't into sports and that kind of thing. And more than likely, as soon as school was over, I headed home to do a chore, do some type of work or what have you. So I guess I just didn't stand out. | 45:04 |
Chris Stewart | So it was quite a ways after high school when you— | 45:20 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | And when I began to notice Clarence. Yeah. I think when I really, really began to know Clarence was, I guess, seeing him ride around in the police car. | 45:25 |
Chris Stewart | In that uniform. | 45:49 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yeah. | 45:50 |
Chris Stewart | So this was in the early '60s? | 45:54 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Probably late. We were married in 1970. | 45:58 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. So it probably was— | 46:01 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | It was in the late '60s that I'm into it. | 46:01 |
Chris Stewart | So how did you meet? How did you, finally? | 46:12 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Oh, man. | 46:26 |
Chris Stewart | It wasn't too long ago, you know? | 46:27 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No, I guess it just seemed like we just came together. I don't know why. | 46:27 |
Chris Stewart | You didn't just stop your car one time, your patrol car one time? | 46:28 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No, no, no, no. Nothing like that. I guess it's hard to describe. I guess. | 46:31 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I really don't— | 46:37 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I could take the easy way out and say it must have been destiny. You know? | 46:43 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | See, but I won't let you take the easy way out. See? | 46:49 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Fair enough. | 46:49 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I guess demeanor, if that's the right word, had a lot to do with it. I wasn't a wild and outgoing person who liked to go to wild parties and that kind of stuff. She was the same way, so I think these kind of things had a lot to do with the attraction. | 0:05 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I think how we first really got—I think I had to make the first move. Clarence's mom was in the choir and I was always saying something to her about Clarence. I can remember asking something about what shift he was on. I guess I don't know what you call it, invited—His sister was here one time. I invited her to I don't know whether it was a dinner or what at my house. I think I went about it by getting to his family first before. I guess that's how we started. | 0:29 |
Chris Stewart | You waited a long time after high school to marry. Both of you because when did you graduate? | 1:18 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | High school, in '54. He came out in '53. | 1:24 |
Chris Stewart | '53. | 1:25 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | And I came out in '54. | 1:25 |
Chris Stewart | Why? | 1:29 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Well, Clarence had married. Clarence was married. | 1:31 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I married too young. I guess my first marriage was when I was 20, I believe. It lasted about that long. From that time on, I never remarried again till we met and married. We've been together since then. That first one, I guess it was—Anyway, it didn't last that long. | 1:32 |
Chris Stewart | Was this a woman from school as well? | 2:07 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Maybe, went too. Yes, went to Williston. | 2:12 |
Chris Stewart | What about you? Why did you? | 2:16 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I don't know. I dated, but the fellows just didn't seem to—I don't know. There was something about them I just didn't like. | 2:19 |
Chris Stewart | Until Mr. Uniform came along. | 2:32 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yeah. Oh, I guess Clarence was on the quiet side. He was a good listener. He was a kind person. Then he was, I don't know, say a mysterious person. I don't know. It was something that was different from the other fellows. | 2:34 |
Chris Stewart | Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You mentioned that you were in a choir. We didn't talk at all about church activities and I'd actually like to go back and talk about church a little bit, both from when you were children where, what churches you belonged to, and what kinds of activities the church offered, and what you remember about church and pastors? | 3:07 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Well, the church that I attended is the same church that I'm attending now. My parents attended St. Stephen's, so I kind of grew up in that church. Activities, well, we had an organization called Allen Christian, I think it was Christian League that was on Sunday afternoons. We had Bible school. I remember really enjoying Bible school. On the third floor that we don't use now, we could play up there. I mean, you did some of everything, jump rope, jack rocks, some of everything up on that third floor. | 3:30 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | There is a swimming pool, but it was not in existence when I was coming along. I don't know. It wasn't. I took a part in the Sunday school choir and I began to play for the Sunday school. Then ended up playing for the church and well, anything that was there, as far as activities, I was a part of it. Uh-huh. Easter programs. I had a relative who began playing. | 4:13 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | She was playing for the church and this is how I would follow her and sit on the organ bench. Then other than taking music as a major, I think I learned a lot just from being with her. Not only did she play for St. Stephen, but she would also play for other churches and I'd go around with her on Sunday afternoons when she had to play. So any activity that was there at St. Stephen, I was a part of it. As far as ministers, I think I can go back as far as— | 4:49 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Reverend Glover? | 5:25 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | No. I can't go back that far. He may have been when I was very young, but I don't remember him. I would say Reverend Walker. In fact, Reverend Walker had a daughter and we became friends. My brother who lives in what part of Georgia? Waycross. | 5:35 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Waycross. | 5:57 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | He called me one day and he said he was at the barbershop. He was talking to I guess I think it was the person that was cutting the hair and he was saying that he was from Wilmington. He said, "Oh, I'm married to a girl that's from Wilmington. Her dad was a minister." Then he began to ask where? And he told him the daughter's name Elsie Ann. Then my brother said, "What was her daddy's name?" Then he called to tell me. He said, "I met Elsie Ann's husband at the barbershop." | 6:03 |
Chris Stewart | Wow. It's a small world. | 6:40 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | It is. It's a very small world. I remember going on Sunday schools and I guess when we were growing up, I thought my parents were overprotective. We weren't allowed to spend the nights out with other children. We could go play, but my mother would call my friend's mom to say, "Well, Margaret is coming. What time are you going to be there? What time I was supposed to be back?" But I would go to Sunday school conventions and I enjoyed the Sunday school conventions that we attended. But during that time, church was just about the biggest thing going and if the activities were not there, you just didn't have them. So I found that we had quite a number of activities going on. I would say more so then, than we have now. | 6:40 |
Chris Stewart | Really? | 7:39 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I would think it's not because sometimes the activities were not planned, but the young people seem to have more things to do and I guess more places that they can go to that we didn't have to go. So therefore, we were there at the church and now, they are exposed to more places that they're able to attend. I sang in the junior choir. Played for Sunday school, junior choir, senior choir. We had a K-teen rolling choir. So I played for just about every which one of the choirs that we've had at the church. | 7:40 |
Chris Stewart | Did you also belong to St. Stephen? | 8:27 |
Clarence Fredlaw | St. Stephen. | 8:38 |
Chris Stewart | All your life. | 8:38 |
Clarence Fredlaw | All my life. | 8:38 |
Chris Stewart | Wow. | 8:38 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I was baptized there I think in 1942 or '41, I believe. | 8:38 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I don't know if you talked with anyone that told you about some of the history of the church? I had, let' see, now, this was really my daddy's aunt, Mary Beasley, so it was my grand aunt? | 8:41 |
Chris Stewart | Grand aunt. | 8:52 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Uh-huh. She was one of the ladies that helped to carry breads out. I don't remember what they called them. What did Reverend Calhoun call them, aprons? They were called aprons. | 8:53 |
Chris Stewart | Oh. | 9:07 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Apron Society? | 9:08 |
Chris Stewart | We have it on tape. | 9:09 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yeah. Something about aprons. | 9:10 |
Chris Stewart | Mrs. Johnson gave us a tour of them. | 9:11 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | They were called apron something and she was one of those ladies. So I have a lot of family that my dad, my mom, my aunt, I mean, his sister, my granddaddy, so it was just like— | 9:16 |
Chris Stewart | What role did St. Stephen's play, both the pastor and the church itself during the civil rights movement here in Wilmington? | 9:38 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Clarence might be able to speak to that, address that. | 9:48 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I guess getting the message across about the civil rights being passed and keeping you up to date as to what the laws are. I think that's probably the biggest part that it played in that. | 9:54 |
Chris Stewart | Did the church open its doors for any meetings of any sort, that you know of? | 10:18 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Knowing St. Stephen, I can't pinpoint any meetings, but I would think that they would have. | 10:25 |
Chris Stewart | Yeah. | 10:31 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. You would have to talk to someone that maybe can remember some specifics, but St. Stephen would have opened their doors, yeah. | 10:31 |
Chris Stewart | What about ministers? Were there any ministers that you know of that were— | 10:40 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Very active in the? | 10:50 |
Chris Stewart | Yeah. In the struggle. | 10:50 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Are you speaking of getting out marching with the sit-ins, or? To try to answer your question, they would be outspoken. | 10:59 |
Chris Stewart | That's what I mean. | 11:14 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. All of them that I could recall were outspoken about segregation, and the evils of segregation, and things of that nature. It would come out in their sermons and any church functions we would have. They were all very much outspoken about that. They weren't the type that would get out and I guess march or get out on the corner and preach hatred or anything like that. | 11:14 |
Chris Stewart | Right. | 11:48 |
Clarence Fredlaw | But they would certainly keep you abreast of what's going on. That was their role in it. | 11:49 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I was trying to think of a minister that probably was there during that. That was during 19 what? | 11:56 |
Clarence Fredlaw | That would be the early '60s, right on through the '60s. | 12:02 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I don't remember. | 12:14 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Let's see. | 12:14 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | It could have been— | 12:14 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Reverend Williams and Reverend Isaac J. Miller. | 12:15 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | May have been. | 12:19 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I think there was Reverend Isaac Miller and seemed like Reverend Williams followed him. I don't remember who followed him, but from what I can recall, all of them would forcefully try to get the message across to you, to the congregation, and talk on the evils of segregation and discrimination. They would do that. | 12:20 |
Chris Stewart | I'd like to ask you a little bit about being on the police force. You said you started in '63? | 12:50 |
Clarence Fredlaw | '64. | 12:57 |
Chris Stewart | '64. | 12:57 |
Clarence Fredlaw | May of '64. | 12:57 |
Chris Stewart | First question is, how many Black police officers were there when you started? | 13:03 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Three. | 13:06 |
Chris Stewart | You were the fourth? | 13:08 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Mm-hmm. | 13:10 |
Chris Stewart | There were three hired in '54 as well. I mean, I know that, so by '64, there was? | 13:10 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Well, what happened is there were three hired in '53, George Davis, E.L. Haynes— | 13:13 |
Chris Stewart | Haynes. | 13:27 |
Clarence Fredlaw | —one of the ones you talked to, and William Hill. Hill is dead now and from that period of time until '61, they never hired another Black. Just had those three. | 13:28 |
Chris Stewart | Those three. | 13:45 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Those three. | 13:45 |
Chris Stewart | So why did they start hiring? | 13:48 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Because of the pressure brought on by the civil rights movement and the local newspaper, the Wilmington Journal. | 13:51 |
Chris Stewart | Journal. | 13:59 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Jervay, Tom Jervay. | 13:59 |
Chris Stewart | Jervays were still putting pressure? | 14:01 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. | 14:02 |
Chris Stewart | So how was it working in—I'm not going to try and be delicate. How was it being three of, I don't know, how many? You have three Black officers of however many White officers there were with the police force. Was there any trouble? Were there any difficulties? | 14:05 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No. There wasn't any difficulties, outward difficulties between the Black and White officers. But you had a feeling that some of the White officers probably didn't like you or didn't want to be around you. | 14:32 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | A feeling that you shouldn't be there, is that right? | 15:03 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. You could see their treatment between if they arrest a White person and if they arrest a Black person. Sometimes the way they treated them, but so far as getting along, I never had any problems with anybody down there at all. One thing I guess is because of my makeup. I just always felt that I would treat people like I want somebody to treat me. I wouldn't run over anybody, but I wouldn't let anybody to run over me. I guess that went back to my early teachings at home, not to hate, or not to mistreat anybody. | 15:05 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I think that really helped me out. In fact, I know it helped me out in my police career, but during my 28 years down there, I can safely say that I never arrested somebody because they were White, or because they were Black, or whatever. I just went by what the law said. You could hear things said that weren't supposed to be said, and I'm talking about my early years down there now. On the radio, you might hear a supervisor come on the air and his subconscious surface on him unknowingly. | 16:01 |
Clarence Fredlaw | He'd come on the air and he'd call to car so-and-so, say, "There's a nigger on a bicycle in the 1800 block over there in the drive. Check him out." Things like that you'd hear that. I mean, this was on the police band when I first went down there. Of course, none of that exists nowadays. But so far, I never had any personal problems myself because if I had a feeling that an officer didn't, for whatever reason, he didn't want to be bothered with me, or he didn't want to speak, or whatever, I didn't speak to him and that was it. | 16:48 |
Chris Stewart | You got hired on in a very volatile, at a very volatile time. | 17:30 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. | 17:35 |
Chris Stewart | I mean, I don't know really quite what I want to ask you about that, but I mean, how was it being hired in at such, and it didn't let up for a long time? Probably could— | 17:39 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Were there problems being hired or did you encounter any— | 17:52 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Let me make sure I— | 18:02 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | —problems as far as getting onto the— | 18:02 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Let her ask the questions— | 18:02 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Oh. | 18:02 |
Clarence Fredlaw | —because I want to make sure I understand. | 18:03 |
Chris Stewart | Well, I mean, I'm interested in hearing—I mean, a civil rights struggle was happening during the entire '60s and got real violent— | 18:06 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Right. | 18:20 |
Chris Stewart | —hear towards the beginning of the '70s then. I wanted to ask you about what it was like to walk into that kind of situation as a new Black police officer, walking into that kind of struggle knowing that there is also a tension between a Black community and the police force? | 18:20 |
Clarence Fredlaw | You're not going to believe this, but— | 18:43 |
Chris Stewart | I'll believe whatever you tell me, frankly. | 18:50 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I didn't feel any pressure. | 18:54 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. | 18:55 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I didn't feel any pressure because I guess, I knew me. I was surprised at what was going on to some extent, but I didn't feel any pressure because I knew that I was going to go strictly by what the law said. If somebody needed to be arrested, I was going to arrest them. If they didn't, then that was it, so I really didn't feel any pressure on myself, so to speak. I don't know if I'm answering your question or not? | 18:56 |
Clarence Fredlaw | But I didn't have any trouble stepping into that situation. My biggest concern I guess was if I saw a White officer mistreat whoever they might be arresting and use unnecessary force or whatever. That bothered me, but I never did these things myself. But in the same sense, I hated to see another officer mistreat somebody simply because they had the authority to do it. | 19:34 |
Chris Stewart | And you did see it? | 20:07 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sure. Some of the things, you could be blind and you'd see them. | 20:08 |
Chris Stewart | Right, right. Before I ask the next question, I—You married your husband in 1970 and you knew he was already on the police force. How did you feel about watching your husband and the man that you love going into this kind of situation? | 20:15 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I guess there was a little fear, especially during the time that the riots were going on, but I knew that I could not, I would not be able to exist and dwell on thinking about what might happen. I really just don't know. I just took it one day at a time and not really dwell on what could have happened or what may have happened during those times. I'll never forget during the riots, my supervisor, who was Lisa Banner and that was during the time they were throwing bricks at the cars. | 20:40 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I think they were even burning establishments and she said, "If you want to come—" She lives out in Forest, I mean, Long Leaf. The Long Leaf development. She said, "If you want to come live with me now, please do so." She says, "Now, don't feel—" But I didn't. I felt like me going out there would have been better for her to come live with me because I felt like that. | 21:31 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I really felt like I would have been safer in my own little territory than being in—But as I said, there was fear, but I did not really just because I was asked a lot, "Aren't you afraid?" And I'd say, "No." Which I wasn't. I don't know. I guess I just felt I was either crazy or I just felt like with him being the kind of person that he is, that nothing would happen to him. He could take care of himself. | 22:03 |
Chris Stewart | Where did you live during this time? | 22:38 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I lived on 15th Street, between Church and 9th. | 22:40 |
Chris Stewart | How long did you live there? | 22:48 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Let's see. Clarence and I moved there in '71. So we stayed. Yeah. I think it was '71 and we stayed there until about what? I think we moved down here in '87. | 22:51 |
Chris Stewart | So where were you teaching when you were? | 23:10 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | When I first finished I taught in Onslow County called Maysville. The school was Silverdale. I worked there about six years. Then I left there. I went to Beaufort. So on one side of the bridge is Beaufort and what is the other side called? They're very historic. | 23:11 |
Chris Stewart | Mm-hmm. | 23:39 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Well, anyway, I worked in Beaufort for a year. | 23:41 |
Chris Stewart | Were you teaching music? | 23:43 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | When I first started, I taught sixth grade for six years, but I had music on the side like the little chorus, eighth grade chorus. I didn't teach sixth grade. Eighth grade. But I had the eighth grade chorus and the next year when I went to Beaufort, it was high school. I had taught 10th grade English and had high school chorus. Then I left there and went—I was trying to get close to home. Went to Burgaw and worked there one year. I had taught high school, taught eighth grade. It was called junior high then. Taught eighth grade along with the choruses. Then after that year, I finally got here and then I stayed here for 25 years and this is here. | 23:46 |
Chris Stewart | Where have you been teaching? | 24:38 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Just about all of the elementary schools. Back to Peabody, where I've went. | 24:41 |
Chris Stewart | A great big circle. | 24:47 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Gregory and Dudley. I don't know whether you've heard about Dudley School? | 24:48 |
Chris Stewart | Uh-huh. That's over in East Wilmington, isn't it? | 24:55 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Mm-hmm. | 24:57 |
Chris Stewart | Dudley? | 24:57 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yeah. | 24:58 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No, no, no, no. Dudley is over— | 24:58 |
Chris Stewart | Did it used to be? | 25:00 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Uh-uh. | 25:01 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | That's Blount. | 25:01 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Blount is over there. | 25:01 |
Chris Stewart | Oh, I've got to get these schools in order. | 25:01 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Dudley, yeah. It's kind of hard to keep them straight in mind. Dudley is the one on the extreme North end of town. It's on the other side of where St. Stephen's is— | 25:07 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. | 25:13 |
Clarence Fredlaw | —on the other side of the Red Cross. It's abandoned now. There's nobody attending there. | 25:13 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. | 25:15 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Peabody, the one that's right behind Williston— | 25:19 |
Chris Stewart | Or St. Stephen— | 25:21 |
Clarence Fredlaw | —or right behind St. Stephen's and to get to Dudley, you have to go down that same street, 6th Street, go across the railroad bridge and then you get to Dudley. That's where Dudley is. | 25:23 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. | 25:31 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | So I just about taught at all the Black elementary schools until integration and there was Forest Hills, Bradley Creek, Blair, J.C. Roe— | 25:34 |
Chris Stewart | How come you taught at so many different schools? | 25:50 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I taught music. | 25:53 |
Chris Stewart | Okay, so you were a traveling music teacher. | 25:54 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Mm-hmm. Traveling music teacher. So when I got here, I was just all music. | 25:56 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Excuse me a minute. Would you like to have some Mello Yellow, a soft drink or anything? | 25:56 |
Chris Stewart | Oh, no. I'm fine. Thank you. Thank you. | 25:56 |
Clarence Fredlaw | A Mellow Yellow's a soda, now, so it makes sense. | 26:06 |
Chris Stewart | I know what it is. | 26:07 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I want to make sure you're tape recorder's on. Okay. | 26:09 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | So I worked out of the county for six, seven, eight years and worked in the county for 25 years. | 26:16 |
Chris Stewart | Wow, wow. So you both were with your respective employers for a long time. | 26:22 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Mm-hmm. Long time. | 26:29 |
Chris Stewart | Could you go back and talk a little bit about the application process? You mentioned that if you— | 26:30 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. Like I said, during the period, when they first hired Blacks in '53, they didn't hire any more until I believe it was '61. In the meantime, I had applied two or three times and the last time I went down there about '59, I guess. The police chief told me, said, "It's no need you apply anymore." Said, "You've taken the exam and you've passed it." He says, "I've got three Colored boys now. I don't know what to do with them. There's no need to apply again." So I was still working at Carolina Millwork at the time. Then after them, I got drafted and when I came back out of the service, I applied again. I was hired that time. It was a different chief. | 26:38 |
Chris Stewart | How come you wanted to be a police officer? Besides the uniform? | 27:31 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I just liked people. I like to be around people. I like to talk to people. I like to do things for people, good things, and I guess that's my biggest drawing card was just I like people. In a police position, you get great opportunities to help people and I don't mean you got to give them a new heart or anything. But I get just as much enjoyment out of directing a truck driver of how to get to a destination in town as I would to getting to a wreck and maybe pulling somebody out of a burning car. I guess that's maybe about the only way I can describe it. I just like people. | 27:38 |
Chris Stewart | Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Do the two of you have any advice for young people today, given your experience? Any advice on how to live their lives? | 28:25 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I guess my advice would be to be themself. Now, this so-called peer pressure, as they call it and I'm sure it's real to some people, can be misleading. It can be misguiding. It can make people do things that they don't want to do. They do it simply because someone else said it should be done that way. Learn how to respect themselves first and then respect other people. Treat somebody like they would want to be treated. Use common sense and good judgment. I think, I guess that's about the only way I know how to put it. | 28:47 |
Chris Stewart | Mm-hmm, okay. What about you, ma'am? | 29:40 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I think mine would be saying, think for yourself. When you're trying to decide whether you should do or don't do, it should be something within. It should be this gut feeling. It should be this what you have been, if you have been taught, it should be this gut feeling that would help to guide you as to whether you should or whether you shouldn't. I think the main thing is just think for yourself. | 29:45 |
Clarence Fredlaw | That's it. Not cutting across her, but that's what I meant about peer pressure. Don't do anything just because somebody else said do it. Do it because you feel like it's the right thing to do, not because you want to get with the in-crowd, or be in with the in-crowd. But follow your own inner thoughts and feelings. Make sure that those inner thoughts and feelings are pure and wholesome. Built on principle, not on some just whim. | 30:19 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I would also say, whatever it is that you do, be the best of whatever that it is that you do. Whether you want to strive just to be a street cleaner, be the best street cleaner there is. | 30:56 |
Chris Stewart | This is the teacher talking. I can hear that. Oh, I can hear it. Yes. | 31:17 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I think you're able to reach whatever goal you have set. It depends on you. It's there and I feel like whatever you want to do, you can do it. | 31:23 |
Chris Stewart | Are there any questions that I should have asked that I didn't? | 31:38 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No. | 31:44 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I think you covered just about— | 31:47 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No, you've been thorough and you've made me lick the life out of them. | 31:47 |
Chris Stewart | To say the very least, right? | 31:47 |
Clarence Fredlaw | To say, yeah. | 31:47 |
Chris Stewart | Well, I tell you, I have a couple things left that I need to do. One is to take biographical information from each of you. What we do is we gather biographical information to accompany the tapes, so that people have—I asked you a couple of times about dates, but I generally tend not to ask people about dates. But this is the names-and-dates portion of the interview. | 31:54 |
Chris Stewart | So the kind of information that we look for or that we ask about here are birthdays, parent's birthdays, siblings. We right down work history, education history, those kinds of things. So I'm going to ask both of you the same question and I'll fill out both of these forms, for a form for each of you. It shouldn't take too long, but since I'm filling out two at a time, it might take a little bit longer than it normally does. I'll start with ladies first. | 32:23 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yeah. | 33:09 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Do you want another table, or? | 33:09 |
Chris Stewart | Oh, no. I'm messing up your sofa. | 33:10 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No. I'm just wondering— | 33:12 |
Chris Stewart | No. I'm fine. Your full name, ma'am? | 33:15 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Okay, Margaret Bailey Fredlaw. | 33:17 |
Chris Stewart | Bailey is your maiden name? | 33:32 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Mm-hmm. | 33:34 |
Chris Stewart | Your current address is 155— | 33:36 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Ginger Road. | 33:38 |
Chris Stewart | Your current phone number? | 33:45 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | 799-3547. | 33:48 |
Chris Stewart | How would you like your name to appear in any kind of written material that might result from this tape? | 33:52 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Well, I would say just as it is there. | 34:02 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. Now, we'll do the same information for you, your full name, sir? | 34:05 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Clarence Fredlaw Sr. | 34:18 |
Chris Stewart | Well, I have all the address and is that also how you'd like your name to appear? Your birthdate? | 34:29 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | November 19th, 1936. | 34:52 |
Chris Stewart | And you were born here in Wilmington? | 34:56 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Mm-hmm. | 35:00 |
Chris Stewart | Your mother's name? | 35:09 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Blanche Robinson Bailey. | 35:10 |
Chris Stewart | Robinson's her maiden name? | 35:21 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Uh-huh. | 35:23 |
Chris Stewart | Her birthdate? | 35:25 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | 19— | 35:26 |
Chris Stewart | Are you thinking of this now? | 35:28 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Oh. | 35:28 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | 1903. | 35:32 |
Chris Stewart | When did she die? | 35:36 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Was it three years ago, Clarence? | 35:38 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, I believe three years ago. May, wasn't it? | 35:40 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | June. | 35:45 |
Clarence Fredlaw | June, yeah. June. | 35:45 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | June 14th. | 35:48 |
Chris Stewart | Was she born here in Wilmington? | 35:54 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Mm-hmm. Yes. | 35:55 |
Chris Stewart | She was a housewife? | 36:02 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yes. | 36:04 |
Chris Stewart | Your father's full name? | 36:05 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Charles Bailey. Charles T. Bailey. | 36:06 |
Chris Stewart | His date of birth? | 36:14 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I'm not sure about his date of birth. | 36:16 |
Chris Stewart | Is he still living? | 36:23 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | No. I can get it though. He was 53 when he died and he died in 1954, so what year? | 36:26 |
Chris Stewart | 1899? No, 1902. 1901. | 36:45 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Probably, uh-huh. | 36:45 |
Chris Stewart | He died in '54? | 36:45 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Died in— | 36:45 |
Chris Stewart | And he was 53 years old? | 36:45 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Mm-hmm. That was my senior year. Okay, he died in '54. Yeah, and he was 53, so it was 19 what? | 36:51 |
Chris Stewart | '01. He was born here as well? | 37:04 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Here. | 37:06 |
Chris Stewart | His occupation was? | 37:11 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I'll just say laborer. | 37:12 |
Chris Stewart | Right. Your birthdate? | 37:16 |
Clarence Fredlaw | April 23rd, '36. | 37:23 |
Chris Stewart | And you were born here in Wilmington? | 37:30 |
Clarence Fredlaw | In Wilmington. | 37:40 |
Chris Stewart | Your mother's name? | 37:40 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Mary Fredlaw. | 37:42 |
Chris Stewart | Excuse me. Do you know her maiden name? | 37:44 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Smith. | 37:48 |
Chris Stewart | Her date of birth? | 37:50 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I'm not sure on that. | 37:53 |
Chris Stewart | When did she die? | 37:58 |
Clarence Fredlaw | She died in 1978. | 37:59 |
Chris Stewart | Do you know how old she was? | 38:07 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I think it's funny I don't know these things we're talking about here. | 38:09 |
Chris Stewart | I don't think it's funny at all. This is not unusual. I mean, I'm 31 years old and I don't know my mother's and father's date of birth. | 38:11 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Mama was, when she died, she was in her 60s I believe. I know she was in her 60s, late 60s. | 38:21 |
Chris Stewart | So she was probably born somewhere around 1910? | 38:37 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Right. Yeah. | 38:40 |
Chris Stewart | Somewhere around there. It's funny because when we remember things, we don't remember dates. We remember things more in terms of events— | 38:41 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, right. | 38:51 |
Chris Stewart | —in our lives. That's why this is a really hard part and a lot of us don't like this. I mean, we don't like having to ask these questions, but what can I say? Historian says they are sort of— | 38:51 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, I understand. | 39:03 |
Chris Stewart | She was born in Augusta? | 39:05 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Augusta, Georgia. | 39:08 |
Chris Stewart | Her occupation? She was a domestic worker? | 39:15 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Domestic worker. | 39:16 |
Chris Stewart | Your father's name? | 39:26 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Walter Fredlaw Sr. | 39:27 |
Chris Stewart | His date of birth? | 39:37 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I don't know his date of birth and they were around the same age, so we're talking about 1909, 1910, somewhere around there. | 39:37 |
Chris Stewart | And he died when you were five, did you say? | 40:01 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. | 40:01 |
Chris Stewart | So somewhere around '41? | 40:01 |
Clarence Fredlaw | '41. | 40:01 |
Chris Stewart | He was born in Augusta? | 40:01 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Augusta, yeah. | 40:03 |
Chris Stewart | He was a carpenter, did you say? | 40:08 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Carpenter, right. | 40:09 |
Chris Stewart | Now, it's your brother's and sister's portion. | 40:18 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Oh, okay. | 40:20 |
Chris Stewart | Want to know how many? | 40:22 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Okay, I have a brother whose name was Charles Bailey Jr. What year? He was born in 1934. | 40:25 |
Chris Stewart | He was born in Wilmington? | 40:40 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yes. And I have a brother, Thomas R. Bailey. He just told me his age. Was it 49? I think he said he just turned 50 and it was when he was 50-some. So he was born in—Was that '93? Was that '43? I think it was '43. Five from nine is four. Mm-hmm. It was 1943. I only have two brothers. | 40:41 |
Chris Stewart | And you are second? | 41:24 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Oh, I'm the oldest. | 41:26 |
Chris Stewart | You're the eldest? | 41:27 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Mm-hmm. | 41:29 |
Chris Stewart | When were you born? | 41:29 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | '36. | 41:30 |
Chris Stewart | Charles Bailey was born in '34, did you say? | 41:32 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Mm-hmm. | 41:35 |
Chris Stewart | So then he would— | 41:36 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | He's two years younger. | 41:37 |
Chris Stewart | So then he would be— | 41:39 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | No. He was born in '38. Yeah, '38. Uh-huh. | 41:39 |
Chris Stewart | Okay, and you're number one. | 41:39 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Mm-hmm. | 41:39 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. Children? | 41:50 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | We have two. Lakasha. | 41:52 |
Chris Stewart | Can you spell? | 41:59 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | L-A-K-A-S-H-A. Lakasha Shawn Fredlaw. | 42:00 |
Chris Stewart | S-H— | 42:08 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | S-H-A-W-N. That's the way we spell it. She's 19 in March, so she was born 19, oh, terrible. | 42:09 |
Chris Stewart | '74? | 42:24 |
Clarence Fredlaw | '74. | 42:34 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Yeah. That's right. March 29th, 1974. Clarence Jr., you'll have to help me out on this one, Clarence. | 42:34 |
Clarence Fredlaw | '57, July the 2nd, '57. | 42:37 |
Chris Stewart | July, did you say? | 42:49 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Mm-hmm. July, 2nd. | 42:50 |
Chris Stewart | Do you have any grandchildren? | 42:59 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Mm-hmm. We have one. | 43:02 |
Clarence Fredlaw | This boy, how old is he? That's Clarence Jr. | 43:08 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | He was born February 1993. | 43:12 |
Chris Stewart | What's his name? | 43:17 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Brandon Fredlaw. | 43:19 |
Chris Stewart | Okay, now, which are your brothers and sisters, sir. | 43:31 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Okay, James Fredlaw is the oldest. Now, these birthdates—Well, let's go through the names first. | 43:36 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. | 43:44 |
Clarence Fredlaw | James Fredlaw, Margare Fredlaw. | 43:44 |
Chris Stewart | Is she married? Did she ever marry, Margare? | 43:52 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. Williams. | 43:54 |
Chris Stewart | Mm-hmm. | 43:54 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Walter Fredlaw Jr. | 43:54 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | You wanted the deceased and the living? | 43:54 |
Chris Stewart | Mm-hmm. | 44:13 |
Clarence Fredlaw | James Fredlaw. Irving Lynn Fredlaw. | 44:13 |
Chris Stewart | Mm-hmm. | 44:22 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Clarence Fredlaw— | 44:22 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | That's you. | 44:26 |
Clarence Fredlaw | —Sr., and Louise Fredlaw Maclaren. Louise was the youngest and I was born in '36. Louise was born in '38, thereabouts. | 44:45 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. | 44:51 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Next would be me, April of '36 and then it would be Irving. Irving was a year older than I, so he was born in '35. Margare— | 45:05 |
Chris Stewart | What about James and Walter? | 45:35 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. James was born. He was older that I was so he would have been born in '34 and Walter was older than him. He would have been born about '32. Next would be Margare about 1931 and James was born about 1929 or 1930. | 45:37 |
Chris Stewart | Were they born in Wilmington? | 46:22 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yes, yes. All the children were born in Wilmington. I'm sorry I don't have some better dates for you on that. I could probably come up with— | 46:24 |
Chris Stewart | No. I mean, like I said, I can understand. We've already got the children and grandchildren. You've always lived here in Wilmington? | 46:37 |
Clarence Fredlaw | All my life. | 46:44 |
Chris Stewart | Mm-hmm. | 46:44 |
Chris Stewart | —history, starting from the beginning. | 0:02 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Okay. I had 12 years of public school. Graduated from Williston Industrial High School. | 0:05 |
Chris Stewart | You started at Williston Primary? | 0:14 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I started at Peabody. | 0:16 |
Chris Stewart | Peabody? And you didn't go—You went just two grades, did you say? | 0:27 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, I think just two grades, because we moved from Woodside down— | 0:30 |
Chris Stewart | And then, you went to Williston Primary? | 0:33 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Mm-hmm. | 0:34 |
Chris Stewart | And then, Williston High School? | 0:38 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Right. | 0:40 |
Chris Stewart | What grade, at Williston Primary, did you go through? | 0:46 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I believe it was the 6th or 7th, I think. We go to the 6th grade? I think it was. I guess it must have been the 6th. Let me count backwards. I went to Williston, because, at that time, high school started at the 9th grade. And I went from Williston Junior to—Williston Primary to—You can't go from primary to high school, can we? | 0:49 |
Chris Stewart | No, I can't imagine. | 1:34 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No. No, no, no. You don't. | 1:36 |
Chris Stewart | But I've had some people tell me, that they went to primary through 8th grade. | 1:38 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, that was it. We went through the 8th grade, because when I left there, I went to Williston. That was it. | 1:43 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. So, that was through high school. Did you have any other schooling? | 1:50 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, I went two years to Wilmington College. | 1:56 |
Chris Stewart | Mm-hmm. When was this? | 2:00 |
Clarence Fredlaw | From '55 to '57. I came out with an Associate of Arts degree. Elementary Education is what I was doing for. | 2:07 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. Now, we're to your work history. And what we'd like, is those jobs that were most important to you, dating from most recent, to the past. | 2:27 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Okay. The police force. Well, the police department. | 2:44 |
Chris Stewart | What was your official title? | 2:57 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I was a Sergeant in—You mean when I left, or—? | 3:00 |
Chris Stewart | Mm-hmm. | 3:04 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I was a Sergeant in charge of Professional Standards section, which is commonly known as Internal Affairs. Before I went there, I was at Carolina Millwork. But now, I had an Army break. Well, while I was working at Carolina Millwork. | 3:04 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. You were in the police force from '64— | 3:32 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Until '92. | 3:33 |
Chris Stewart | '92, Carolina Millwork. What I'll do is, let's just make it one block, and then, we'll go ahead and do the Army, for that time, within that one block. What exactly was your job title at Carolina Millwork? | 3:34 |
Clarence Fredlaw | When I left there, I was a cabinet maker. | 3:56 |
Chris Stewart | And this was from—? | 4:01 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I was at Carolina from about '57, until I went to the police department in '64. | 4:04 |
Chris Stewart | And when were you drafted? | 4:17 |
Clarence Fredlaw | September the 12th, 1961. | 4:19 |
Chris Stewart | '61 to '63? | 4:24 |
Clarence Fredlaw | '63. September 12th '63. | 4:28 |
Chris Stewart | How come you remember that date? | 4:33 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I won't never get that. | 4:35 |
Chris Stewart | Well, it's a question. | 4:45 |
Clarence Fredlaw | It's just something that sticks out in your mind. | 4:45 |
Chris Stewart | Mm-hmm. And which date was that? One for what? | 4:46 |
Clarence Fredlaw | The draft date. | 4:46 |
Chris Stewart | Oh. | 4:49 |
Clarence Fredlaw | It's just—I tell you, you hear people talking about experiences, and what have you, but the Army is one thing, that you hear the guys talk about, and the things that they went through. But you never know what it's like, until you go through it. I mean, it was a varied experience. I got a chance to travel, and see things I probably never would have. And it's just something that you remember. Up until recently, when I just, I guess, threw it out of my mind. I can remember my Army serial number. At that time, you had a different number than your social security number. I can't even remember it, now. I still got my dog tags. But it's just something that sticks out in your mind. | 4:50 |
Chris Stewart | You were drafted for Vietnam? | 5:32 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No, no. I was drafted at— | 5:35 |
Chris Stewart | '61, I'm trying to figure this out. | 5:36 |
Clarence Fredlaw | What caused the draft, at that time, was the Berlin Crisis. | 5:41 |
Chris Stewart | Oh, okay. | 5:44 |
Clarence Fredlaw | The Russians had shut down the corridors in Berlin. It was East and West Berlin, at that time. And the Russians backed it up, and Nikita Khrushchev had shut down the air corridors. | 5:44 |
Chris Stewart | So, you were over in Germany? | 5:56 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, I was over in Germany for— | 5:58 |
Chris Stewart | I didn't realize they were drafting during that period. | 5:58 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Well, I think this was, probably, the next to the last draft, I believe. And they thought it was going to—That war might break out, and they called up a lot of people, at that time. That's why—They usually, when they drafted, it's about 19, 20, 21 years old. | 5:58 |
Chris Stewart | Right. Right. | 6:21 |
Clarence Fredlaw | And I hadn't been in, and all those that hadn't been in, when they started drafting, they were the first ones to call. So, that's why I was—They were so late when I was called. | 6:26 |
Chris Stewart | That's why we were so lucky. | 6:33 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. So— | 6:37 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. Any work prior, now, to—Let's see, '57, that you want down on here? | 6:39 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No, from before '57, I was a janitor at St. James Episcopal Church at 3rd and Market. | 6:45 |
Chris Stewart | And you said, for about a year? Is that what you said? | 6:59 |
Clarence Fredlaw | A little over a year. About a year and a half. Let's put it that way. | 7:07 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. So, that was from what? About '55 to '57? | 7:07 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah. That would be about right. | 7:13 |
Chris Stewart | During the time you were at Wilmington College? | 7:14 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, that would've been right in that same period of time. | 7:18 |
Chris Stewart | You want to put the pool hall down? | 7:23 |
Clarence Fredlaw | You can. | 7:25 |
Chris Stewart | I'm teasing you. Sorry. | 7:25 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I don't have a problem with that. I worked at the pool hall, I guess, about a year, I believe. | 7:26 |
Chris Stewart | What was the name of the pool hall? | 7:37 |
Clarence Fredlaw | It was Dixie. They called it the Dixie. They called it the Dixie. | 7:42 |
Chris Stewart | And you worked there from—? | 7:54 |
Clarence Fredlaw | It would've been '54 to '55. Something like that, yeah. Somewhere. | 7:55 |
Chris Stewart | Now, it's your turn. You've always lived here in Wilmington? | 8:15 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Mm-hmm. | 8:19 |
Chris Stewart | Now, well, you were working in— | 8:20 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Oh! Well, when I was working in Onslow County? | 8:23 |
Chris Stewart | Uh-huh. | 8:33 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Do you want to know how long, or when I worked there? | 8:34 |
Chris Stewart | Yeah. | 8:37 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Okay. Let me see. I finished in '58 to '64. Okay, all right. During the years, '64, '65, I was in Norfolk. '65, '66, Burgaw. Then, I was back here, '66 to '91. '91 is when I retired from there. | 8:39 |
Chris Stewart | Mm-hmm. | 9:31 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | June of '91. | 9:31 |
Chris Stewart | Now, your education history. Starting from the beginning. | 9:40 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Elementary. | 9:44 |
Chris Stewart | Peabody? | 9:45 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Peabody. You want to name the schools? | 9:46 |
Chris Stewart | Just the name of the schools, and what grades. | 9:49 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Okay. Peabody, grades one through five. Gregory, 6th grade. Little Williston, 7th, 8th, and 9th. 10th was Williston Senior High; 10th to 12th. | 9:51 |
Chris Stewart | Then, Claflin. | 10:26 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Claflin, I went to Claflin in '54. Stayed there, '54 to '58. | 10:27 |
Chris Stewart | That was in Orangeburg, did you say? | 10:32 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Mm-hmm. Orangeburg, South Carolina. | 10:34 |
Chris Stewart | And you received a degree? | 10:39 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | B.A. | 10:42 |
Chris Stewart | In—? | 10:45 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I did not do any more extensive—Didn't have any extensive training, but I went to—I don't know what you call it, where I come. During the summer I'd go to—Gosh, what do you call a thing, when they'd have—For example, East Carolina would have [indistinct 00:11:12], what do you call it? | 10:47 |
Chris Stewart | Like seminars or conferences or— | 11:12 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | No, it wasn't conferences, and they weren't seminars. They would just have— | 11:16 |
Chris Stewart | Like in-services? | 11:19 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I guess you would call it that. They would have classes, and I took them. I don't know what you call it. | 11:21 |
Chris Stewart | In what kind of—? | 11:31 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I took some in psychology, and it would be human growth. I guess that was a part of human growth and development. These were all the classes that I took. | 11:33 |
Chris Stewart | What were you pursuing? | 11:49 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Nothing really. | 11:51 |
Chris Stewart | Just taking classes that were interesting to you? | 11:52 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I just wanted—That's about all, as far as the— | 11:53 |
Chris Stewart | And your work history? | 12:05 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | The only time I worked, other than teaching, was one summer—I think it was the summer of my sophomore year in college, that I wanted to work. And my brothers didn't want me to work. They said I was too small. But I went on anyway. And my friend and I, we worked at Wrightsville Beach. It was the Carolina Yacht Club. | 12:08 |
Chris Stewart | When was this? When did you work at the Carolina—? | 12:45 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | That was at my sophomore—The summer of my sophomore year— | 12:49 |
Chris Stewart | In college? | 12:49 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Let's see; '58, '59, '60. So, it had to be '58, '59, '60. So, would that be '60? I guess the summer of '60; '58, '59, '60. The summer of '60. I worked there during the summer. | 12:51 |
Chris Stewart | What did you do? | 13:13 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | That was a private club. So, we would wash the dishes after the—I guess, the families would come. And I guess, that was about the biggest. Wash the dishes, and clean up the showers. | 13:16 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | And I'm not really rushing, but I have a meeting at the church, and Reverend Calhoun is not supposed to be there. And I have one at 5:00. | 13:34 |
Chris Stewart | Oh, I see. | 13:42 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | So, how could—Oh, well. So, I was wondering how could I get back to this? | 13:42 |
Chris Stewart | Yeah. Well, I can come back, and finish this. I only have a couple of pages. Or, I could leave it with you. | 13:48 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Well, you can come back. | 13:57 |
Chris Stewart | Yeah. | 13:58 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I think I'd rather you come back, and write it up yourself. | 13:58 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. | 14:01 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | And I don't want to rush you, and I don't want to rush through it. What about Friday? | 14:04 |
Chris Stewart | Friday would be fine. | 14:10 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Okay. Friday evening. Is that okay, Clarence? And I don't have anything on Friday. Tomorrow, I have choir rehearsal. So, I wouldn't want to do it. So, Friday about what time? Want to say the same time, 2:00? | 14:11 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Yeah, it'd be better, because— | 14:24 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Two o'clock? | 14:25 |
Clarence Fredlaw | —I got to go help my place up there, too. | 14:26 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. That sounds— | 14:32 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | Now, you can stay here and talk with Clarence, and let me run and get my— | 14:32 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. | 14:35 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | —little stuff together. | 14:36 |
Chris Stewart | I'll just be—I'm sorry. | 14:36 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | No, that's— | 14:37 |
Chris Stewart | I'll just keep this separate. Have you ever received any awards or honors, or held any offices, through the police force, or your church? | 14:38 |
Clarence Fredlaw | On the police force, I got the Policeman of the Year award. | 14:50 |
Chris Stewart | Oh, wow. | 14:55 |
Clarence Fredlaw | When did I get that? That would be 1989. | 14:55 |
Chris Stewart | Wow! | 14:55 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Let's see. There's two certificates, that you get as a police officer, is—Let me get it. | 14:55 |
Chris Stewart | Well, I'm sorry, but I'll see you all. And it was nice meeting you. | 14:55 |
Margaret Bailey Fredlaw | I'll see you on Friday. Oh, okay. | 16:57 |
Clarence Fredlaw | This is the Advanced Law Enforcement certificate, and this is a General Intermediate Law Enforcement certificate. You get this one first. And that's the advanced one. | 17:31 |
Chris Stewart | What? You get them—I guess, I don't know. I don't know. | 17:53 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Only after you can show that you have a certain amount of training, as a police officer, can you get those awards? | 17:58 |
Chris Stewart | Okay. | 18:06 |
Clarence Fredlaw | If I had known, what questions you were going to ask, I could have had some of this stuff together. Now, other awards that I have received, as you can tell, the biggest part of my employment was with the police department. These would be the most outstanding, that I can recall. Other things would be Certificate of Training, which we have many, many of those; show that you completed firearms training, CPR training, things of that nature. I'm sure you wouldn't even consider those as an award. I wouldn't think. | 18:07 |
Chris Stewart | Well, I'm going to put Certificate of Training, various certificates for different— | 19:35 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Phases of— | 19:41 |
Chris Stewart | —phases of training. | 19:42 |
Clarence Fredlaw | —police related activities. | 19:43 |
Chris Stewart | Is there anything else you want? | 20:00 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No. | 20:00 |
Chris Stewart | And you've been a lifelong member of St. Stephens. | 20:05 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Mm-hmm. | 20:05 |
Chris Stewart | Been a lifelong member of— | 20:05 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Lifelong member of St. Stephens. | 20:05 |
Chris Stewart | Are there any organizations; civic, community, educational, political organizations, that you belong to now, or have belonged to in the past? | 20:10 |
Clarence Fredlaw | No. None. The only organization, that I ever joined, was the Elks. And that was in the mid to late '50s. And I didn't stay in that very long. I never joined any other type of organization. | 20:19 |
Chris Stewart | Are there any other activities, or interests or hobbies that you have? | 20:42 |
Clarence Fredlaw | I like sports. I like football, baseball. I don't participate in it that much, but I follow up on it. I'm particularly interested in basketball, and ever since my daughter got interested in basketball, when she was going to high school. | 20:50 |
Chris Stewart | Did your daughter play basketball? | 21:12 |
Clarence Fredlaw | She played some in high school. Her last year, she had to stop it, because her knees started giving her trouble. | 21:14 |
Chris Stewart | Oh! | 21:19 |
Clarence Fredlaw | She— | 21:19 |
Chris Stewart | That must have been hard, and her last year, too. | 21:19 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Her knee kept acting up on her. She was a little bit heavy, and that constant pounding on her knees weren't doing them any good. So— | 21:19 |
Chris Stewart | Mm-hmm. | 21:37 |
Clarence Fredlaw | —she gave it up. | 21:37 |
Chris Stewart | Well, there's one final part to this interview, and that's for me to ask you permission, to use the interview, in the collection. And of course, we have a form. | 21:38 |
Clarence Fredlaw | Sure. | 21:50 |
Chris Stewart | Forms for everything, to get permission. And it's called an interview agreement. And what the agreement states is, that you give the rights of the tape, to Duke University, to place in the collection, to make a copy of it, to place then, in a Wilmington collection, for scholarly use. So, that's for use in classrooms, or for researchers to come and write about. About Wilmington, about African American history, about being a policeman. I mean, about whatever people are going to think to use. And we have an agreement, a form, if you'd like to take a look at it? | 21:52 |
Item Info
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